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#1
OK. Sorry for the confusion. I'm going to to try to make this as clear as possible.

You will be composing two pieces of music

Part 1: Start by coming up with a theme or a motive or four bars of something. Proceed to write a piece of music based off that idea.

Part 2: Using the same theme/motive four bars, write an entirely different piece of music that makes just as much musical sense as the first piece you composed.

There are no formal restrictions, although I suggest ternary form because it's a good way to deal with the problem of digression and return.

Here's an example of what I mean using ternary form.

s= same section
d=different section and different transitions.

A B A'
sA dB dA'

The A sections don't have to be exactly the same. Just similar enough that we can tell they bwere clearly based off of the same idea.

If you're lazy/don't have a ton of time, you can take a previous piece you've written and use that as your starting point to write your second piece. Post both pieces at the end so we can see the difference. If you feel like it, writing about you thought process during composition would be appreciated.

Deadline: August 15th

Participants (in non alphabetical order):
evolucian

Duanecalpdrix

Stalk027

Neitsche

chronic_stp

505088K

Xiaoxi

Mathedes

Livingtime
Last edited by Duaneclapdrix at Jul 23, 2013,
#3
So a remix basically?


Or, for example, if you had something like The Star Spangle Banner or Over The Rainbow or whatever, and the first four bars are pretty recognizable, but after the first four bars you just somewhere completely different.

Utilizing our abilities to take an idea and make to completely different pieces out of one idea?
And we will weave in and out of sanity unnoticed
Swirling in blissfully restless visions of all our bleary progress
Glowing in radiant madness
Last edited by TDKshorty at Jul 9, 2013,
#4
It'd be more interesting if there were a universal 4 bars that everybody participating in this challenge had to use.
#5
Quote by GoldenGuitar
It'd be more interesting if there were a universal 4 bars that everybody participating in this challenge had to use.

Yeah, this seems more fun
And we will weave in and out of sanity unnoticed
Swirling in blissfully restless visions of all our bleary progress
Glowing in radiant madness
#6
I lovelovelovelovelovelove this idea. I agree that maybe there should be the same starting point for everyone to jump off from. Just a skeletal idea though, like a four bar melody without any kind of harmonic underlay or anything else so people can really take off from it in any number of directions.

I'll probably be unable to participate, but I might be able to do something if it gets off the ground.
#7
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
I lovelovelovelovelovelove this idea. I agree that maybe there should be the same starting point for everyone to jump off from. Just a skeletal idea though, like a four bar melody without any kind of harmonic underlay or anything else so people can really take off from it in any number of directions.

I'll probably be unable to participate, but I might be able to do something if it gets off the ground.


Agreed, I'll totally do it if we did that. I'm really not clear on what the OP wanted lol
#8
I think he was saying, write a song, take the first four bars, and use them to write a different song and compare how different they are. However, a competition where the first four bars are the same for everyone would be so much better, as if everyone could come up with their own melodies, their entry would only be as good as their starting melody.
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#9
Quote by CelestialGuitar
I think he was saying, write a song, take the first four bars, and use them to write a different song and compare how different they are. However, a competition where the first four bars are the same for everyone would be so much better, as if everyone could come up with their own melodies, their entry would only be as good as their starting melody.

Yeah that's kind of what he was saying and I actually think that would be a better exercise (by the way, it's a challenge, not a competition, no one wins, no one's competing). The idea is that you come up with four bars worth of material and have to use it and develop it in two different ways. This was kind of the same idea as my (failed) idea for the ABA' challenge, just that in mine you took material and rehashed it in the same piece.

The real problem with this idea is participation. It's hard enough to get people to write one piece, never mind two, which is why adjusting it to be everyone writes a piece off the same material might get more people into it.
#10
That sounds awesome. I'd love to participate to some contest like this.
#11
JRF and Celestialguitar have it right. I meant that you would write two different pieces based off the same idea. I often come up with four bars of something that I really like and then get stuck. The point of the challenge is to hone your ability to see musical possibilities so you don't get stuck as often.

How would we choose which four bars to use if we all wanted to use the same beginning?
We have a resident atonalist, I'm trying to mess around with jazz and extended tonality or whatever and we have some classical guys. It seems like finding one idea to use for everybody would be difficult. The principles of development and musical coherence are valuable to practice no matter what the style is, and I think people would be more invested in their pieces if they wrote their own melodies.
#13
Quote by Duaneclapdrix
JRF and Celestialguitar have it right. I meant that you would write two different pieces based off the same idea. I often come up with four bars of something that I really like and then get stuck. The point of the challenge is to hone your ability to see musical possibilities so you don't get stuck as often.

How would we choose which four bars to use if we all wanted to use the same beginning?
We have a resident atonalist, I'm trying to mess around with jazz and extended tonality or whatever and we have some classical guys. It seems like finding one idea to use for everybody would be difficult. The principles of development and musical coherence are valuable to practice no matter what the style is, and I think people would be more invested in their pieces if they wrote their own melodies.

Ugh... The more you talk about it the more I think it's a really good idea. I still think it would be hard to get people involved though.
#16
I'll do it.

One question though, do the first four bars of each piece have to be exactly the same material, or can we have a looser relationship, like the first four bars of each piece containing the same melodic line reharmonised?
.
#17
This threat inspired my to write an encore piece with the same beginning as another piece in my concert reportoire.

This way the audience will think "oh he doesn't have more pieces memorised so he just plays the Bach again, lame." and then be surpised by some really weird stuff by me.

I'm most likely not going to be bothered to write it down in a way that you can read. (I have very bad handwriting) but I might make a video if I'm happy with the result.

Quote by Nietsche
I'll do it.

One question though, do the first four bars of each piece have to be exactly the same material, or can we have a looser relationship, like the first four bars of each piece containing the same melodic line reharmonised?


I'd say make it exactly the same. It's more fun that way imho. Theres no point in just writing a piece that sort of has a simular theme to another piece as that happens naturally already. To me, this is about the infinity of directions that the exact same beginning can lead to.
#18
I'd like to join too. I just downloaded Musescore and am trying to get the hang of it. It's very different from other composition software I've tried, but Ill work on getting stuff Im working on in guitar pro over to musescore
#19
Quote by Nietsche
I'll do it.

One question though, do the first four bars of each piece have to be exactly the same material, or can we have a looser relationship, like the first four bars of each piece containing the same melodic line reharmonised?


I don't think it would matter, as long as it's still based off of the same musical idea. The beginning doesn't have to be four bars either. Just make sure the A sections are recognizably derived from the same idea.
#20
Quote by Duaneclapdrix

How would we choose which four bars to use if we all wanted to use the same beginning?
We have a resident atonalist, I'm trying to mess around with jazz and extended tonality or whatever and we have some classical guys. It seems like finding one idea to use for everybody would be difficult. The principles of development and musical coherence are valuable to practice no matter what the style is, and I think people would be more invested in their pieces if they wrote their own melodies.

I don't any problem here, you can take one idea and interpret in any idiom you want, it again depends on the skill of the composer. As things are now, I'm out.
#21
Now do we have the four bar idea that everyone can use yet? Or was that just a stab in the dark in the hope that someone else would do it, Duane?
#22
Quote by GoldenGuitar
I don't any problem here, you can take one idea and interpret in any idiom you want, it again depends on the skill of the composer. As things are now, I'm out.


Well, what four bars do you suggest?

I would feel restricted using four bars of music I'd probably find dull. I don't think everybody using the same idea would lead to a better understanding of composition at the end of the challenge and I think it would turn it into to much of a competition anyway.
#23
Let's use the melody of the first 4 bars of a piece.
Let's use this piece:


EDIT: Sorry I didn't read the thread all the way through I just kind of jumped in here. We're not doing the four bar melody thing right?
Last edited by macashmack at Jul 10, 2013,
#26
We're probably not all going to agree on the same four bars from an existing piece. What could potentially be interesting is if we all took a pre-existing piece of our own choosing and worked out a new piece beginning with the first four bars. This has the advantage that everyone only has to write one piece, and we don't have to through the process of trying to agree on an opening for everyone to work from.
.
#27
ok cool... only the melody though right? The harmony being up to us?

Unless someone with big balls takes charge and says "This is what we're using .... now stfu and get to it"... or something like that
Last edited by evolucian at Jul 10, 2013,
#28
Quote by Nietsche
We're probably not all going to agree on the same four bars from an existing piece. What could potentially be interesting is if we all took a pre-existing piece of our own choosing and worked out a new piece beginning with the first four bars. This has the advantage that everyone only has to write one piece, and we don't have to through the process of trying to agree on an opening for everyone to work from.


This is what I wanted to do from the beginning. People seemed to want to use the same four bars though, so I figure I'll let the unwashed masses duke it out and decide on the four bars while I'm busy composing. It seems like you could write your own four bars just as easy as having them chosen for you, the exercise would stay the same. If someone wants to choose them then go a head, I'd rather just write my own. It seems like this has gotten far more complicated than it needs to be.
#30
I don't think to have the skills to take part in this, but I really think you should use the same 4 bars to begin with...it would be so much more intresting.
Also, if you don't like them, it will just be more intresting to see how you turn it into something you like after that first 4 bars.

Just my opinion of course...
#31
Would be more interesting if it was the same idea for everybody...

Can you extend this to at least Aug 15?

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#32
We can extend the deadline.

My main problem with using the same four bars is I wouldn't know how to go about choosing them, coupled with the problem of getting everybody to agree with the decision, like Neitsche said.

I seem to remember in "Theory of Harmony" Schonburg talking about how it was silly for students to take a melody by another composer and re-harmonize it, because when the composer wrote the melody, he conceived it with the harmony. Schonburg then elaborated for a couple of more pages full of run on sentences/paragraph combos as he liked to do, so it might be funny to use the shonburg peice. The melody seems like it could be problematic for some people though... And we've come full circle. It seems like it'd just be easier for everyone to write their own pieces.
Last edited by Duaneclapdrix at Jul 10, 2013,
#33
I would join if I got to use a melody that was already written. I haven't had much composition experience recently, but I could come up with something off of 4-bars of melody.

I think it's an interesting exercise to take another composer's melody and re-write the harmony. It allows you to view it from different harmonic backgrounds and play with weird harmonies to completely change a piece.

I personally don't have a problem with ANY melody given to me It's not like it'll sound how it was written originally anyways!
#35
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
b5 is back? da fuq?

I hang out in other parts of UG I got tired of the same questions and just kinda... popped myself away!

Nice to see most of the regs are still here.
#36
Quote by Duaneclapdrix

I seem to remember in "Theory of Harmony" Schonburg talking about how it was silly for students to take a melody by another composer and re-harmonize it, because when the composer wrote the melody, he conceived it with the harmony. Schonburg then elaborated for a couple of more pages full of run on sentences/paragraph combos as he liked to do, so it might be funny to use the shonburg peice. The melody seems like it could be problematic for some people though... And we've come full circle. It seems like it'd just be easier for everyone to write their own pieces.

If someone can't handle a simple melody, that's their own shortcoming and this alone should be pretty revealing.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#37
I was kind of poking fun at how highly Mr. Schonburg valued his opinions on music despite the fact the some of them were a bit silly. I always thought that particular tidbit I read was odd because many composers have done variations and used well know folk melodies. I might be remembering it wrong. It's been a while since I read Theory of Harmony.

Lets use the Schonburg piece as our first four bars then. It's decided. Unless anyone objects. Keep in mind that you would still have to write two pieces based off of those four bars. The challenge isn't about all of us writing one piece each based off of the same material, it's about you, the individual, writing two different pieces based of the same material. Otherwise you're just writing a piece as usual. Which is why I thought it was odd that everyone seemed so hung up on the beginning of the pieces, when it's about what happens after the beginning.

Since the challenge requires you to write two pieces based off of the same idea I also thought people would be more likely to complete it if they were personally invested in the idea. You're going to be spending over a month of you life with it, you'd better like it.

If you get that done you can also do your own piece as well.
Last edited by Duaneclapdrix at Jul 11, 2013,
#38
Wait...I completely missed this 2 piece thing. Why do we need 2 pieces??

edit: I just saw the Schoenberg line you guys are referring to...are you sure you want to use that? That is.....pretty ambitious.....

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Jul 11, 2013,
#39
The point was to write a piece of music. Then write another piece of music using the same idea or beginning and to take it in an entirely different direction in a way that made just as much musical sense as the first piece, so as to practice seeing all the musical ideas contained within a phrase or concept you came up with. That's why I wanted people to write their own pieces, or use a piece they'd already written.

I have to go to bed. Got a dentist appointment in the morning. I'll try to clarify more tomorrow.

EDIT: I was kidding about the Schonburg. I decided to give the people what they wanted, four bars of music. They asked for it...
Last edited by Duaneclapdrix at Jul 11, 2013,
#40
So like cyclical motif...

I guess that has merit but can I stick with 1 piece? I won't have time for 2 and I'd like to try "making the most of it" in that one piece.

If you want to make it more challenging try a 2 or even 1 bar idea instead of 4. Sometimes it's even just one little figure!!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKFzy7tEXu4

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
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Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
Last edited by Xiaoxi at Jul 11, 2013,
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