Poll: Which is more fundamental
Poll Options
View poll results: Which is more fundamental
Individual rights, which then lead to collective rights
60 70%
Collective rights, which then lead to individual rights
26 30%
Voters: 86.
Page 1 of 3
#1
Is it the right of the individual, or the right of the collective?

Right of the collective: individual rights are deduced from collective rights, but are more limited.
Right of the individual: necessitates collective rights, but remains more focused on the individual


This is not a right/wrong issue, it's an opinionated issue. I'm genuinely curious as to whether people think society is composed primary of collectives or individuals, and the resultant implications on our rights.

EDIT: This was inspired in part by the "preacher got arrested for blabla" thread.

See, if you believe that society is based primarily on the collective, then you will be completely okay with limiting some individual rights (like freedom of speech) in favor of promoting collective rights.

However, if you believe that society is based primarily on the individual, then you will not be in favor of limiting individual rights for the collective.
Last edited by progdude93 at Jul 10, 2013,
#3
Quote by progdude93
This is not a right/wrong issue, it's an opinionated issue.


Will still turn into a shitstorm
Quote by lambofgod127
btw im in hs and im almost 18 so if u do think she was flirting with me dont say that its wrong im almost a grown man.




༼ ▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ ༽ WE ARE ROB ༼ ▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ ༽
#4
Quote by slash_GNR666
Will still turn into a shitstorm


Oh absolutely. I just put that there so that when it does, I can pretend I didn't want that to happen all along *evil cackle*
#7
Quote by slipknot5678
Should have made this a public poll. >_>


You're right. If any mods could change it from private to public, I'd be most obliged
#8
HOW DARE YOU FORGET ANIMAL RIGHTS
It's over simplified, So what!

Quote by eGraham
I'm going to be on top of what is called a knob
Quote by theguitarist
Big ones can be fun in some ways but generally, they are a pain in the ass.
Quote by Wolfinator-x
I don't know what is going on in this thread or why I have an erection.
#9
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
HOW DARE YOU FORGET ANIMAL RIGHTS


WELL HOOMANS R ANIMALS PROOV ME RONG

xMETALx
#10
Quote by progdude93
WELL HOOMANS R ANIMALS PROOV ME RONG

xMETALx


EXACTLY M7!

ANIMAL RIGHTS ARE BEST RIGHTS BCUZ ERR2 IS A PART OF IT
It's over simplified, So what!

Quote by eGraham
I'm going to be on top of what is called a knob
Quote by theguitarist
Big ones can be fun in some ways but generally, they are a pain in the ass.
Quote by Wolfinator-x
I don't know what is going on in this thread or why I have an erection.
#12
Quote by Thrashtastic15
OP is a mess. Too many baseless assumptions.


Care to point them out?
#13
Quote by progdude93
Care to point them out?


Yeah mate, that one there*points*
oh and that one*points*


oh and that shitty one *points* wtf were you thinking there?

*points* don't forget that one
It's over simplified, So what!

Quote by eGraham
I'm going to be on top of what is called a knob
Quote by theguitarist
Big ones can be fun in some ways but generally, they are a pain in the ass.
Quote by Wolfinator-x
I don't know what is going on in this thread or why I have an erection.
#14
Quote by slipknot5678
Should have made this a public poll. >_>

i'll bet you anything that 80% of the people voting individual are american, and 80% of the people voting collective are the non-americans.
#15
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
Yeah mate, that one there*points*
oh and that one*points*


oh and that shitty one *points* wtf were you thinking there?

*points* don't forget that one


I thought you wouldn't notice that one <.<

Quote by devourke
i'll bet you anything that 80% of the people voting individual are american, and 80% of the people voting collective are the brits.


FTFY
#16
Quote by progdude93
Care to point them out?

It's nearly 5:30 in the morning, I'd rather not waste my time any further.
#17
Quote by Thrashtastic15
It's nearly 5:30 in the morning, I'd rather not waste my time any further.


You poor thing. I'm so sorry I've wasted this much of your time. Is there any way I can make it up to you? I give a pretty mean hand job (years of constant practice is the key).
#18
no britain is definitely not the only country full of people that would go collective over individual.
#19
Quote by devourke
no britain is definitely not the only country full of people that would go collective over individual.


But that's not what you were talking about...... You were talking about people who voted individual vs. collective.
#20
Now I'll take the bait and fall for progdude's evil plan:

I voted that I support collective rights which would lead to individual rights, primarily thinking of economic reasons when I voted for that. This seems to be in response to the thread about the preacher in the UK, so I should have factored that in.

When it comes to economics, income levels, social mobility, etc., I definitely value collective rights more. When it comes to civil rights, I'm a bit mixed. I think everyone is entitled to individual rights but obviously there are limits, and it is difficult for governments or individuals such as ourselves, engaging in a debate like this, to find the perfect balance.

Overall, I still vote in favour of collective rights when I compare each scenario in the form of two city-states. I am aware that this is not the best way to look at the scenario since there are so many what-if scenarios that could alter each one but I'll try my best to make a fair and realistic assessment of each one:

Say city state one is more individual oriented. The city is operated on the idea that individualism will enhance the collective. To facilitate this, there are basic public services, such as police, infrastructure development, etc., but nothing like free public healthcare. There may or may not be some welfare available to the poorer citizens, but either way, citizens are expected to lift themselves out of poverty, which in turn leads to a wider class divide, which may have a negative effect on safety and the average well being. The pluses are low tax rates, allowing you to have more to spend if you are well to do, and to incorporate the civil rights debate, lets say this city has full freedom of speech, with no hate speech laws, no banned films, etc.


City state two has a higher tax rate, and the collective is placed before the individual. The higher tax rate leads to more developed public services for all to enjoy, but may not be seen favourably if you are wealthy. More effort is put into maintaining a narrow class divide, but as a result the median income is lower than it would be in city state number one. Violent crime is lower, but there are faults regarding free speech, including hate speech laws that may be seen as unfair and/or unnecessary, people getting two years jail time for sending joke threats to two-hundred people with murder over facebook, etc. Since I have a bias towards this option, let's assume this city also has a large banned films list, bans certain organisations deemed 'socially unacceptable', etc. in the name of public safety.


I would choose number two over number one. Of course, the scenarios I presented also make baseless assumptions like the OP is being criticised for, but somebody needs to post something to get an argument going at some point.
#21
Which baseless assumptions? I think it's fairly noncontroversial to distinguish between societies like the US and UK by claiming that the US focuses on individual liberty (and derives their collective liberty from that) and vice versa. I think your examples were fine. They weren't perfect, obviously, but they were perfectly relevant.

As far as I see, focusing on individual liberty will likely lead to a greater class divide and a few other issues, and collective liberty will likely lead to the repugnant conclusion (a fascinating ethical theory).
#22
Quote by progdude93
But that's not what you were talking about...... You were talking about people who voted individual vs. collective.

yes. that is what i was talking about. there are more than 2 countries in the world.
#23
Quote by devourke
yes. that is what i was talking about. there are more than 2 countries in the world.


Quote by devourke
i'll bet you anything that 80% of the people voting individual are american, and 80% of the people voting collective are the non-americans.


You were talking about the people who were voting on the poll. Which isn't actually representative of global political views. I don't really care to continue this worthless argument anymore.
#24
Quote by progdude93
You were talking about the people who were voting on the poll. Which isn't actually representative of global political views. I don't really care to continue this worthless argument anymore.

this forum isn't representative of global political views. 80% of the non americans here are gonna be eurotrash, canadians or aus/nz. britain isn't the only country where the citizens are happy with hate speech laws.
#25
only chinese user i know of is snowman. and i haven't seen them post in forever.

and i dunno of any indian users (maybe guitarxo idk)
#26
The most represented non-American group that I've seen on here is definitely the Brits. Maybe they're just really loud (definitely a solid possibility), but by the information I have to go on, it seems like Brits compose the most vocal non-American group. Plus, let's just face the truth, Australia is the UK's prison colony of rejects, and Canada is just like their awkward cousin who apologizes too much.

#realtalk
#27
You'd think that if there was a clear answer to this the majority would go for that.
#28
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
Yeah mate, that one there*points*
oh and that one*points*


oh and that shitty one *points* wtf were you thinking there?

*points* don't forget that one

you're the best
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#29
I believe it was individual rights of a few people, who disguised them as collective rights for the public, so they could continue to grant themselves more individual rights. People in power are arseholes, like that.
Quote by ne14t
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#30
Quote by progdude93
The most represented non-American group that I've seen on here is definitely the Brits. Maybe they're just really loud (definitely a solid possibility), but by the information I have to go on, it seems like Brits compose the most vocal non-American group. Plus, let's just face the truth, Australia is the UK's prison colony of rejects, and Canada is just like their awkward cousin who apologizes too much.

#realtalk


swedes might be few but we're obviously the most important ones.
sometimes I see us in a cymbal splash or in the sound of a car crash
#31
the rite to bare armsis the best r8 WOOO MURICA


COLD DED HANDS


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#33
Quote by JohnnyGenzale
swedes might be few but we're obviously the most important ones.


I feel fairly Swedish about this statement... that is to say, neutral.
#36
Individual rights are all that really exist.

Anything to the contrary is socialistic, commie bullcrap. All there is to it.

Other than maybe the collective right to have individual rights.
#37
Quote by jeflar
Individual rights are all that really exist.

Anything to the contrary is socialistic, commie bullcrap. All there is to it.

Other than maybe the collective right to have individual rights.

This guy gets it
#40
Quote by The_Casinator
You'd think that if there was a clear answer to this the majority would go for that.

lol this.
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