Page 1 of 2
#1
About 2 1/2 months ago I placed an order on a set of custom pickups from a company called Suburban Custom Hound-Wound Pickups (it was a referral from a friend). I decided I wanted to get a passive HSS configuration to my specs (my choice of output per pickup, coil tap, out-of-phase, treble bleed mod&hellip and remove the Emg DG20 that I had in my guitar for the past 2 years in hopes to bring back the soul of the instrument. So I emailed the owner Owri Seeley, talked on the phone about possible designs/ideas and eventually I placed an order.

www. suburban customs. com

So in mid June I finally received the pickups I order and quickly noticed a few red flags with the tone pots and humbucker’s height. The bridge tone would only turn halfway and all the other pots were extremely stiff so I cleaned them the best I could and decided to try to put them in the guitar anyway… and sure enough they didn’t fit (because he put long legs on the humbucker when he knew they were going into a Strat which always have shallow cavities) and not only that the humbucker was crocked.

http://instagram . com /p/aY3u4wRBTk/#

So with those few issues I decided to give Owri a call and instantly noticed a personality change as if he was only interested in protecting his mistakes and covering his ass. I told him that the humbucker was too high he said, “it was standard size” I told him the pots would barely move he said, “that’s was normal” I told him the humbucker was crooked he said, “it wasn’t in all the way”. So after a few day of debating it I decide to reroute my swimming pool routed guitar for these pickups and wow.

From ugly feed back to none of the functions working correctly it was a complete mess;
- The out-of-phase didn't work it turned off the middle pickup
- The two single coils have phasing issues in every position
- The middle pickup turned off in the 3rd position
- The tone knob barely affects the middle pickup and is always overpowered by the neck or the bridge.
- He mixed up the ground wire with the hot wire for the input jack
- Too many wiring mishaps to even bother explaining

So I gave Owri a call (again) to tell him that these pickups weren’t functioning correctly and insisted (again) that maybe I should send them back to get looked at. He replied with a sarcastic/condescending response saying he would charge me an unreasonable amount (shop rate fees, parts fees, shipping fees… it basically added up to around $100 and it would take a 4-5 weeks to get back to me) to correct his mistakes because his words “I was too incompetent to install his high quality pickups”.

Okay so this guy is really getting under my skin with his megalomania so I decided to go to some techs I know and all of them confirmed the mistakes/defects after their blind tests. Owri’s response was, “you should not trust an amateur tech with high end equipment” and wanted me to send my guitar & the pickups to him for installation. The smugness of this guy is smothering

So here we are in mid July and I’m still trying to salvage his wreckage (I have to replace the bridge tone pot and maybe the volume too). He continues to deny any fault and refuses to apologize for even the obvious blunders (humbucker height) and has since given me a snobby reply, “it's unfortunate that you're not one of thousands that is 100% satisfied with Suburban pick ups.” And his finally piece of BS is he said he will give me a refund upon arrival of the pickups but has proven to be beyond untrustworthy… besides I already butchered my MIA Strat for these, went to extreme measures to get them to work and I don’t believe he’ll refund me.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that these were $438.

So what should I do about this?
#2
Live and learn, he took you for a ride.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
#3
Yeah I know, I did this more so for bad press than anything else. I don't expect any sort of resolution for this mess.
#4
Quote by MindIsMaster
About 2 1/2 months ago I placed an order on a set of custom pickups from a company called Suburban Custom Hound-Wound Pickups (it was a referral from a friend). I decided I wanted to get a passive HSS configuration to my specs (my choice of output per pickup, coil tap, out-of-phase, treble bleed mod&hellip and remove the Emg DG20 that I had in my guitar for the past 2 years in hopes to bring back the soul of the instrument. So I emailed the owner Owri Seeley, talked on the phone about possible designs/ideas and eventually I placed an order.

www. suburban customs. com

So in mid June I finally received the pickups I order and quickly noticed a few red flags with the tone pots and humbucker’s height. The bridge tone would only turn halfway and all the other pots were extremely stiff so I cleaned them the best I could and decided to try to put them in the guitar anyway… and sure enough they didn’t fit (because he put long legs on the humbucker when he knew they were going into a Strat which always have shallow cavities) and not only that the humbucker was crocked.

http://instagram . com /p/aY3u4wRBTk/#

So with those few issues I decided to give Owri a call and instantly noticed a personality change as if he was only interested in protecting his mistakes and covering his ass. I told him that the humbucker was too high he said, “it was standard size” I told him the pots would barely move he said, “that’s was normal” I told him the humbucker was crooked he said, “it wasn’t in all the way”. So after a few day of debating it I decide to reroute my swimming pool routed guitar for these pickups and wow.

From ugly feed back to none of the functions working correctly it was a complete mess;
- The out-of-phase didn't work it turned off the middle pickup
- The two single coils have phasing issues in every position
- The middle pickup turned off in the 3rd position
- The tone knob barely affects the middle pickup and is always overpowered by the neck or the bridge.
- He mixed up the ground wire with the hot wire for the input jack
- Too many wiring mishaps to even bother explaining

So I gave Owri a call (again) to tell him that these pickups weren’t functioning correctly and insisted (again) that maybe I should send them back to get looked at. He replied with a sarcastic/condescending response saying he would charge me an unreasonable amount (shop rate fees, parts fees, shipping fees… it basically added up to around $100 and it would take a 4-5 weeks to get back to me) to correct his mistakes because his words “I was too incompetent to install his high quality pickups”.

Okay so this guy is really getting under my skin with his megalomania so I decided to go to some techs I know and all of them confirmed the mistakes/defects after their blind tests. Owri’s response was, “you should not trust an amateur tech with high end equipment” and wanted me to send my guitar & the pickups to him for installation. The smugness of this guy is smothering

So here we are in mid July and I’m still trying to salvage his wreckage (I have to replace the bridge tone pot and maybe the volume too). He continues to deny any fault and refuses to apologize for even the obvious blunders (humbucker height) and has since given me a snobby reply, “it's unfortunate that you're not one of thousands that is 100% satisfied with Suburban pick ups.” And his finally piece of BS is he said he will give me a refund upon arrival of the pickups but has proven to be beyond untrustworthy… besides I already butchered my MIA Strat for these, went to extreme measures to get them to work and I don’t believe he’ll refund me.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that these were $438.

So what should I do about this?

Kick your friend in the head for recommending him. Look up an HSS schematic for what you want, buy some new Bourne, Alpha, or CTS pots (you're already in over $400 for pickups, what's a litlte more for good quality pots) and do it yourself, or you could take it to your tech to be worked on if you don't want to do it yourself. make sure to ask around a bit more before throwing that much money at something again.
Quote by R45VT
Bastards.
#5
Quote by MindIsMaster
Yeah I know, I did this more so for bad press than anything else. I don't expect any sort of resolution for this mess.

When I hear the prices that a lot of "un-known" companies charge, it is a red flag right away.$400+ for a strat set is insane.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
#6
I'm pretty cautious but yeah you're completely right, my friend apologized for this mess he kind of sent me to the wolves blindfolded. If it wasn't for his recommendation I would of never knew that this company existed and would of went with bare knuckle or sheptone or something else.
#8
Over here in the UK we have something called the "Sale of Goods Act" which states that all items sold must be "of merchantable quality" and "fit for purpose" (among other things).
I believe in The States the Uniform Commercial Code Article 2 is a similar deal.

This is all very well, but if a vendor doesn't comply and ends up being unco-operative, as in your case, then I suspect the only remedy is to take the case to the Small Claims (Civil) Court. This of course will cost time and money so it's up to you to decide if it's worth the aggravation and whether it will be worth it financially. Sometimes the threat alone may be enough to get them to rethink their attitude, but it also possibly might not.

You might just want to put the whole thing down to experience and move on. Viban may have the best plan.

Bad luck, chap.
#9
You could at least threaten with small claims court, you never know, he may fold like a blanket.
#10
If you plan to sue, don't fix the guitar,you'll need it as evidence.
Quote by R45VT
Bastards.
#11
So, looking at the website, that pickup winder is located in Alberta, Canada. Alberta has a Sale of Goods Act much like the British equivalent. Some quick googling shows that he may be in violation of that act:


iii) What rights and liabilities does the Act impose on the parties?

Seller's obligations

Provincial Sale of Goods Legislation is modelled after the English Sale of Goods Act. They create a number of implied terms designed to protect and/or compensate buyers where the seller has disposed of goods to which he did not have proper title. These are:

-a condition that the seller has the right to sell the goods [most often relied on in cases where goods have been stolen, subsequently sold a number of times eventually passing to the buyer in question, and the original owner seeks to reclaim possession];

-an implied warranty that the buyer shall enjoy quiet possession of the goods (a general right to have use and enjoyment of the goods without interference by the seller or third parties); and

-an implied warranty that the goods shall be free from unidentified third party encumbrances (a remedy which is available to buyers who have purchased goods unaware that they were subject to a chattel mortgage or other type of lien).

The second category of obligations which the legislation imposes on sellers go to the quality and fitness of the goods themselves.

-where there is a sale of goods by description, there is a condition that the goods must correspond to the description

-where the buyer buys the goods for a particular purpose, and the goods are of a type usually sold by the seller, there is a condition that the goods must be reasonably fit for the purpose for which they were sold;

-when the goods are brought by description from a seller who deals in goods of that description, there is a condition that the goods must be of a merchantable quality

http://www.ucalgary.ca/biztechlaw/node/203


I don't know where you're located and I don't know how legal action is handled in Canada (or across borders), but you actually have a case if you want to have one.
Last edited by Seref at Jul 11, 2013,
#12
On the other hand...he's also offered you a refund if you return the goods. It's unfortunate you don't trust him to follow through with it. I'm not sure what you would do about that other than making sure everything possible is in writing and recorded (like the return delivery).
#14
That's unfortunately the other side of the coin when it comes to going with a giant corporation or a small independent business for pickups, especially in the last 10 years. Even if their product doesn't interest you, a giant corporation has Quality Control (to some degree) and multiple ways to get in touch with them for a refund. An 'independent business' might actually be some guy that makes pickups in his garage and is out of his goddamned mind.
#15
Quote by von Layzonfon
On the other hand...he's also offered you a refund if you return the goods. It's unfortunate you don't trust him to follow through with it. I'm not sure what you would do about that other than making sure everything possible is in writing and recorded (like the return delivery).


The refund was lie, he just wanted to get the product back so he could screw me twice. I texted him saying "I'm still waiting for my refund, you ****ing hack" (I know, it was stupid/foolish way to ask but I didn't care) as to imply that I sent the pickups back, and his reply was that he refuses to refund the product for showing hostility... but to me it was obvious he wasn't no matter how civil I would of acted (which was pretty calm until it became clear he wasn't going to help me so figured I might as well act rude to him).
#16
Quote by p4vl
That's unfortunately the other side of the coin when it comes to going with a giant corporation or a small independent business for pickups, especially in the last 10 years. Even if their product doesn't interest you, a giant corporation has Quality Control (to some degree) and multiple ways to get in touch with them for a refund. An 'independent business' might actually be some guy that makes pickups in his garage and is out of his goddamned mind.


Yeah I found that out when I was going to buy a Mesa Road King II from L&M (a Canadian music retail store chain) and it had non-refundable shipping fee and when it showed up it was broken they sent it to a shop it came back broken... That happen about 3 times so I went back said I didn't want it because off all the problems and they gave me the non-refundable fees back without even asking.

And this guy is some random dude making them in the garage/basement, I just thought it would have been fine because of the recommendation.
#17
Quote by p4vl
That's unfortunately the other side of the coin when it comes to going with a giant corporation or a small independent business for pickups, especially in the last 10 years. Even if their product doesn't interest you, a giant corporation has Quality Control (to some degree) and multiple ways to get in touch with them for a refund. An 'independent business' might actually be some guy that makes pickups in his garage and is out of his goddamned mind.


Plus they have a reputation to uphold. If people were consistently complaining about them on the internet like this, they would likely see a drop off in sales. This guy probably doesn't care because he just relies on word-of-mouth recommendations. Or maybe he just wants to take the money and run

As people have already said, just threaten legal action. I don't know if you know anyone who is a lawyer but if you do, just get them to send a letter with the legal letterhead to the man threatening to make a claim and he might just relent. I'm not sure how well you will do if you do decide to make a claim - in all likelihood he will be running a limited liability company and just decide to shut up shop and start a new one instead. Nothing you can do at that point; the company you're trying to claim against doesn't exist any more...
EH


"Show me war; show me pestilence; show me the blood-red hands of retribution..."
Last edited by eddiehimself at Jul 13, 2013,
#18
Quote by eddiehimself
Plus they have a reputation to uphold. If people were consistently complaining about them on the internet like this, they would likely see a drop off in sales. This guy probably doesn't care because he just relies on word-of-mouth recommendations. Or maybe he just wants to take the money and run

As people have already said, just threaten legal action. I don't know if you know anyone who is a lawyer but if you do, just get them to send a letter with the legal letterhead to the man threatening to make a claim and he might just relent. I'm not sure how well you will do if you do decide to make a claim - in all likelihood he will be running a limited liability company and just decide to shut up shop and start a new one instead. Nothing you can do at that point; the company you're trying to claim against doesn't exist any more...


The guy is delusional & stubborn, he thinks customer service is telling the buyer to fix or pay someone else to correct the errors he made with the the product he sold.
#19
His PayPal account is also in his wife/GF's name... The moment I saw that I should have ditched.
#20
Dude, man he can't just take back the product and not give you a refund like that "Because of your hostility", Ah'm pretty sure that's breaking SOME law of sorts.

You really need to bring this A-hole up in court man
Quote by mcraddict81592
If you need to kill a man with a 9v adapter? I say strangulate. Or swing the heavy end around and aim for the temple, all depends on your style.


FrankenBee Build
#21
Quote by Jarrodthebobo
Dude, man he can't just take back the product and not give you a refund like that "Because of your hostility", Ah'm pretty sure that's breaking SOME law of sorts.

You really need to bring this A-hole up in court man


The guy is a wannabe renegade, acting like it's the Wild West when he's living in the digital age. I'm pretty sure he's not even a legitimate business, you'd get better service from strangers on Craigslist.
#22
Well what ever the reasons, use the law to your advantage. I feel bad for you, but like I said why pay $400+ for pickups from a maker you have never heard of or heard being played through. That is completely on you for being gullible and not doing any research first.

I looked at his page and a few "artists" that are on his endorsement list who I have never heard would be another sign. Oh and the Dumble-esque comment about he will contact you for an endorsement deal, do not contact him.

here is a site where you can get some decent pickups for cheap and they actually sound good www.guitarfetish.com I have actually replaced Dimarzio's with $30 pickups that IMO are better.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
#23
Quote by Robbgnarly
Well what ever the reasons, use the law to your advantage. I feel bad for you, but like I said why pay $400+ for pickups from a maker you have never heard of or heard being played through. That is completely on you for being gullible and not doing any research first.

I looked at his page and a few "artists" that are on his endorsement list who I have never heard would be another sign. Oh and the Dumble-esque comment about he will contact you for an endorsement deal, do not contact him.

here is a site where you can get some decent pickups for cheap and they actually sound good www.guitarfetish.com I have actually replaced Dimarzio's with $30 pickups that IMO are better.

+1 to all that.

+2 for GFS, they make a fine product
Quote by R45VT
Bastards.
#24
Quote by Robbgnarly
Well what ever the reasons, use the law to your advantage. I feel bad for you, but like I said why pay $400+ for pickups from a maker you have never heard of or heard being played through. That is completely on you for being gullible and not doing any research first.

I looked at his page and a few "artists" that are on his endorsement list who I have never heard would be another sign. Oh and the Dumble-esque comment about he will contact you for an endorsement deal, do not contact him.

here is a site where you can get some decent pickups for cheap and they actually sound good www.guitarfetish.com I have actually replaced Dimarzio's with $30 pickups that IMO are better.


I had certain specification that I couldn't find in stock pickups, this wasn't some basic "Strat Pickup set" it was HSS with bells and whistles. Multiple push/pull pots, multiple mods, I knew the exact output I wanted for the individual pickups, I had multiple request/demands and felt the only way to get them in neat package was to contact a custom builder. So I asked one of my guitar savvy friends if he knew anybody interesting that I could communicate with during the process voila, that was the recommendation. If I knew he was going to turn into an egotist forcing me to rebuild his cluster**** I would have never contacted him.

But I do appreciate all the suggestions and advice you all have been giving me. The ending statement of my article was more of a rhetorical one. The real purpose was to give warning and to create bad press because it seem like the only way to get any justice for what happened.

So thanks.
#25
Well you can get pickups that would have been very similar to what you wanted from most companies stock I'd bet. The wiring thing is easy, www.guitarelectronics.com has many free shematics to get what you want or they will design a wiring schematic for a small fee. Push/pull pots are easy also


But what is done is done. Kick your friend in the balls next time you see him.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
Last edited by Robbgnarly at Jul 14, 2013,
#26
at least threaten to go to court, and i don't know if you already did but I would hit all the forums about this. Here in the NL we have a tv show which deals with issues concerning untrustworthy salespeople, by spreading bad publicity (in the media) and visit them to hear their responses and get a refund. Maybe there is something in your country too?
#28
Quote by divinorum69
Escalate a case to paypal?

Btw. I cant believe you routed a fender guitar! Never do irreversable changes.


Me too, it also resulted in me punching a hole in the wall when I discovered that the pickups were defective.
#29
Quote by divinorum69
Escalate a case to paypal?

Btw. I cant believe you routed a fender guitar! Never do irreversable changes.

Why not? I have modded $2000 Gibsons because it is what I wanted. I have seen guys relic $3000+ guitars and make them look 40 yrs old. It is called customization and lots of people do it
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
#30
Quote by Robbgnarly
Why not? I have modded $2000 Gibsons because it is what I wanted. I have seen guys relic $3000+ guitars and make them look 40 yrs old. It is called customization and lots of people do it


Because your loosing the value. Its like changing the rims on a ferrari, I mean worst, its an irreversible change, its like cutting a whole on the hood. Of course there are people who do it but its not smart. Plus, why chop wood off when you can solve the problem other way. Its idiotic to mod 3000 dollar guitars, for that price you can comission for the greatest luthiers to build you an awesome guitar and it will be more custom than you ever thought and you are not butchering a guitar, the best? It will cost you less and it will have more quality. That is just my Humble Opinion as someone who has contact with luthiers.
#31
Quote by divinorum69
Because your loosing the value. Its like changing the rims on a ferrari, I mean worst, its an irreversible change, its like cutting a whole on the hood. Of course there are people who do it but its not smart. Plus, why chop wood off when you can solve the problem other way. Its idiotic to mod 3000 dollar guitars, for that price you can comission for the greatest luthiers to build you an awesome guitar and it will be more custom than you ever thought and you are not butchering a guitar, the best? It will cost you less and it will have more quality. That is just my Humble Opinion as someone who has contact with luthiers.

Custom guitars have very poor resale value dude. Moot point.
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#33
Because its obviously not what he wanted, don't tell a man his business. Not everyones plans on reselling everything he owns.
Quote by R45VT
Bastards.
#34
Quote by Viban
Because its obviously not what he wanted, don't tell a man his business. Not everyones plans on reselling everything he owns.


Im not telling him what to do, im just saying that I cant believe he modded his guitar for the pickups when they were actually intended to fit without mods.

And its always my opinion everyone is free to do what they want. Its a forum to express opinions, if you dislike what I say its allright.

BTW, he said he didnt believe it either.
#35
Quote by divinorum69
Because your loosing the value. Its like changing the rims on a ferrari, I mean worst, its an irreversible change, its like cutting a whole on the hood. Of course there are people who do it but its not smart. Plus, why chop wood off when you can solve the problem other way. Its idiotic to mod 3000 dollar guitars, for that price you can comission for the greatest luthiers to build you an awesome guitar and it will be more custom than you ever thought and you are not butchering a guitar, the best? It will cost you less and it will have more quality. That is just my Humble Opinion as someone who has contact with luthiers.

I can kinda understand your point, but I do not agree with your line of thinking. People customize things to make them more personal. Yes you may loose some resale value, but most don't count on resale value.

Like I have said I have customized several $1500+ guitars in my life. My PRS I completely striped the finish off the neck because it is more comfortable for me to play on.

A lot of people like certain aspects of some guitars, but like or want something slightly different than others. To make this happen they mod them.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
#36
Quote by Robbgnarly

Like I have said I have customized several $1500+ guitars in my life. My PRS I completely stripped the finish off the neck because it is more comfortable for me to play on.


You've got to at least have an oil on it or something, otherwise all the moisture from your hands is going to sink into the neck and **** it up. I mean it's up to you what you do with your guitar, but you might be a bit pissed if you find your $1500 guitar ends up with a warped neck.
EH


"Show me war; show me pestilence; show me the blood-red hands of retribution..."
#37
Quote by eddiehimself
You've got to at least have an oil on it or something, otherwise all the moisture from your hands is going to sink into the neck and **** it up. I mean it's up to you what you do with your guitar, but you might be a bit pissed if you find your $1500 guitar ends up with a warped neck.

Yeah I have Tung Oil on it to seal the maple.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
#38
Quote by Robbgnarly
I can kinda understand your point, but I do not agree with your line of thinking. People customize things to make them more personal. Yes you may loose some resale value, but most don't count on resale value.

Like I have said I have customized several $1500+ guitars in my life. My PRS I completely striped the finish off the neck because it is more comfortable for me to play on.

A lot of people like certain aspects of some guitars, but like or want something slightly different than others. To make this happen they mod them.


we live in different contexts of course. I did not take that into account earlier.

Here a Gibson Les Paul Custom costs as much as a brand new car. Read NEW.

But well.
#39
Quote by divinorum69
we live in different contexts of course. I did not take that into account earlier.

Here a Gibson Les Paul Custom costs as much as a brand new car. Read NEW.

But well.

Yeah MIA stuff is priced extremely high in many countries. I most likely would not have my PRS if I lived in another country
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
#40
Quote by divinorum69
we live in different contexts of course. I did not take that into account earlier.

Here a Gibson Les Paul Custom costs as much as a brand new car. Read NEW.

But well.


Yeah, but they were still building old VW beetles and split-screen campers and selling them as new until a couple of years ago down there
EH


"Show me war; show me pestilence; show me the blood-red hands of retribution..."
Page 1 of 2