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eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#1
So bear with me, this is a seemingly simple question to anyone who isn't a metalhead, but I'll give you as much help as I can.

I'm a guitarist and my my girl is a singer who's learning bass. We haven't started recording anything yet since she's still learning. Anyway, last night when we were planning out our band plans, she asked "What exactly is the genre we'll be playing?"

My reaction was "durr hurr durr" All I know is that we want an ethereal yet heavy sound. (just read the influences in bold print if this is tl;dr)

Well all we have are the instruments we want...:
Guitar, Bass, Drums, Keys, Violin

...and names of our influences:
Nightwish (keys/drums/guitar/image), Muse (bass/drums), Ben Moody (the basis for all my music, just a tad more complicated), and Gretchen (guitar/bass)

So far, the plan for most of the compositions are having the guitar and keys play the harmony underneath the melody of the violin.
We are still debating the role of the bass as a harmonic element or a rhythmic, though the drums will cover the rhythm with heavy use of the toms.
We'll be making extensive use of the major scale, natural minor scale, the Lydian mode, and Phrygian mode. Gonna try to avoid the pentatonic scales (but we know em)
The vocal style will be more like Gretchen's and attempting to avoid the name "Amy Lee Clone" though my girl takes a few cues from Amy Lee as well.

I'm just tryna figure out our genre or which ballpark we are in so I hope this all has helped you to help me.

~Grey
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

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BladeSlinger
nerd
Join date: Jan 2007
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#2
Why are you even bothering trying to categorize your music before you've even played anything?
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brot pls
AlanHB
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#3
Your band is hard to categorise because it has no music. I would argue that you have no genre.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#4
Oh and here's some Gretchen for the vast majority of ppl who don't know (#hipster lol jk) https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsX8UOJBMIs-duZfRktpVQCUhamrvucMR

and inb4 "Genres don't matter, just be yourself, labels suck!!!!!!1!!11111!!"
Well we gotta let our future fan hopefuls know what we do and who we sound like to an extent. Yes we're gonna be our own unique band and do our own unique thing. But how many times have you heard that only to be met not having the slightest idea of what you're in for so ending up with mediocrity and unoriginality?
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
AlanHB
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#5
So basically you want to tell people that youre some supercool genre, have no songs, and by the time you write songs they probably won't be in that genre.

Put more time into finding your other band members.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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BladeSlinger
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Join date: Jan 2007
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#6
I think you're over thinking this. Make music. Go from there.
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brot pls
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
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#7
Quote by BladeSlinger
Why are you even bothering trying to categorize your music before you've even played anything?


Well I didn't take that into account to be honest heh...well I have written stuff and we go by the concept that all modern songs have started on a keyboard/guitar, and a voice. Both of which we have done so we do have music, w just don't have the means of recording just yet. I would assume that I can find a song from a band you all know so I can give you an idea.

Then again, if you could just tell me the genre that these bands are, I could be well equipped in determining our own genre:

Ben Moody (early Evanescence and We Are The Fallen)
Gretchen
Muse (probably the easiest one to aim)

Being that Muse is easier to find, I'd think it's safe to say a good number of female fronted bands are tough to pinpoint, or even get a general idea.
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
AlanHB
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#8
Mate get off it. You're currently a duo so I will guess that you play folk or pop music.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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BladeSlinger
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#9
You keep listing bands but those could be combined into many different sounds. Get your band, refine your sound, then worry about genre. Genre is just a categorization. Worry about getting the sound you want.
Quote by cemges
And tell, how come you became idiot enough

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brot pls
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
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#10
Quote by AlanHB
So basically you want to tell people that youre some supercool genre, have no songs, and by the time you write songs they probably won't be in that genre.

Put more time into finding your other band members.


Not even (Sorry, I kinda type slow...failed that class heh). We already have our sound but we just don't know how to define it. If it''s too tough we'll just say female fronted rock but we are just preparing a few years in advance.

We don't really plan on any other permanent members (though it may be a possibility) and we have a drummer buddy who helps cos I'm never using a drum machine...at least not now XD. I've studied violins and started throwing in some lines on guitar and keyboard to voice it like it so I don't get any false expectations. I could go on ig.

Basically, we have our sound, not any money
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#11
Quote by BladeSlinger
You keep listing bands but those could be combined into many different sounds. Get your band, refine your sound, then worry about genre. Genre is just a categorization. Worry about getting the sound you want.


Quote by AlanHB
Mate get off it. You're currently a duo so I will guess that you play folk or pop music.


yeah you guys actualy made sense...I'll just tell her we'll think of that later...But I will be back with some example of our music eventually anyways, thanks

oh and Alan...sheesh dude, hostility? Just tryna find some answers
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
BladeSlinger
nerd
Join date: Jan 2007
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#12
He wasn't being hostile. You're looking for answers yet giving nothing to work with. A genre with no sound, a sound with no recordings.
Quote by cemges
And tell, how come you became idiot enough

Quote by captainsnazz
brot pls
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#13
When someone says "get off it" I kinda sense hostility...then again, this is the internet But I'll find a cheap way to post up the sound as soon as possible since I can play 3 of the instruments we need and she can sing already. But I see what you guys are saying, I actually agree.

Though defining the genres of the bands I listed, barring Nightwish, would help us a lot.
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
sweetdude3000
Registered User
Join date: Mar 2012
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#14
Just try to find a common thread of the genres from your influences and call it that.

What genre is system of a down? They are some armenian guys who borrow the armenian folk melodies, play down tuned guitars and have an interesting vocalist. Would they be armenian metal or pop or rock?

It doesn't matter what you call it.
BladeSlinger
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Join date: Jan 2007
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#15
Quote by eric_wearing
When someone says "get off it" I kinda sense hostility...then again, this is the internet But I'll find a cheap way to post up the sound as soon as possible since I can play 3 of the instruments we need and she can sing already. But I see what you guys are saying, I actually agree.

Though defining the genres of the bands I listed, barring Nightwish, would help us a lot.

Do these bands not have listed genres already? Their websites, Wikipedia, companies that sell music. You don't really need to ask these questions.
Quote by cemges
And tell, how come you became idiot enough

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brot pls
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#16
Quote by sweetdude3000
Just try to find a common thread of the genres from your influences and call it that.

What genre is system of a down? They are some armenian guys who borrow the armenian folk melodies, play down tuned guitars and have an interesting vocalist. Would they be armenian metal or pop or rock?

It doesn't matter what you call it.


Didn't think of that. Gretchen for example is hard to classify, but they call themselves Happy-Melodic-Gothic-Chick-Rock. Thanks
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
AlanHB
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Join date: Aug 2008
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#17
^^^ They obviously don't care what genre they are.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#19
Alan, heheh yeah that's true

sweetdude...I feel weird saying your name (o_o) lol seems sensible. I've even heard "chamber pop" to define Evanescence as well. No idea what that is though heh

Anyway guys, thanks for the help.
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
CelestialGuitar
Celestial Wish Guitarist
Join date: Nov 2011
518 IQ
#20
I actually disagree with anyone saying write the songs then worry about the genre. I was in this same position two years ago, just me and a female singer trying to get a band sorted, and at the start, we knew we wanted to make Symphonic Metal, so we actively pursued that sound, and we recorded the songs we wrote. The demo we recorded got many positive reviews, and we're set to record our first proper release very soon, and we have quite a lot of people eagerly awaiting it, so planning your genre and image is something every band must do if they're serious. To me, there's nothing worse than seeing 'Jazzy Pop-Punkcore' or 'Alternative Thrash Metal' on their facebook page, to me, that just says 'Everyone in our band likes different music and has a hand in our songwriting process', and that's rarely good.

More on topic, I'd say Gothic Rock is the genre for you. A single violin will give off a very different sound to a full string orchestra, and with keys, I could imagine a very dark, moody sound, it may be wishful thinking on my part, but I'd love to see a female fronted My Dying Bride.
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Mesa Dual Rectifier
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ESP Horizon NT See Thru Black (D Standard)

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eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#21
Quote by CelestialGuitar
I actually disagree with anyone saying write the songs then worry about the genre. I was in this same position two years ago, just me and a female singer trying to get a band sorted, and at the start, we knew we wanted to make Symphonic Metal, so we actively pursued that sound, and we recorded the songs we wrote. The demo we recorded got many positive reviews, and we're set to record our first proper release very soon, and we have quite a lot of people eagerly awaiting it, so planning your genre and image is something every band must do if they're serious. To me, there's nothing worse than seeing 'Jazzy Pop-Punkcore' or 'Alternative Thrash Metal' on their facebook page, to me, that just says 'Everyone in our band likes different music and has a hand in our songwriting process', and that's rarely good.

More on topic, I'd say Gothic Rock is the genre for you. A single violin will give off a very different sound to a full string orchestra, and with keys, I could imagine a very dark, moody sound, it may be wishful thinking on my part, but I'd love to see a female fronted My Dying Bride.


We were hoping the violin front would be one of the selling points of our music and heck, you just made me realize that the need for classification is necessary to finding new members. I mean I wouldn't teach my girl funk bass for our music or get a gospel keyboard player.

BTW, you really made the whole idea of our band sound so romantic, and you basically hit all the points we're going for. +1 Well now I gotta go look up My Dying Bride to check their sound.
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
CelestialGuitar
Celestial Wish Guitarist
Join date: Nov 2011
518 IQ
#22
Quote by eric_wearing
We were hoping the violin front would be one of the selling points of our music and heck, you just made me realize that the need for classification is necessary to finding new members. I mean I wouldn't teach my girl funk bass for our music or get a gospel keyboard player.

BTW, you really made the whole idea of our band sound so romantic, and you basically hit all the points we're going for. +1 Well now I gotta go look up My Dying Bride to check their sound.


That's exactly right, a lot of bands come to me to ask me to play guitar for them, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard 'Oh, I've got a few guys together to jam, we don't know what we play yet', but I can tell you that every time I've heard that, I've turned them down. Nowadays, with two band members, you can release anything you like. Our first demos were recorded with a full band and a full orchestra, despite the fact that we had neither at the time, but because we've written our own songs and not let the lack of members hold us back, we've received a lot of interest, and most of the bands I see get somewhere have their image and genre down to a fine art, rather than trying to invent something new. You clearly have a vision, so go with it, I think that every band needs a destination, because, otherwise, how would you get there?

I think in regards to Genre, every band should go for a Genre, but your sound within that Genre will be different, for instance, in Symphonic Metal, you've got Nightwish, Within Temptation, Kamelot, Rhapsody Of Fire, Blind Guardian and many more, they sound nothing alike, so because of all those possible influences, of course it's going to sound different. I'll quote a recent review of a female fronted band, "It sounds more like two bands fighting each other, on top of a soprano singer." You need a coherent sound, and I dare say, a lot of unsigned bands that merge genres don't do it cleanly and just sound like they've awkwardly put a Thrash riff into a Power Metal song, so, on the whole, I dare say it's not the best thing to attempt.
Gear

Mesa Dual Rectifier
TC Electronic Polytune
T Rex MAB Overdrive
Boss NS-2
ESP Horizon NT See Thru Black (D Standard)

Celestial Wish on Youtube
sweetdude3000
Registered User
Join date: Mar 2012
1,172 IQ
#23
^^ Exactly. Genre is important to any band. You are always going to follow some style or convention in your work, so it's an evil necessity - for lack of better word - to give your band some label. That way, you know what you are working in, let things naturally take its course if you want to deviate. I think people are opposed to labels because it somehow means you are restrictive in your style. Sounds like you might have a The Cure thing going on (if you want to call it that, maybe not). Good luck!
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#24
^^^ Definitely, I love rebellious and political themes at times, hence Rise Against being my favorite band. If you want a message, they've got it. If you want to just hear music, they've got it. Anyway, I figured "I like Power Metal, I like political rebellion...I'll go look up some political Power Metal bands". Needless to say I was disappointed heh. From that one experience, I've learned not to mash too much in a single thing, though taking cues and influences is not bad.

From Nightwish, I can take away Emppu's style of back-seating the guitar in order to compliment the song while allowing the keys to take the melodic lead.
From Gretchen we get our diversity while maintaining a single connection to it all. The singer/bassist is also inspirational to my girl as well.
From Ben Moody...well, I'm not really sure to be honest. He just has "it" and I keep learning bit by bit what "it" is. I just love seeing guitarists who are not known for their solos such as Moody or Emppu.

And I already posted on your page the thanks for showing me My Dying Bride. I've only checked out A Kiss To Remember and based off of that I'll say we won't be too far from that. Of course we won't drone as much nor do I think we'll be as heavy but the violin overtones sounds just like my plans. Actually, I believe the music we have is just as dark as MDB (I'm lazy) but somehow sound happier...logic
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
Sleaze Disease
UnBanned
Join date: Sep 2006
420 IQ
#25
Quote by sweetdude3000
system of a down


Quote by sweetdude3000
an interesting vocalist.


Quote by SteveHouse
This thread is officially about sucking Sleaze off for a sig.


Quote by tayroar
Hey Sleaze I'll give you a blowjob if you sig me. Maybe even some nudey photos?


Quote by crazy8rgood


Sleaze, that made me lulz in my pants.


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hahaha Sleaze i'd give you my mom for that one.
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#26
Mother of Gawrsh, Sleaze commented in my thread!!!!!
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
Andalus
Bànned
Join date: Mar 2011
617 IQ
#27
Let me just try and comprehend this...

1. You have no band.
2. You have no/few songs
3. You are trying to suss out your band's genre

...

Step 1 for you is to write good songs. Accept that 99% of your ideas are going to be shite. Forget about genre. Write anything that comes to your head that sounds good. I had drafted over 300 ideas (over 3 years) before I wrote my first song. Instrumentals are not songs. Write em, but they're not songs.

Once you've got some good tunes, look for bandmates. Demo your tunes to attract em rather than stating bands or genres (vague guidelines do help, though). Make sure your bird is competent before she joins. Nobody wants a learner in the band.

By this point, you should be 3/4 years down the line and ready to get cracking.

Lesson here: Get a band before worrying about novelties.
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#28
what novelties would I be working on? but I'll hit each one of your points (since I've gotten my answer already n all. I'm just hoping this'll stay open long enough for me to post some of our music later on)

Quote by Andalus
1. You have no band.

Well we sorta do. We have a name, 2 co-founding members who agree on a sound. The plan so far doesn't involve finding other permanent members though we aren't ruling out the possibility

Quote by Andalus
2. You have no/few songs

Your point? We both have been writing independently for over 4 years and honestly only recently written together. Our lyrical themes have contrasted but that's never been the point of genres outside of niche type stuff. I'm focusing on the music/sound of it which we both have the same views. Based on the sound, our style is nearly identical, always has been.


Quote by Andalus
3. You are trying to suss out your band's genre

We wanna be sure about a few things.
Firstly, we thought of what would we would see if we did a show. Is it in a theater, an arena, a club, A stadium? What do the fans look like, how old are they, and what are they doing?
Secondly, we wanna know how we're gonna get ppl to check us out and saying we're "a unique original sound that is never gonna be heard elsewhere" (read a few posts up) and some ppl look at genres and see just "rock" or something and have no idea what to expect.
Lastly, I've just recently realized that other ppl would need to know what we want before trying to join the band (look up a few) Otherwise, I'd get a thrashcore drummer and a Jon Lord tribute pianist. If we ever had permanent members, we'd expect a few differences of course but we would all need a similar sound/constant style to expect anyone else to lay a hand in the writing process. I'd love to have other musicians who'd join and write their own lines to compliment mine and vice versa but again, we'd need to understand what the band was formed for and the two of us are not compromising our style.

Closing, the business aspect of music is just as important as the music even if you're giving it away for free, every artist wants to have their message heard. Since genre is both an aspect of the art and the business, we wish to understand that as well as possible as we are working every possible angle to ensure we don't muck up rather than be some lame band. Besides, this thread has helped a lot and the two of us discussed this last night and we did in fact agree that gothic metal was the best term for ourselves at the moment. Now we plan on a bit faster pace than most gothic metal, but we looked around and found that it best describes our sound.

Thanks for the post though
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
Andalus
Bànned
Join date: Mar 2011
617 IQ
#29
Quote by eric_wearing
what novelties would I be working on? but I'll hit each one of your points (since I've gotten my answer already n all. I'm just hoping this'll stay open long enough for me to post some of our music later on)


Well we sorta do. We have a name, 2 co-founding members who agree on a sound. The plan so far doesn't involve finding other permanent members though we aren't ruling out the possibility

No, you don't. A band is a fully functioning unit. Two people who've agreed to form a band and decided on name/how they want to sound etc doesn't make it a band. Especially not if you want a full band including drums etc. If you're a duo, fair enough but you don't sound like that from what I've read.

Your point? We both have been writing independently for over 4 years and honestly only recently written together. Our lyrical themes have contrasted but that's never been the point of genres outside of niche type stuff. I'm focusing on the music/sound of it which we both have the same views. Based on the sound, our style is nearly identical, always has been.

The point is that you don't actually have any songs for your project. How do you intend to attract bandmates. "Yeah we're a goth metal band come try out." Not going to work. YOu need focus. Get some songs written, pick the good ones, work from there. If you've got songs written independently then you're in a much better position than most. Demo your songs how you want them to sound, then use that to attract band members. Most people will be turned off by genre as it IS NOT A DEFINITIVE WAY OF DESCRIBING SOUND. How do you expect to work out the genre when you don't have any songs? That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

We wanna be sure about a few things.
Firstly, we thought of what would we would see if we did a show. Is it in a theater, an arena, a club, A stadium? What do the fans look like, how old are they, and what are they doing?
Secondly, we wanna know how we're gonna get ppl to check us out and saying we're "a unique original sound that is never gonna be heard elsewhere" (read a few posts up) and some ppl look at genres and see just "rock" or something and have no idea what to expect.
Lastly, I've just recently realized that other ppl would need to know what we want before trying to join the band (look up a few) Otherwise, I'd get a thrashcore drummer and a Jon Lord tribute pianist. If we ever had permanent members, we'd expect a few differences of course but we would all need a similar sound/constant style to expect anyone else to lay a hand in the writing process. I'd love to have other musicians who'd join and write their own lines to compliment mine and vice versa but again, we'd need to understand what the band was formed for and the two of us are not compromising our style.

I'd post a long rant about how you don't pick who your fans are but surely that isn't necessary. Write your music, work from there. You're so many steps ahead that it's just unrealistic. You don't have any songs, you don't have a band, you'r just two people with plans. You need to actually have some sort of product before you can start worrying about the bollocks such as fans and bandmates.

Or, you can take the much more popular and reasonable method of jamming with mates until you decide to take it seriously. The fact of the matter is, is that by not having any music for people to hear, you're going to hurt your potential prospects by limiting the people interested


Closing, the business aspect of music is just as important as the music even if you're giving it away for free, every artist wants to have their message heard. Since genre is both an aspect of the art and the business, we wish to understand that as well as possible as we are working every possible angle to ensure we don't muck up rather than be some lame band. Besides, this thread has helped a lot and the two of us discussed this last night and we did in fact agree that gothic metal was the best term for ourselves at the moment. Now we plan on a bit faster pace than most gothic metal, but we looked around and found that it best describes our sound.

I did not mention business and I fully agree that it is equally as important as the music. Your business is based off the music, so do that first then focus on how you're going to market it

Thanks for the post though


Bolded my answers to your questions.
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#30
I had a long post typed out then deleted it once I realized I'm wasting my time when I could just say what I have below:

I guess the best way to explain this is we have the blueprint for our product. Any inventor most likely set up a blueprint then made a prototype model and such before starting with the business plans. After the business model was set, he then mass produced his invention then carried out the plan. My philosophy is as that, create both business models and product to compliment each other. But that's just me.

Point is, I have my answer, we know what we've agreed on, and someone tellin us that we need to ignore genre isn't useful at all at this point. whatever post about me needing to release music(we can't)/find our sound(we have)/get an entire band(We will be the sole creative units unless we find someone who fits our style ie we'll hire session peeps) before worrying about genre, I'm just gonna ignore from here on out til I can post a song here (which will be a while indeed).
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
CelestialGuitar
Celestial Wish Guitarist
Join date: Nov 2011
518 IQ
#31
I'd post a long rant about how you don't pick who your fans are but surely that isn't necessary. Write your music, work from there. You're so many steps ahead that it's just unrealistic. You don't have any songs, you don't have a band, you'r just two people with plans. You need to actually have some sort of product before you can start worrying about the bollocks such as fans and bandmates.


I must interject, deciding your target audience is basic marketing, and must be the first thing you do if you want to make a sellable product. This is because knowing your target audience allows you to make informed musical decisions. Otherwise, it'd be like "Okay, our typical fan will be a 15 year old teenage girl who enjoys Evanescence, shops in Blue Banana and has posters of her favourite band members" "Oh, crap, better take this massive Prog Metal solo out of this song, shorten our single by two minutes, sack a band member so that we can hire a token pretty-boy to attract the girls, and we need to change our lyrics to be about relationship breakups instead of Diablo 3". If you want to jam with friends, then you can happily disregard all that, as you probably won't care about making money, but these guys want some professional musicians to join up with them so that they can make something of their career, so a business plan is needed. Indeed, I won't play with a band that just does it 'for the music', I'm spending my time learning songs and attending rehearsals, if the band have no plans other than 'play gigs and keep fingers crossed', I'm wasting my time and money, and a lot of musicians I've worked with feel exactly the same.
Gear

Mesa Dual Rectifier
TC Electronic Polytune
T Rex MAB Overdrive
Boss NS-2
ESP Horizon NT See Thru Black (D Standard)

Celestial Wish on Youtube
Andalus
Bànned
Join date: Mar 2011
617 IQ
#32
Quote by CelestialGuitar
I must interject, deciding your target audience is basic marketing, and must be the first thing you do if you want to make a sellable product. This is because knowing your target audience allows you to make informed musical decisions. Otherwise, it'd be like "Okay, our typical fan will be a 15 year old teenage girl who enjoys Evanescence, shops in Blue Banana and has posters of her favourite band members" "Oh, crap, better take this massive Prog Metal solo out of this song, shorten our single by two minutes, sack a band member so that we can hire a token pretty-boy to attract the girls, and we need to change our lyrics to be about relationship breakups instead of Diablo 3". If you want to jam with friends, then you can happily disregard all that, as you probably won't care about making money, but these guys want some professional musicians to join up with them so that they can make something of their career, so a business plan is needed. Indeed, I won't play with a band that just does it 'for the music', I'm spending my time learning songs and attending rehearsals, if the band have no plans other than 'play gigs and keep fingers crossed', I'm wasting my time and money, and a lot of musicians I've worked with feel exactly the same.

Not the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying don't form a business plan as any serious band should have at least some idea of what they want to achieve. I'm saying that forming a business plan before you have any material is ridiculous.
kilbie
Super Noob
Join date: Oct 2006
1,118 IQ
#33
Quote by AlanHB
Your band is hard to categorise because it has no music. I would argue that you have no genre.


+1

You can talk all you like about how you want it to sound, but until your actually making some music it's impossible to know how it will actually sound. Especially seeing as you haven't actually found the other musicians for your band. It may be difficult to find others that want to play exactly what you play, so you will probably have compromise. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, you might find that the sound you end up with, although different from your original idea, is something you like more.

Does genre really matter? You seem to have a good idea about what you want it to sound like. It doesn't really matter what you call it. If you must have a genre, go on wikipedia, look up the bands that you sort of want to sound like and see what genres they are. If you end up sounding anything like them you will be one of those genres.
KevinGoetz
Mute Prophet Guitarist
Join date: Nov 2011
684 IQ
#34
CelestialGuitar's and Sweetdude's posts are by far the most constructive I've seen in this thread; I'd go with their input, Eric. In my band's case, it's an awkward genre definition. For the longest time we would say like, "Well...it's...like, symphonic metal, but prog, with like...actual interesting guitar riffs...and shred solos...but it's symphonic metal...like Nightwish...damn it, just go listen to the music, I can't explain this in words."

We finally just said progressive symphonic metal, but it's...not just that. That sounds like where you guys are with the variety of your music; you could probably fit under the goth rock/metal umbrella, probably with a prog twist since you like Muse. But if you feel that it's something more than that simple definition, don't get OCD about trying to pin it down. Hence the point of my personal story I shared. You don't need to be able to state every single point of uniqueness if you can't quite put your finger on it. Eventually, you'll probably end up saying, "Damn it, just go listen to the music, I can't explain this in words."

As for writing material; I highly recommend just using GuitarPro (Tuxguitar, free, if you don't already have GuitarPro), programming some drums, maybe play the bass yourself, write some keyboard parts if you're so inclined, and worry about having members to fill those shoes later. Backing tracks, although far from ideal, will get the job done live while you seek out real musicians. But more importantly, it'll define your sound as music, instead of theoretical concepts.
Last edited by KevinGoetz at Aug 11, 2013,
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
Join date: Oct 2009
3,472 IQ
#35
So far, the plan for most of the compositions are having the guitar and keys play the harmony underneath the melody of the violin.
We are still debating the role of the bass as a harmonic element or a rhythmic, though the drums will cover the rhythm with heavy use of the toms.
We'll be making extensive use of the major scale, natural minor scale, the Lydian mode, and Phrygian mode. Gonna try to avoid the pentatonic scales (but we know em)
The vocal style will be more like Gretchen's and attempting to avoid the name "Amy Lee Clone" though my girl takes a few cues from Amy Lee as well.


TS, what I would do is first write at least one song. You have clearly thought about the roles of the instruments but remember that you can always rearrange your songs. Write songs and if that's not how you want it to sound like, rearrange it.

I don't think you need to talk about the role of the instruments right now. As I said, first write the song, then decide what different instruments play. It's not easy to talk about your style if you don't have any songs of your style.

When I write songs, I write songs. I know if my songs work for my band or not (most of the time not). So just write songs and if one of them sounds the way you want your band to sound like, use it. It's a lot easier to write more songs of the same style when you already have one song. The thing is, words can't describe music.

When we started our band, my friend just had written some songs that we started playing. That way we figured out our band's sound. If you know exactly what you are after, maybe you shouldn't even have any band members. You could just play/program all the instruments by yourself (and later have studio musicians to play them). That way it will sound like you want it to sound like. When you add more members, you add their style and influences and it changes your sound. It's not necessarily a bad thing but still if you know exactly what you want, maybe getting band members isn't a good idea.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Aug 11, 2013,
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#36
Quote by MaggaraMarine
TS, what I would do is first write at least one song. You have clearly thought about the roles of the instruments but remember that you can always rearrange your songs. Write songs and if that's not how you want it to sound like, rearrange it.

I don't think you need to talk about the role of the instruments right now. As I said, first write the song, then decide what different instruments play. It's not easy to talk about your style if you don't have any songs of your style.

Understood boss

When I write songs, I write songs. I know if my songs work for my band or not (most of the time not). So just write songs and if one of them sounds the way you want your band to sound like, use it. It's a lot easier to write more songs of the same style when you already have one song. The thing is, words can't describe music.

Totally agreed there. I wrote songs left and write (<--punny) when I first learned about rock music and I had no idea what to do with a lot of them cos I could never see myself playing them. Just figured when I write a song, I'll have the option of (A, not my sound) giving it to a friend, selling it (make money mr. artist), or (B, totally my sound) playing it myself. Always thought that way ^_^

When we started our band, my friend just had written some songs that we started playing. That way we figured out our band's sound. If you know exactly what you are after, maybe you shouldn't even have any band members. You could just play/program all the instruments by yourself (and later have studio musicians to play them). That way it will sound like you want it to sound like. When you add more members, you add their style and influences and it changes your sound. It's not necessarily a bad thing but still if you know exactly what you want, maybe getting band members isn't a good idea.

Yeah agreed. My singer said it may be best if we just go the "rent session musician" route but we'll audition when everything is set just to be sure, we like options...and who knows, maybe my style will mesh greatly with some other musician as it does with my singer. I'm the crunchy glorious rebellion song guy and she's the adorable yet somber one. We balance each other pretty well


All in all, thanks for the tips, that first bit made me think a bit more
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#37
Update: Sorta...

After months of doing all the hard work, I asked my girlfriend if she even wanted this. She told me it was just a "high school dream" that she "lost love for". So of course, she's out (I still don't understand why it hurt me when she said that tbh).

I posted that here cos I wrote music to compliment her voice. Now that she's out, leaving me with no singer, I really doubt I can be clear about what I want stylistically
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
KevinGoetz
Mute Prophet Guitarist
Join date: Nov 2011
684 IQ
#38
That's rough. I know how much it sucks to realize that no one else took a project as seriously as you did. The most important thing, is to not let this kill your musical ambition. You can still write the music, play and record as much of it as you can, and let the gaps fill themselves in later. That's what matters; continuing to work and grow as a musician.

Trust me, I've been exactly where you are right now, and there's no way I could have gotten where I am now other than doing exactly what I just told you to do.
eric_wearing
KillerOfIdiocracy
Join date: Oct 2011
1,542 IQ
#39
Write what I can, play what I can, all will fall into place if I don't quit...thanks
Theory is just...wow. I'm getting a bit over my head by trying to learn so much w/o formal educators

Quote by DBKGUITAR
To be a good lead guitar you must be VERY GOOD AT RYTHM

Quote by MaggaraMarine
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!
KevinGoetz
Mute Prophet Guitarist
Join date: Nov 2011
684 IQ
#40
I know it sounds kind of...like total BS, but it works. For one thing, people are more likely to start a band with you if they know you're capable of writing all the music. That shows both a degree of dedication and also proves that you don't want them to join just to saddle them with work you didn't want to do yourself. So, a catalogue of fully-written songs is a hugely beneficial thing to have, even if you can't make it all yourself.

Get an album written, record it (program drums/keyboards if you have to), mix it roughly, etc. Then, you can start worrying about a singer. Hell, your gf might even be willing to come over for a day and record all the music, even if she's not willing to actually perform it with you. Once you have an album, you have a badge of credibility to look for a more permanent singer, advertising yourself as a professional.

One more point of mention: A singer and a guitarist or two can totally fill out a stage if need be, should you end up reliant on backing tracks for lack of members.