Page 1 of 2
#1
Alright so this happened a few months ago, and I didn't particularly hear much about it. But this hit the news today, and well... It's pretty shit.

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/western-australia/man-allegedly-chased-to-his-death/story-fnii5thn-1226682206483
Quote by from the article
TAURI Litchfield was allegedly punched and kicked in the head before being chased to his death by a group of six teenagers who stole his mobile phone, Perth’s Children’s Court was told today.
Details surrounding the Mandurah man’s death were revealed this afternoon during a bail application hearing for one of the six youths accused of killing him.

Mr Litchfield was found unconscious in a car park on Pinjarra Rd, Mandurah, with severe head injuries in the early hours of St Patrick’s Day.

He was rushed to Peel Health Campus but died a short time later.

Today, the court heard the 28-year-old was not only assaulted but also tried to escape his attackers three times before he either tripped or fell over a concrete wall, hitting his head on the ground.

While a full post-mortem examination has yet to be completed, a supplementary report, which was revealed in court last week, found the Mandurah man died from a head injury.

During the hearing today the court was told Mr Litchfield was approached by nine males as he walked home from the Mandurah foreshore just after 7pm on March 17.

An altercation broke out after one of the teenagers tried to steal his mobile phone from his back pocket.

State prosecutor Sean Stocks told the hearing Mr Litchfield confronted the youth then slapped him across the face.

The juvenile responded by punching the 28-year-old in the head causing him to fall down.

While he was on the ground it is alleged some of the boys then punched and kicked him.

Mr Stocks said Mr Litchfield then got up and tried to flag down a car for help. The car did not stop.

In the meantime six of the nine boys began chasing the 28-year-old.

It was then alleged Mr Litchfield was dragged in to nearby bushes where he was assaulted again.

He then tried to escape but was quickly chased down by the six youths.

It was in the course of the chase that Mr Stock claims the teenager who applied for bail today punched Mr Litchfield in the neck.

He said the Mandurah man managed to make his was to a nearby car park but was still being pursued by the group and either was tripped or fell over a wall which had a half a metre drop.

In opposing bail Mr Stocks said that while the boy who applied was not one of the youths who allegedly punched and kicked Mr Litchfield on the ground, he did admit to punching him as he tried to flee. He also said the boy was given Mr Litchfield’s mobile phone, used it, got rid of the SIM card then sold it to his sister.

He also revealed to the court police had records of telephone intercepts of the boy talking on the phone to one of three state witnesses who are set to give evidence in the case.

Simon Freitag, who was acting on behalf of the boy, told the court the 15-year-old should be given bail because of his age, the fact that he had no previous criminal records and he would be released into the care of his grandmother.

Children’s Court president Judge Denis Reynolds refused the application, saying that while he took all those things into consideration, he did not think bail was warranted given the seriousness of the allegations.

All six accused are due to appear in court on August 9, 2013.


Read more: http://www.perthnow.com.au/national-news/western-australia/man-allegedly-chased-to-his-death/story-fnii5thn-1226682206483#ixzz2ZZeaD6W2


and according to this article, http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/18074050/teen-refused-bail-over-fatal-bashing/
He also argued there would be issues surrounding who was "legally responsible" for Mr Litchfield's death.

The court was told a full autopsy was yet to be completed but an initial report suggested Mr Litchfield had died from head injuries.
It appears like the defence is going to try and get the guy charged with violent robbery instead of murder, because the victim appears to have died from head injuries consistent with falling. (even though it could also just be clever editing, I doubt that's the case)

So they beat and chased a scared and desperate man until he fell and fatally hit his head.
I don't care if he's under 18, there's no ****ing way he should be released on bail.
thoughts?


EDIT: I've been corrected, It wouldn't be murder. but perhaps manslaughter.
either way, should they be held accountable?
It's over simplified, So what!

Quote by eGraham
I'm going to be on top of what is called a knob
Quote by theguitarist
Big ones can be fun in some ways but generally, they are a pain in the ass.
Quote by Wolfinator-x
I don't know what is going on in this thread or why I have an erection.
Last edited by Obsceneairwaves at Jul 20, 2013,
#2
If they didn't kill him, they didn't kill him.

You can't chase a person to death, unless they die from exhaustion.
#3
Quote by CoreysMonster
If they didn't kill him, they didn't kill him.

You can't chase a person to death, unless they die from exhaustion.

The boys were chasing him with malicious intent, and he died(falling) trying to escape them.

Surely that should be grounds for murder, Atleast I think it should be.
It's over simplified, So what!

Quote by eGraham
I'm going to be on top of what is called a knob
Quote by theguitarist
Big ones can be fun in some ways but generally, they are a pain in the ass.
Quote by Wolfinator-x
I don't know what is going on in this thread or why I have an erection.
#4
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
The boys were chasing him with malicious intent, and he died(falling) trying to escape them.

Surely that should be grounds for murder, Atleast I think it should be.

Nope. Involuntary manslaughter, at most.

Murder needs to be premeditated and in cold blood, and malicious intent resulting in an accident is far from enough to convict somebody of murder.

EDIT: I'm not a lawyer or law expert, though, this is just what I'm assuming.
#5
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
The boys were chasing him with malicious intent, and he died(falling) trying to escape them.

Surely that should be grounds for murder, Atleast I think it should be.



I'm pretty sure that would be the ratio decidendi of the case. THEY put him in that position through their actions. God knows how stare decisis would be applied - I haven't heard of any similar cases. Although murder must be premeditated - I doubt their intentions were "We'll chase him until something happens". As Ryan says, Manslaughter is much more likely.

Disclaimer: I'm only a law student, not a lawyer.
RIP Tom Searle.
Last edited by MH400 at Jul 20, 2013,
#6
no, this is a murder:
If you do something right, no one will know you've done anything at all

Proud to be called Best Friends with Pastafarian96
#7
Quote by MH400
I'm pretty sure that would be the ratio decidendi of the case. THEY put him in that position through their actions. God knows how stare decisis would be applied - I haven't heard of any similar cases. Although murder must be premeditated, so that;s murder ruled out. As Ryan says, Manslaughter is more likely.

Disclaimer: I'm only a law student, not a lawyer.


see that's the line for me. He wouldn't have died had it not been for the kids, They should be held responsible


and fair enough, It looks like murder was the wrong term.
Manslaughter works though.
It's over simplified, So what!

Quote by eGraham
I'm going to be on top of what is called a knob
Quote by theguitarist
Big ones can be fun in some ways but generally, they are a pain in the ass.
Quote by Wolfinator-x
I don't know what is going on in this thread or why I have an erection.
#8
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
see that's the line for me. He wouldn't have died had it not been for the kids, They should be held responsible

and fair enough, It looks like murder was the wrong term.
Manslaughter works though.

He wouldn't have died had he not fallen down. That was the action that directly led to his death. That's an accident, and the kids had very little to do with that.

I highly doubt the kids' intent was to kill him; it's most likely an unfortunate accident that nobody involved wanted to happen. I personally don't think the kids should even be charged with manslaughter, unless there is some way to prove they were planning on killing him anyways.
Last edited by CoreysMonster at Jul 20, 2013,
#9
Well, they didn't just chase him, they beat the shit out of him several times along the way.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LYZyCdp.gif[/img]


Quote by CrossBack7
Momie's like not even a real person, just an asian, lesbian spirit.
#10
Quote by Momentosis
Well, they didn't just chase him, they beat the shit out of him several times along the way.

Beating people still isn't killing people.

EDIT: To clarify, those kids are a bunch of asshole pieces of shit and definitely need to be punished, I just don't think they are directly responsible for his death.
#11
Quote by CoreysMonster
He wouldn't have died had he not fallen down. That was the action that directly led to his death. That's an accident, and the kids had very little to do with that.

I highly doubt the kids' intent was to kill him; it's an most likely an unfortunate accident that nobody involved wanted to happen. I personally don't think the kids should even be charged with manslaughter, unless there is some way to prove they were planning on killing him anyways.


Depends on which time he fell over caused the fatal head wound. The first time he fell, he was punched.
#12
Quote by Deliriumbassist
Depends on which time he fell over caused the fatal head wound. The first time he fell, he was punched.

Good point.
#14
Quote by chookiecookie
I feel an impending shitstorm.

Nah, there's no racism, sexism or police violence involved. The Pit doesn't go into shitstorms about legal matters without those components.

Really, it all depends on the final autopsy and what the doctors determine as the definite cause of death. Like Deliriumbassist said, it all depends on what blow to the head was the fatal one.

There's not enough information to say anything for certain right now.
#15
Quote by CoreysMonster
Nah, there's no racism, sexism or police violence involved. The Pit doesn't go into shitstorms about legal matters without those components.


hey fak you bro. you dare deny my feels!?

I don't care either way. I'm just bored as shit

I love you.

sorry.
ayy lmao
#16
Quote by CoreysMonster
Nah, there's no racism, sexism or police violence involved. The Pit doesn't go into shitstorms about legal matters without those components.

Really, it all depends on the final autopsy and what the doctors determine as the definite cause of death. Like Deliriumbassist said, it all depends on what blow to the head was the fatal one.

There's not enough information to say anything for certain right now.


I personally think that's getting way too technical.

If you're going to ask did the kids literally and very directly caused his death, then the answer is no probably not.
But they are still the reason he died.
Had they not pursued him, beating him along the way he wouldn't have died.

And even moreso, he was clearly very scared as he called for help from a passing vehicle. That would have made him very very hasty in his attempts to escape.
leading to recklessness.
It's over simplified, So what!

Quote by eGraham
I'm going to be on top of what is called a knob
Quote by theguitarist
Big ones can be fun in some ways but generally, they are a pain in the ass.
Quote by Wolfinator-x
I don't know what is going on in this thread or why I have an erection.
#17
I vote we lock all 6 kids in an incinerator and let natural selection take the ones that aren't naturally resistant to being burned to death.
ayy lmao
#18
Quote by chookiecookie
I vote we lock all 6 kids in an incinerator and let natural selection take the ones that aren't naturally resistant to being burned to death.


simply brilliant
It's over simplified, So what!

Quote by eGraham
I'm going to be on top of what is called a knob
Quote by theguitarist
Big ones can be fun in some ways but generally, they are a pain in the ass.
Quote by Wolfinator-x
I don't know what is going on in this thread or why I have an erection.
#19
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
I personally think that's getting way too technical.

If you're going to ask did the kids literally and very directly caused his death, then the answer is no probably not.
But they are still the reason he died.
Had they not pursued him, beating him along the way he wouldn't have died.

And even moreso, he was clearly very scared as he called for help from a passing vehicle. That would have made him very very hasty in his attempts to escape.
leading to recklessness.

Ehhh..... If a construction worker dies on the job from a hammer falling on his head, who's fault is it? The guy who dropped the hammer? His boss for making him work? Himself for choosing the job as a construction worker?

I know it's not a good or fair comparison, my point is simply that if it was death caused by a fall resulting from the kids chasing him, and they had no intention of killing him, then it was an accident that nobody should legally be responsible for, IMO. Bad luck, shit happens and all that.

Like I said, they should still totally be convicted for beating him and robbing, I have no sympathy for those asshats in the least. I won't even care if they ARE convicted for manslaughter, I just don't think they should be, unless they were the direct cause of his death.

But again, not a legal expert in the slightest

EDIT: TOO MANY JOHNNY BRAVOS
#20
Quote by CoreysMonster


EDIT: TOO MANY JOHNNY BRAVOS


Wait until skynyrd starts posting.
ayy lmao
#21
The most they would get charged with is manslaughter.
If they had not chased the man, he would not have fallen and hit his head, if that was the cause of death.
They would be indirectly responsible for his death if that is the case.
#22
Quote by CoreysMonster
Ehhh..... If a construction worker dies on the job from a hammer falling on his head, who's fault is it? The guy who dropped the hammer? His boss for making him work? Himself for choosing the job as a construction worker?

I know it's not a good or fair comparison, my point is simply that if it was death caused by a fall resulting from the kids chasing him, and they had no intention of killing him, then it was an accident that nobody should legally be responsible for, IMO. Bad luck, shit happens and all that.

Like I said, they should still totally be convicted for beating him and robbing, I have no sympathy for those asshats in the least. I won't even care if they ARE convicted for manslaughter, I just don't think they should be, unless they were the direct cause of his death.

But again, not a legal expert in the slightest

EDIT: TOO MANY JOHNNY BRAVOS


I understand your point, it just pisses me off that this happened, I'm probably letting my emotions cloud my judgement.


and the edit
It's over simplified, So what!

Quote by eGraham
I'm going to be on top of what is called a knob
Quote by theguitarist
Big ones can be fun in some ways but generally, they are a pain in the ass.
Quote by Wolfinator-x
I don't know what is going on in this thread or why I have an erection.
#23
They had intent to hurt or kill him, reinforced by chasing him 3 times, they would have eventually killed him. They did cause this mans death, and im surprised it hasnt been released of their race. groups of white men dont usually do this.

edit: before you bash me for being racist, type in "group of white men beat up..." into google and you get white man beaten up.
Last edited by jrcsgtpeppers at Jul 20, 2013,
#24
Quote by Obsceneairwaves
Alright so this happened a few months ago, and I didn't particularly hear much about it. But this hit the news today, and well... It's pretty shit.

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/western-australia/man-allegedly-chased-to-his-death/story-fnii5thn-1226682206483


and according to this article, http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/18074050/teen-refused-bail-over-fatal-bashing/
It appears like the defence is going to try and get the guy charged with violent robbery instead of murder, because the victim appears to have died from head injuries consistent with falling. (even though it could also just be clever editing, I doubt that's the case)

So they beat and chased a scared and desperate man until he fell and fatally hit his head.
I don't care if he's under 18, there's no ****ing way he should be released on bail.
thoughts?


EDIT: I've been corrected, It wouldn't be murder. but perhaps manslaughter.
either way, should they be held accountable?


It's murder even if the idiotic law system argues otherwise. The thugs responsible should be executed or at the very least locked away without parole for the rest of their lives.
#25
Quote by feathers632
It's murder even if the idiotic law system argues otherwise. The thugs responsible should be executed or at the very least locked away without parole for the rest of their lives.

#28
Obviously they'll get charged with something but I'd be very surprised if it was murder. But things might be different in Aus.
#29
manslaughter

which should be worse than murder. it sounds so much worse. like fkin slaughter man, murder sounds way daintier.
#30
Quote by CoreysMonster
Beating people still isn't killing people.

The head injuries may still have come from the beating. You don't have to fall unconscious immediately when you hurt your head.
I know a guy who got hit in the head during work by a piece of lamp truss. But he did his job and even drove home, before he fell ill and noticed that he had a severe brain concussion.
Quote by Anthropocentric
Your balls. You lost the right to them. Hand them over.


Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
What kind of person needs to have a Flying V shoved up their vagina?



Join The 7-String Legion! Now!
#31
Quote by CoreysMonster
He wouldn't have died had he not fallen down. That was the action that directly led to his death. That's an accident, and the kids had very little to do with that.

You sure about that?
Quote by MetalGS3SE
This is the best idea I have ever heard. Ever.

Naedauuf for president people.


#32
Quote by naedauuf
You sure about that?

Nope. :I

Which is why I said that we can't be sure about anything until the final autopsy.
#33
Personally, I would say it's definitely manslaughter.
I thought murder was to do with intent, rather than having to be pre-meditated, whereas manslaughter is basically an accident.
I personally think they should be charged with at least intent to cause GBH and manslaughter. Murder? Well, maybe they didn't mean to kill him, but then again, how do we know they weren't going to chase him until he was very tired, then beat him to death anyway? Perhaps they did mean to murder him.
Regardless, I advocate a very long prison sentence. Hard manual labour would be good too.
#35
Quote by AcousticMetal99
Personally, I would say it's definitely manslaughter.
I thought murder was to do with intent, rather than having to be pre-meditated, whereas manslaughter is basically an accident.
I personally think they should be charged with at least intent to cause GBH and manslaughter. Murder? Well, maybe they didn't mean to kill him, but then again, how do we know they weren't going to chase him until he was very tired, then beat him to death anyway? Perhaps they did mean to murder him.
Regardless, I advocate a very long prison sentence. Hard manual labour would be good too.

It doesn't have to be pre-meditated to be first degree (there are other ways to get there), but for it to be murder you pretty much have to mean to cause death or be committing bodily harm that you know is likely to cause death. You have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they meant to chase him until he tired and then kill him. You can't just go "how do they know they weren't going to...therefore murder".
#36
Quote by CoreysMonster
Nope. :I

Which is why I said that we can't be sure about anything until the final autopsy.

I meant to say that in reply to you saying the kids had very little to do with that. Had it not been for the kids, this guy would've been alive to walk home from work another day. Everything that happened was a direct result of the actions taken by these kids. They didn't straight up murder the guy, but they put him in such a situation where it was probable.

Definite manslaughter, at the very least involuntary manslaughter. Murder, I don't think so.
Quote by MetalGS3SE
This is the best idea I have ever heard. Ever.

Naedauuf for president people.


#37
Quote by naedauuf
I meant to say that in reply to you saying the kids had very little to do with that. Had it not been for the kids, this guy would've been alive to walk home from work another day. Everything that happened was a direct result of the actions taken by these kids. They didn't straight up murder the guy, but they put him in such a situation where it was probable.

Definite manslaughter, at the very least involuntary manslaughter. Murder, I don't think so.

The way I see it is, if the guy slipped and conked his head, which resulted in his death, then it was not an action of the kids that killed him. It's not like driving a car and crashing into someone else and killing them, it was a fault of the guy himself, in that he slipped and fell, that resulted in his death. The circumstances of why he was running, and then slipped, should not matter.
#38
It doesn't matter whether the kids intended to kill him or not. It's manslaughter. They were doing something stupid and criminal and someone died as a result.

A drunk who gets behind the wheel and kills someone is charged with vehicular homicide, even though he never meant to kill anyone, he was just drunk and made the stupid and illegal decision to drive.

If I'm out in the country shooting a gun, and some woman half a mile down range falls dead on her porch, I will be charged with manslaughter at a minimum for being so stupid as to not make sure that my firing range was clear. Even though I never meant to harm anyone.

Intent has nothing to do with it. Bad choices result in bad situations which have consequences.
Better, Faster, Stronger

Kansas City Chiefs

Kansas State Wildcats
Quote by airbrendie
Hey guys in the last 3 weeks I ****ed all the girls in this picture, what do you think?

#39
Quote by CoreysMonster
The way I see it is, if the guy slipped and conked his head, which resulted in his death, then it was not an action of the kids that killed him. It's not like driving a car and crashing into someone else and killing them, it was a fault of the guy himself, in that he slipped and fell, that resulted in his death. The circumstances of why he was running, and then slipped, should not matter.


Of course the circumstances matter.

To take your earlier argument: If I go into a crowded place and throw a hammer up in the air and it hits someone on its way down, killing them. Should I not be blamed? Technically, I didn't mean to kill anyone, I just wanted to throw my damn hammer up in the air! But if i hadn't thrown my hammer, nobody would've died. I chose to throw that hammer, whatever consequences of that might be is on me.

The argument is a bit far out, but essentially it's the same. They chose to beat down and chase a man, whatever consequences that may have is 100% on them.
Current gear:
Fender Road Worn 60's Strat
Hohner SE35
Squier Classic Vibe 50's Tele
Yahama FG730S
Marshall Class 5
#40
There's a (sort of) similar case involving Purple Aki. He turned up at a train station and a guy ran away and was electrocuted on the tracks. Initially he was found guilty of with manslaughter, but that was later overturned because his mere presence wasn't an unlawful act.

So if it was under UK law, it would at least be manslaughter.

For murder you'd have to show they had intent to kill or cause serious harm, and that the victims died as a result of the defendants' actions i.e. as a foreseeable consequence of their actions, with no third party intervening.

Seems like you should be able to do that, at least from the info given in the article.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
Page 1 of 2