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#1
Hey all -

Decently simple question here, I'm just ignorant .

If I'm in the key of G major, and I'm currently playing the 4th (C major), what do I write down to label adding a F# to that chord? (So it would be C-E-G-F#).

I would think it would be Cb5 or something, but I figured it is a good thing to check with people who know what they are talking about .

Thanks!
- Alex
#2
C(#4). The key signature of G major has no flats, only a single sharp. So, even though a b5 and a #4 are the same in terms of sound, #4 is correct.
#3
Ah, okay. It seems a bit silly to have to use jazzy-looking notation to label chords within a key, but I suppose that's what happens when chords are labelled based solely on their own specific major scale. It works though . Thanks!
#5
Quote by griffRG7321
You know what I'd label it as?

IV

Thats rather bland... pffft. Theory sucks... I'm taking up origami

edit: small question though.... why can't you label it as an add #11? Label used here as description of chord, not as function... *makes a paper train*
Last edited by evolucian at Jul 23, 2013,
#7
C add#11
"Air created the greenness. And once you've got something, that leads to otherness." - Karl Pilkington.
#8
It is essentially Cmaj7#11.

It can't be b5 because the 5th, G, is a perfect 5th. F# is a 4th of C.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#9
Quote by griffRG7321
If I had to, I'd call it C(#11), #4 is retarded

Depending upon the octave, it's not. That said, it's probably safe to assume that the F# in not in the same octave as the root.
#10
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Depending upon the octave, it's not. That said, it's probably safe to assume that the F# in not in the same octave as the root.

No, the 2/4/6 9/11/13 is determined by available extensions and chord types.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#11
if your only using triads it would be 1 3 5 +11 - C add 11

if your using 4 note chords then 1 3 5 7 #11 - Cmaj7#11 (often called Maj7b5)

play well

wolf
Last edited by wolflen at Jul 23, 2013,
#12
Cadd#11.
Drop the fifth and add a seven to make it a Cmaj7#11. It's a nicer sounding chord.
#13
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Depending upon the octave, it's not. That said, it's probably safe to assume that the F# in not in the same octave as the root.


Even if it was, the presence of a bass voice would make it an 11th. If the bass voice was 2 octaves lower it wouldn't make the chord C add compound #11...
#14
4 is only appropriate if there's no 3rd.

You can break a scale down to chord tones:

scale degrees 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = Root 9th 3rd 11th 5th 13th 7th

generally, that is. 2 and 4 are used only as suspensions/substitutes of the root and third.

-------

Theory zone:

You can have an 11th anywhere in the chord voicing, but the name implies a particular function. While you can put the 11th anywhere you want, placing it near or below the root might change the function upon listening. If you have something goofy like C/F# in the key of G, it actually needs to function as a IV chord to retain the label. If the voicing causes the chord to stop sounding like its named function, you might consider naming it for a different root.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jul 24, 2013,
#16
If I saw C maj7#11 (CΔ7#11), I would be playing

C E G B (D) F#

Now, this has like... 6 notes. But the original chord asked about only had C E G and F#. This isn't exactly congruent.

Besides, why not mark it as C dom 7 #11 (C7#11) then? It's just as fair to have a dominant altered chord, is it not? Especially as a secondary function. It is unknown if the B in question is natural or flat.

Personally, I would call it C Major add #11, because C Major is C E G and #11 is then F#, which undeniably results in the pitches inquired in the initial question.
#17
Quote by griffRG7321
Even if it was, the presence of a bass voice would make it an 11th.

Hence why I corrected myself and said that we can assume the F# isn't in the same octave.
#18
Quote by laroon
If I saw C maj7#11 (CΔ7#11), I would be playing

C E G B (D) F#

Now, this has like... 6 notes. But the original chord asked about only had C E G and F#. This isn't exactly congruent.

Besides, why not mark it as C dom 7 #11 (C7#11) then? It's just as fair to have a dominant altered chord, is it not? Especially as a secondary function. It is unknown if the B in question is natural or flat.

Personally, I would call it C Major add #11, because C Major is C E G and #11 is then F#, which undeniably results in the pitches inquired in the initial question.


Because unless it Bb is showing up in any other chord in the progression, like in a Gm7...it's much more reasonable to consider it is a maj7, implied by default, and unless there's something otherwise, compulsory, to assume it's a B natural.

Besides, that, the guitar uses limited voicings all the time, because of range of motion, strings and available fingers. Try this. Go play a C13, chord...using all the notes, on a 6 string. I'll wait.

Best,

Sean
#19
Cmaj(add#11).
Join the 7 String Legion!

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#20
Interesting, I must join this discussion!

So I'm gonna go through everything from the beginning to make things as clear as possible from my point of view, hope no one takes offense. As previous comments has cleared up already, the F# isn't in the C major scale, and the presence of G ruins the simple solution of a diminished fifth. Therefore we are left with two options, which is adding either an augmented fourth or augmented eleventh.

There were comments about "C(#11)" and "#4" which is not too far off. But since 11 chords have both added b7 and 11 notes, I would like to put in a "add" to clear up the fact that we are adding only that note, just like we do with add9 chords to not confuse it with a 9 chord which also has the b7. So yeah, I agree with Lavatain and whoever else it was saying Cadd#11. But since only alexwgold knows if he wants the F# between the E and G or after, he can decide among "Cadd#4" and "Cadd#11", which can be equally correct.

Hope that cleared things up for you alexwgold, but just ask if it didn't!

//Robert
#21
Why do you keep bumping old threads, Arzosah? Jeese, dude. This thread is over a month old, and you really didn't add anything.
#22
Quote by Arzosah
Interesting, I must join this discussion!

So I'm gonna go through everything from the beginning to make things as clear as possible from my point of view, hope no one takes offense. As previous comments has cleared up already, the F# isn't in the C major scale, and the presence of G ruins the simple solution of a diminished fifth. Therefore we are left with two options, which is adding either an augmented fourth or augmented eleventh.

There were comments about "C(#11)" and "#4" which is not too far off. But since 11 chords have both added b7 and 11 notes, I would like to put in a "add" to clear up the fact that we are adding only that note, just like we do with add9 chords to not confuse it with a 9 chord which also has the b7. So yeah, I agree with Lavatain and whoever else it was saying Cadd#11. But since only alexwgold knows if he wants the F# between the E and G or after, he can decide among "Cadd#4" and "Cadd#11", which can be equally correct.

Hope that cleared things up for you alexwgold, but just ask if it didn't!

//Robert


Actually, I'm glad you posted - somehow I didn't get notified of other replies until yours. A few questions, then, for a noob as myself.

1) So numbers from 2-7 must be in the same octave as the root, while 9-14 (never seen a 14, odd) are above that root? And the 2/4 imply removing the 3/5? (is 2 correlated with 3 and 4 with 5 or something else?)

2) Someone said that C11 implies not only adding a 4th but also a b7 (I think it was b7) -- that's a dominant 7, right? So Bb with C? Whereas Cadd11 would just have the 4th (F) in the upper octave. I've always wondered what the "add" thing was about, that's good to know .

3) Everyone seemed to agree that you couldn't say b5 because it was a 'perfect fifth' - are all fifths perfect, or what does that mean?

Thanks, I'm tying up some loose ends in my basic understanding here .
- Alex
#23
Quote by alexwgold
Actually, I'm glad you posted - somehow I didn't get notified of other replies until yours. A few questions, then, for a noob as myself.

1) So numbers from 2-7 must be in the same octave as the root, while 9-14 (never seen a 14, odd) are above that root? And the 2/4 imply removing the 3/5? (is 2 correlated with 3 and 4 with 5 or something else?)

No, the numbers are based on what other notes are already present in the chord. Speaking very broadly, they can be in any octave relative to the root.

Remember that chords are built up in thirds - 1 3 5 7 9 11 13. If you have a C triad and stick D in it, that's a 9th because 1 3 5 (7) 9.

2, 4, and 6 are only used if you're substituting a note that's already in the chord. If you take that C triad and raise the C to a D, that's a 2. If you raise the 3, that's a 4. If you have a C maj7 and lower the 7th, that's a 6.

2) Someone said that C11 implies not only adding a 4th but also a b7 (I think it was b7) -- that's a dominant 7, right? So Bb with C? Whereas Cadd11 would just have the 4th (F) in the upper octave. I've always wondered what the "add" thing was about, that's good to know .


Yes, that's correct. "Add" means just sticking the added note in the chord regardless of whatever notes are there. The number alone, like C13, implies that every chord tone up to that can/should be included.

And yes, it implies a b7, because in the kind of very traditional music that spawned these naming conventions, the dominant b7 was about the only time you'd actually use a 7th as a chord tone. In classical music you might see a major or minor 7th show up in a melody for flavor, but you wouldn't include it in a final resolution. The b7 on the dominant chord is/was actually emphasized as part of the chord to bring out the the tense tritone.

3) Everyone seemed to agree that you couldn't say b5 because it was a 'perfect fifth' - are all fifths perfect, or what does that mean?

It can't be b5 because the chord already has a 5th, (and F# isn't "flat" anything). You only get one of each chord tone.

The "perfect" interval naming thing is, again, a relic of traditional music. Namely, counterpoint.

You have three intervals that are "perfect": 4th, 5th, and octave. When you alter the 5th (or octave, but that's extremely unusual), it's either diminished (flat) or augmented (sharp). It has those labels because it's still some kind of 5th no matter what.

All the other intervals are major or minor - 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th. Only the 7th comes in major, minor, and diminished varieties. 6ths can be augmented, but you're not likely to come across that outside of analyzing 19th century symphonic scores.

Remember that the chord tone number doesn't necessarily reflect the actual interval. There can be any number of octaves between the notes and they can be in nearly any order while retaining their functions.
Last edited by cdgraves at Aug 10, 2013,
#24
1) So numbers from 2-7 must be in the same octave as the root, while 9-14 (never seen a 14, odd) are above that root? And the 2/4 imply removing the 3/5? (is 2 correlated with 3 and 4 with 5 or something else?)

People tend to disagree on this, and the discussion often revolves around it being 2/4 or 11/13, this is what I've learned and how I see it.

Ex.
C D E F G A B C D E F
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

The way I see it is that if you for example want an added D to a C chord, and you want it between the Root (C) and 3rd (E) in pitch you should name it add2, and if you want it higher than the 3rd (E) you should name it add9.
But books say different things and people tend to be sure of themselves (yes even me), but you should always be open to discussion and maybe someone comes along and opens up your eyes to a new point of view. I mean what is really "correct", it's not like there is a bible of music theory that says "this is correct".
Hmm, that 2/4 imply removing the 3/5 I don't really get, sus2/sus4 (suspended) chords removes the 3 if that's what you mean?


2) Someone said that C11 implies not only adding a 4th but also a b7 (I think it was b7) -- that's a dominant 7, right? So Bb with C? Whereas Cadd11 would just have the 4th (F) in the upper octave. I've always wondered what the "add" thing was about, that's good to know

Yes that is right, 11 chords also add the b7, since adding the seventh note from a major scale gives you a maj7 you have to put in the b which in this case makes the B a Bb. Yes, the add chords only gives you the added 4 or 11 note.


3) Everyone seemed to agree that you couldn't say b5 because it was a 'perfect fifth' - are all fifths perfect, or what does that mean?

Not all fifths are perfect, but if you have the fifth from the C major scale (which is G) or any other scale without changing it then it's "perfect", you cannot also have a diminished/augmented fifth:

C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Perfect fifth = 7 half steps
augmented = one half step higher = #
diminished = one half step lower = b


//Robert
#25
Quote by cdgraves
No, the numbers are based on what other notes are already present in the chord. Speaking very broadly, they can be in any octave relative to the root.

Remember that chords are built up in thirds - 1 3 5 7 9 11 13. If you have a C triad and stick D in it, that's a 9th because 1 3 5 (7) 9.

2, 4, and 6 are only used if you're substituting a note that's already in the chord. If you take that C triad and raise the C to a D, that's a 2. If you raise the 3, that's a 4. If you have a C maj7 and lower the 7th, that's a 6.


Let's agree to disagree to not overflood the thread, you explain it well and we have obviously learned differently.
#26
well I had to think about what logical pattern dictates here. I really can't think of a situation where you'd have both a root and a 2, or a 6th next to a 7th.
#27
Quote by cdgraves
well I had to think about what logical pattern dictates here. I really can't think of a situation where you'd have both a root and a 2, or a 6th next to a 7th.


Agree about the "6th next to a 7th", disagree about "root and a 2"
#28
Hmmm . . . just to clarify the differences in your understandings (speaking to cdgraves and Arzosah), could you write down which notes you would include in the following four chords (in order of pitch, marking octaves if needed for clarification)?

C2, Cadd2, C9, Cadd9

Thanks!

(You can certainly include commentary on it, I'm just trying to get a standardized response so I can see what's going on.)
Last edited by alexwgold at Aug 10, 2013,
#29
Quote by alexwgold
Hmmm . . . just to clarify the differences in your understandings (speaking to cdgraves and Arzosah), could you write down which notes you would include in the following four chords (in order of pitch, marking octaves if needed for clarification)?

C2, Cadd2, C9, Cadd9

Thanks!

(You can certainly include commentary on it, I'm just trying to get a standardized response so I can see what's going on.)



Sure thing!
This is how it is from my point of view, I'll add the formula below to make it even clearer. C2 and Cadd2 is the same chord, no "add" is needed just like on a 6 chord (you can use the add2 label if you want though):

C major scale: C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

C2/Cadd2 = C D E G
2/add2 = 1 2 3 5

C9 = C E G Bb D
9 = 1 3 5 b7 9

Cadd9 = C E G D
add9 = 1 3 5 9


//Robert
#30
yeah, that's the only time I'd use a 2 label without a suspension.

You can still call C D E G a Cadd9, but C2 implies a voicing with the D next to the root.
#31
Cadd2 isn't really used that much. It doesn't matter in which octave you play the notes. The note order doesn't matter either. For example if the notes are C G C D E, is it an add9 or an add2? And what if it's voiced like C G C E G D, is it an add16?

I know add2 could be used but add9 is a lot more common and they really mean the same thing. The chord tones can be played in whatever order, as long as the root is the same. The chord name doesn't change the voicing. It can only tell which notes to play and what is the bass note but it can't tell you about the order of the notes. You can decide it by yourself. For example a C chord can be played on guitar like x32010 - C E G C E or x35553 - C G C E G. The note order is different but they are both C chords.

I think 2 and 4 are used instead of 9 and 11 only in sus chords.

Oh, and I've never seen a "C2" chord.
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#32
Actually, now that I think about it, I would probably play C2 without the third, ie x3001x.

I can imagine that lots of guitar music that uses a droning open string yields unusual chord names when taken out of context.
#33
So, all things considered, the "safest" bet in interpreting chords would be that:

1) Numbers 7 and below add the specified note and:
- may or may not imply removing (that is, replacing) the 1, 3, 5, or 7 respectively.
- may or may not imply that they should be in the same octave as the root.

2) Numbers above 7 do not replace any of the normal chord notes (1,3,5) but also adds a b7 and any other notes above 7 up to the actual number (so a 13 implies 1-3-5-b7-9-11-13). (How does this work if the chord also has a maj7? I.e. C(maj7)13. Or would that just sound terrible enough that no one does it?)

3) Numbers using the "add" bit do not affect anything beyond adding the single note represented thereof, regardless of whether it's above or below 7.

In other words, would everyone agree on the above and then have disagreements on the "may or may not" sections?

Also, since I'm asking - is a "sus2" or "sus4" the same thing as either "2" or "add2" (or "4"/"add4") or is that a third and distinct category? Or, if that's believed differently with various people, what are the general takes on that?
Last edited by alexwgold at Aug 10, 2013,
#34
Yeah, you're getting it more or less. But remember that it's very unusual to indicate a specific octave above the root.

Remember, too, that if you're playing with a bassist, it doesn't really matter where the guitarist's chord tones are because everything on guitar is an octave the bass. You can put your root at the very top of the chord or your 13th at the bottom. Specific voicing rarely matters when you're playing in ensemble.

Also Cmaj13 is a great chord, very tasty. 7x889x

--------

Suspensions are a sort of a long story if you haven't take an actual theory class.

The short answer for guitarists is that sus4 replaces the third, and sus2 replaces the root.

The long answer:

The origin of suspended harmonies/chords is in multi-part or conterpoint composition. Back then, they didn't analyze harmony chord by chord, rather they composed with multiple melodic parts that weaved through multiple chords implying a single harmony (that's what Roman Numeral analysis helps with).

With that in mind, composers would create tension by holding non-chord tones over a new chord, and then release that tension by letting the odd note fall to the one the listener expects. If you were going to create tension with C and D, you would suspend the third of the D chord for a moment by holding over the 5th from the C chord for the first beat of D, then letting it fall to the F# (G->D). The chords are C, Dsus4, D.

You can do the same thing with the root of a chord. Say you're resolving from C to F. You can hold the 5th of C out over the F, leaving it briefly rootless, and then let the G fall to the F. C Fsus2 F. Sus2 can also be in addition to the root.

So suspension is a fundamentally melodic thing. In a majority of music, it's used as I described, but in modern rock and jazz, you often see sus4 chords standing alone without implying that 4-3 or 2-1 melodic motion. Being able to recognize the difference is important if you're learning from chord charts.
Last edited by cdgraves at Aug 10, 2013,
#35
2) How does this work if the chord also has a maj7? I.e. C(maj7)13.

If it's a major seventh, Just add a maj/M before, maj9/M9 or maj11/M11. The maj/M always indicates the 7th, not the 9th or 11th.


3) Numbers using the "add" bit do not affect anything beyond adding the single note represented thereof, regardless of whether it's above or below 7.

Correct!


4) Also, since I'm asking - is a "sus2" or "sus4" the same thing as either "2" or "add2" (or "4"/"add4") or is that a third and distinct category? Or, if that's believed differently with various people, what are the general takes on that?

No, sus (suspended) is something else, it removes the 3rd and adds the 2 and/or 4 depending what kind of sus you want. To keep them apart I always teach that you "replace" the 3rd with the 2nd/4th, to not confuse further by using anything remotely close to "add"

//Robert
#36
Arzosah,

So, in your labels, both C2 and Cadd2 would be C-D-E-G, where as Csus2 would be C-D-G (and Csus4, likewise, would be C-E-F#)?

Also, the two of you (Arzosah and cdgraves) seem to disagree with a sus2 - Arzosah says it's the 3rd replaced by the 2nd, whereas cdgraves says that it's the 1st replaced by the 2nd. Anyone care to note on the difference of opinion?
Last edited by alexwgold at Aug 10, 2013,
#37
Quote by alexwgold
Arzosah,

So, in your labels, both C2 and Cadd2 would be C-D-E-G, where as Csus2 would be C-D-G (and Csus4, likewise, would be C-E-F#)?


If you accidently wrote "Csus4, likewise, would be C-E-F#", and meant that Csus4 would be C F G, then yes

Since C major scale is: C D E F G A B C

sus2 = 1 2 5
Csus2 = C D G
sus4 = 1 4 5
Csus4 = C F G

//Robert
#38
Sorry, yeah, bit of a typo there . But see my above (edited) comment about what sus2 is replacing, still not sure on that one .
#39
You mean this?

Quote by alexwgold
Also, the two of you (Arzosah and cdgraves) seem to disagree with a sus2 - Arzosah says it's the 3rd replaced by the 2nd, whereas cdgraves says that it's the 1st replaced by the 2nd. Anyone care to note on the difference of opinion?


Well, in my opinion it's as you can read in my previous comment, it doesn't matter if it's a sus2 or sus4, it always replaces the 3rd (ex. E in a C major scale). But await further additions to the discussion if you want more opinions if you wish
#40
Linguistically, wouldn't the idea of "suspending" it imply that it was above where it would then fall to (as in the 4th dropping to the 3rd)? In this case, I could see why someone would argue for the sus2 replacing the 1st. Then again, if the sus2 replaces the 1st, then how would C-D-G be labelled?

Likewise, Arzosah, how would you label a rootless chord like (C)-D-E-G (that is, a sus2 in cdgraves' labeling)?
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