#1
I've learnt the major scale in all keys in all the different positions, what is the next scale that you'd say is best to learn next?
#2
You should learn the intervals of the minor scale and all the notes on the fretboard next. Forget all this position nonsense.
#3
Can you use the major scale?

And yeah, learn the intervals and the minor scale. Remember the sound, not just fingerings.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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#5
Quote by mjpb
I've learnt the major scale in all keys in all the different positions, what is the next scale that you'd say is best to learn next?

That seems like a big waste of time.

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
You should learn the intervals of the minor scale and all the notes on the fretboard next. Forget all this position nonsense.

Heed this advice.
#6
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Remember the sound, not just fingerings.

I should have mentioned that. One tool that's great (besides, of course, actually sitting down and playing) is this lesson from musictheory.net:

http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/22

It discusses all 3 main types of minor scales (natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor), but the best thing about lessons on that site is that, while you're following along, you can also click on the piano icon in the upper right hand corner. This pops out a little piano interface. So, you can also play each interval. Hearing is probably even more important than reading about this stuff.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jul 26, 2013,
#7
Blues everything else is a waste of time.
Someone is wrong on the internet. Only you can help.

Originally Posted by Tulkas
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#8
Learn/practice the diatonic triads in the same manner.

Put the major scales in your warmup routine, running all 12 should only take a few minutes. If you want more scale work, get the melodic and harmonic minors going. Diminished won't hurt, either, though you may find it's not terribly useful once you know your dominant arpeggios.

Bear in mind that scales as a practice tool are useful because they give you a fundamentally musical blank slate: you can play them in 3rds/4ths/5ths/etc, with varying rhythms, varying dynamics, varying speed... it's like a runner who has a measured track to all their workouts on.

Quote by macashmack
That seems like a big waste of time.


Heed this advice.


Don't knock it til you try it. The point of learning scales isn't to play scales, it's to play everything that uses scales. Which is pretty much all of music.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jul 26, 2013,
#9
Quote by cdgraves

Don't knock it til you try it. The point of learning scales isn't to play scales, it's to play everything that uses scales. Which is pretty much all of music.

I'm not knocking it - that was how I attacked the guitar in the beginning.
Now I know that it isn't as good a way to go about it. Learning all the notes and how to construct the scales, even learning all the scales by heart by notes/intervals instead of finger placements, does the same thing as learning the shapes and positions but also gives insight on theory, helps with reading music, helps with understanding voice leading much better (this one is really huge), chord construction, inversions, etc. while also making improv/soloing more fun and sound better (you can more easily attack chord tone and embellishments because you know what is going on).
As I said in another thread, learning scale shapes is like a middle man; I think you should cut out the middle man.
#11
Quote by cdgraves
Don't knock it til you try it. The point of learning scales isn't to play scales, it's to play everything that uses scales. Which is pretty much all of music.

So, why exactly would you bother to learn all 12 scales, except as a memory exercise, as opposed to learning the intervals of a scale? I've yet to hear a good explanation on this from the "learn all 12 scales" crowd...

Quote by macashmack
I'm not knocking it - that was how I attacked the guitar in the beginning.
Now I know that it isn't as good a way to go about it. Learning all the notes and how to construct the scales, even learning all the scales by heart by notes/intervals instead of finger placements, does the same thing as learning the shapes and positions but also gives insight on theory, helps with reading music, helps with understanding voice leading much better (this one is really huge), chord construction, inversions, etc. while also making improv/soloing more fun and sound better (you can more easily attack chord tone and embellishments because you know what is going on).
As I said in another thread, learning scale shapes is like a middle man; I think you should cut out the middle man.

Damn, mac, you're on fire today/tonight! I really couldn't have said this better myself.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jul 26, 2013,
#12
i would say only start learning new scales if you've become decent at improvising with the ones you have learnt. but what do i know? haha
#13
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
So, why exactly would you bother to learn all 12 scales, except as a memory exercise, as opposed to learning the intervals of a scale? I've yet to hear a good explanation on this from the "learn all 12 scales" crowd...


Damn, mac, you're on fire today/tonight! I really couldn't have said this better myself.

Thanks man
#14
Quote by johnyere
i would say only start learning new scales if you've become decent at improvising with the ones you have learnt. but what do i know? haha

TS already stated he can improvise in the major scale.

Quote by macashmack
Thanks man

You're welcome.
#16
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
So, why exactly would you bother to learn all 12 scales, except as a memory exercise, as opposed to learning the intervals of a scale?

I didn't say learn finger positions, I said learn scales. They're pretty easy to learn, and contain a lot of very useful musical information.

I'm really lost as to how "scales" is interpreted as "Finger positions". How do you learn a scale without learning the intervals?

When I learned scales I sat down, wrote each one out according to the formulas, worked them all out on the guitar based on the notes and interval patterns, and then practiced them up to competency. For a novice, it's an extremely valuable experience.

There are only 12 keys. Being fluid in all of them is very basic musicianship.
#17
Quote by cdgraves
I didn't say learn finger positions, I said learn scales. They're pretty easy to learn, and contain a lot of very useful musical information.

I'm really lost as to how "scales" is interpreted as "Finger positions". How do you learn a scale without learning the intervals?

When I learned scales I sat down, wrote each one out according to the formulas, worked them all out on the guitar based on the notes and interval patterns, and then practiced them up to competency. For a novice, it's an extremely valuable experience.

There are only 12 keys. Being fluid in all of them is very basic musicianship.

A lot of guitarists go "Oh I can play the major scale shape, therefore I can play the scale in any key."

Of course technically they're right but they don't have any understanding, and wouldn't be able to use it properly.

What you did is exactly what any novice should do, but a lot of people who learn guitar just don't care about that and either want to play as fast as possible, or just play simple songs/their favourite songs, and don't care about theory whatsoever.
#18
Yea learn your minor and the intervals that make it up begin by going back four frets from the root of your major key and boom theirs your relative minor take the steps from there to learn it for your self like we all did and map it out. Everyone's right it's not enough to just learn the fingerings you have to understand the intervals you know like why is a maj 3rd a maj 3rd and not a minor 3rd. But the work you put in to knowing the patterns is not a waste it's a decent first step to visualization and awareness. Guitar is very pattern based its just the nature of its layout.

Its what makes us guitarist lazy to understand music further because it's such an easy instrument to take these patterns and shapes and move em around. But if you want to really understand the reason for the shapes of your scales or chords you have to analyze them for yourself so learn your intervals. Then you can analyze the sounds you use on guitar like why is this a minor chord or scale, why is this a major chord or scale etc it's the next tier or awareness as a musician/player good luck hope I helped a little.
#19
Quote by mjpb
I've learnt the major scale in all keys in all the different positions, what is the next scale that you'd say is best to learn next?


Nice work! Can you listen to any song and instantly identify the key of it?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#20
Quote by cdgraves
I didn't say learn finger positions, I said learn scales. They're pretty easy to learn, and contain a lot of very useful musical information.

Ok, I clearly misunderstood you big time. My bad, man.

I'm really lost as to how "scales" is interpreted as "Finger positions".

With some of the posts we get from people, I probably tend to assume things I shouldn't here. I suppose when I hear "learn all scales", I tend to get reminded of the crowd who post box shapes and whatnot. I apologize.

How do you learn a scale without learning the intervals?

Box shapes. And stupidity of all kinds.
My 1st two guitar teachers didn't even teach me the intervals (which didn't matter back then but sure is a "wtf" thing now), just box shapes and riffs. It wasn't until I was about 16 (3 or so years into my playing) that I even knew there were intervals to scales, because my 3rd guitar teacher actually knew what he was doing.

When I learned scales I sat down, wrote each one out according to the formulas, worked them all out on the guitar based on the notes and interval patterns, and then practiced them up to competency. For a novice, it's an extremely valuable experience.

I would agree with that 100%.

Quote by Fourfourforever
Yea learn your minor and the intervals that make it up begin by going back four frets from the root of your major key and boom theirs your relative minor

[snip]

And this is why I get awful leary of hearing "learn all your scales", because going back four frets from the root of your major scale almost implies "BOX SHAPE". Btw, I wasn't trying to discount the rest of what you said -- in fact, I agree with your general points.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jul 27, 2013,
#21
thank you everyone for your valuable information, although i did learn the major scale using 'patterns' i do have an understanding of intervals and the theory behind it but ill definately take your advice and not learn scales like this in the future. As you can tell i'm a beginner and i'm having to teach myself now as i can't afford lessons any more so thanks a lot.
#22
Quote by AlanHB
Nice work! Can you listen to any song and instantly identify the key of it?

no !
#23
Quote by mjpb
no !


Yes well you can see that you need to know the key of a song to identify what scale to play over it. I'd get working on this.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#24
Quote by AlanHB
Yes well you can see that you need to know the key of a song to identify what scale to play over it. I'd get working on this.

yeah, i understand. how do you learn to hear what key its in?
#25
trial and error to begin, but your ear will learn to recognize where notes lie in relation to the key.
#26
Quote by mjpb
yeah, i understand. how do you learn to hear what key its in?

Sing solfeggi and use the functional ear trainer by miles.be
I feel like I'm giving Hotspurs's advice lol.
#27
^^^ Yeah, trial and error. There are some simple tricks, for example a lot of songs end on the chord that is the tonic/root of the key, However not all songs do and this doesn't accomodate for key changes, so it's only a trick that works sometimes. You can also use theory knowledge in a lot of cases to identify the key, but sometimes it's still ambiguous. The only definite way is to train your ear to hear the tonal center.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#28
Quote by AlanHB
^^^ Yeah, trial and error. There are some simple tricks, for example a lot of songs end on the chord that is the tonic/root of the key, However not all songs do and this doesn't accomodate for key changes, so it's only a trick that works sometimes. You can also use theory knowledge in a lot of cases to identify the key, but sometimes it's still ambiguous. The only definite way is to train your ear to hear the tonal center.


Thank you, but how exactly do you train your ear to hear the tonal centre ?
#29
Err it just happened over time for me. I can't point to a specific method, I learnt before the internet was what it is now, without a teacher. I used to play notes going up the high E string until one sounded good across the song and that note was usually the tonic or the 5th of the tonic. Now I can just hear it without doing the trial and error.

There's probably different/better ways to learn, but that's how I did it.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#30
Quote by mjpb
Thank you, but how exactly do you train your ear to hear the tonal centre ?

Look at my earlier comment.
#31
this thread started to really upset me till i saw that paynick guy got banned and now the water is merely tepid

learn some music by ear, TS. scale shapes are amazing warm-ups and are a good foundation to build off to understand the rudiments of tonal music and keys, but they by-and-large belong in the foreword of a book on musical understanding
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#33
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Remember the sound, not just fingerings.



Cheers to that. Excellent advice.
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