#1
i am a beginner trying to get in grips with theories.... i like the
I-IV-V progression...so when i play the c major,f major and g major progression can i play
1- c major seventh-f major diminished-g major progression????
2-c major DIMINISHED -f sixth-g augmented progression??????

i mean,there are like 27 variations of the c chord[ HALF of them are variations of C MAJOR].....when i play in c major or f major ...can i use any of those MAJOR VARIATIONS??????
Last edited by somboral at Jul 31, 2013,
#2
to be strictly harmonic in a diatonic sense, you can use any variation of I IV and V that use notes that are in the major scale of the key of your choice. There are other ways to deal with it but they are too complex for an online response, or simply come down to "if you like the sound, do it"
#3
Just experiment, there are no rules. But most of the time if you start adding some random notes, they may sound out of place.

And what is F major diminished? What notes does it have, I've never heard of such thing?

So yeah, you can play whatever you want but it may not sound good.

And I wouldn't call them "variations" of C major chord. They are a C major chord with added notes (for example C7 = C major chord with a minor seventh). And not half of them are major and half are minor. Some of them are diminished or augmented.

But of course try those progressions, maybe you like the sound of them.
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#4
thanks for ur suggestion....i checked it out....it can either be f diminished or f major ..it cant be both....
thanks MaggaraMarine and Bad Kharmel
#5
Yeah, I would also suggest learning about chord construction and intervals. It's good to understand how to build major/minor/diminished/augmented chords and what the add notes mean.

Do you know the intervals? Do you know how they sound like (that's the most important thing - to learn how they sound like)?
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#6
I don't think there's such a thing as major diminished chord. By definition, diminished chords can't be major or minor; they're diminished.

Edit:
Quote by somboral
thanks for ur suggestion....i checked it out....it can either be f diminished or f major ..it cant be both....
thanks MaggaraMarine and Bad Kharmel

Strictly speaking, if you want to have a I-IV-V progression, you can't use an Fdiminished. Commonly used IV chords in the key of C are Fmajor, F7, & Fmaj7. As Maggara said, what do you know about chord construction? Because if you don't know the difference (both in terms of sound and in terms of notes) between F7 and Fmaj7, then you need to learn the difference.

Here's a few lessons on the basics of chords:
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/40
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/42
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/45
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/48
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/47

I recommend that you follow along by clicking the piano icon in the upper right corner and playing what the lesson shows.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jul 31, 2013,
#7
Quote by crazysam23_Atax


Strictly speaking, if you want to have a I-IV-V progression, you can't use an Fdiminished. Commonly used IV chords in the key of C are Fmajor, F7, & Fmaj7.



this is exactly what i want to know.....why i cant use f diminished in I-IV-V...if u can share these explanation type links i will be really grateful....i am not looking for short answers.... i want to know more....


crazysam23_Atax and MaggaraMarine

i know the really basic stuff about chord constuction and major 7th and 7 th chords.i understand intervals and what adding notes mean but nothing beyond that...

if u suggest anything more[stuff i need to know] it would be helpful.....
#8
F major diminished? Huh? Is that like R-3-b5? Sounds tasty.


Anyway, I'm just going to go from chord construction to cadences, so yeah, most of y'all know this stuff already. Please note, I suck at wording shit.

In a I - IV - V progression, you have three chords, any of which can be a major triad (maj), dominant chord (major chord + m7 from root), or a major seven (major chord + M7 from root). To begin, I will provide the following example in the key of E major.

Emaj - Amaj - Bmaj (repeat)

These particular chords are all major triads, comprised of the root, the major third and a perfect fifth. So, let's take our E major scale, and look at it a little more closely.

E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D# - E

I'll just throw in the fancier names for now. They'll come into play a few paragraphs down. Basically, it goes up the same as a major scale (tonic = I, supertonic = ii, mediant = iii, etc.)

Tonic - Supertonic - Mediant - Subdominant - Dominant - Submediant - Leading Tone - Tonic

Now, this is a rather unassuming view of the major scale and it's constructed chords, so let's add some more info. Basically, to get a major key chord harmonization, just start the series of notes on the third and fifth notes, in this case, G# and B, and stack it on top of the E major scale above. I will also start using code because it's easier to line stuff up.

Once we do that, we can also do our Roman Numbering, seen at the bottom.

(B)           C#          D#         (E)         (F#)         G#         A            (B)
(G#)          A           B          (C#)        (D#)         E          F#           (G#)
(E)           F#          G#         (A)         (B)          C#         D#           (E)
 I            ii          iii         IV          V           vi         vii*          I


So here, we have our fully harmonized E major scale. Though, in our chord progression, we only need to worry about the I, IV, and V, but it helps to see everything together. Now, we have the choice of whether or not we want our sevenths. Most of it comes down to the type of music, and I will break that down a bit too.

Basically, if it's Jazz, most, if not all, of your chords will be sevenths and other extended chords of differing flavors (ie; 9s, add#11s, 6/9s, 13s, etc.) that add more flavor (IMO) to the music. Otherwise, the V will likely be the only one with a seventh, which brings me to the Dominant chord function.


A
F#
D#
B

Dominant 7 on B.


When analyzing these chords, it sometimes helps to pull them apart a bit to see the two different chords that make up the full chord.


F#
D#
B

B major triad

A
F#
D#

D# diminished triad (R - b3 - b5)


Now, the function of the chord itself is not readily clear until we go about looking more closely at the individual functions of the notes themselves.


A - Subdominant (IV)
F# - Supertonic (ii)
D# - [B]Leading Tone (vii*)[/B]
B - Dominant (V)


Note the leading tone in the third. The leading tone to tonic motion, as well as the perfect fifth motion from dominant to tonic (circle movement), is what gives the V - I cadence its sense of finality. If we were to instead go IV - I, known as a Plagal Cadence, we miss out on that sense of true finality we get from the V - I, hence its name, the Authentic Cadence. In fact, the leading tone is so important, its octave register is a part of the construction of a Perfect Authentic Cadence, the other parts being the chords themselves and the placement of the bass.

Other cadences include Imperfect Authentic (anything - I, IV is an exception and V depends on note placement), Deceptive (V - anything but I), and Half (anything - V).

This might seem irrelevant (italicized part is pretty much irrelevant though), until we look again at our progression, and add a I at the very end.

I - IV - V (repeat until done/bored/tired) - I

Thus, at the very end, we have our V - I motion. By how you position your parts, this can either be the end of a song, or a continuation into another progression.

Again, in a new light, if you go IV - V and quit, you have a nice half cadence, out of which you can go nuts with other progressions (say, I-IV-V to I-IV-ii (V/V)-V-I).

This is why I - IV - V (- I) works, and sounds good. Though, to make it sound better, you have to really learn and understand voice leading, but that's way too much info for one online post, and you'd be better off asking the more experienced guys around here about it.


Sorry for that. You probably know a lot of this stuff. Though, it goes to you with the best of intentions.
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#9
Quote by somboral
this is exactly what i want to know.....why i cant use f diminished in I-IV-V...if u can share these explanation type links i will be really grateful....i am not looking for short answers.... i want to know more....

The answer is simple. A diminished chord contains a root, a flat 3rd, and a flat fifth. By contrast, a major chord contains a root, a 3rd, and a 5th. The harmony of a diminished chord doesn't work for an IV, if you're seeking to use diatonic chords. You could, of course, just say you're using a non-diatonic iv(dim), but I wouldn't recommend that when you don't even understand diatonic harmony.

Since you know the basic stuff (as you call it), after looking at the hotlink above, check out the following:
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/44
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/46
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/49
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/51

Those should get you started on understanding diatonic chords and a (very) brief intro on voicing.

Quote by Mister A.J.
[snip]


Sorry for that. You probably know a lot of this stuff. Though, it goes to you with the best of intentions.

Ok, but cadences don't directly relate to the diatonic chords of a major key. While they are part of the big picture, don't confuse the issue AND not answer the question.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Aug 1, 2013,
#10
Quote by Mister A.J.
F major diminished? Huh? Is that like R-3-b5? Sounds tasty.

Sorry for that. You probably know a lot of this stuff. Though, it goes to you with the best of intentions.



thanks for your contribution.......Mister A.J......u summarized everything in a really good manner......

i am trying to compose songs and i just want to use these diminished and augmented chords in my compositions.........
instead of playing C MAJOR-F MAJOR and G MAJOR ......I WANT TO KNOW when i can substitute the G MAJOR with a DIMINISHED or AUGMENTED chord....
OR
i want to know when AUGMENTED and DIMINISHED can be used....


about the F MAJOR diminished ......i might PATENT it as nothing exists by that name should it sound good
Last edited by somboral at Aug 1, 2013,
#11
Quote by Mister A.J.
F major diminished? Huh? Is that like R-3-b5? Sounds tasty.

I'm not sure how I missed this earlier...

No, that's not what that is. A root, major 3rd, and a flat fifth results in something like a maj7#11 chord without a major 7th. (Imagine playing this without strumming the high e string.) It pretty much will take up the same function harmonically. However, it won't sound as balanced or as "fleshed out", resulting in a rather dissonant tonality within the chord itself and rather dissonant movement from it to another chord.

Quote by somboral
thanks for your contribution.......Mister A.J......u summarized everything in a really good manner......

i am trying to compose songs and i just want to use these diminished and augmented chords in my compositions.........
instead of playing C MAJOR-F MAJOR and G MAJOR ......I WANT TO KNOW when i can substitute the G MAJOR with a DIMINISHED or AUGMENTED chord....
OR
i want to know when AUGMENTED and DIMINISHED can be used....

The short answer is this: you can use those chords anytime you like. However, I'm not sure you know enough theory to even know when using an augmented or diminished chord is going to sound good. Until you understand diatonic chords, you really shouldn't be messing around with non-diatonic chords.

Look at the links I posted here, and learn about cadences once you've mastered this first. One thing at a time...

about the F MAJOR diminished ......i might PATENT it as nothing exists by that name should it sound good

You can patent it all you like, but no one's going to take you seriously if start calling a chord "Fmajor diminished". If you want to take it as a song name or band name...well, whatever floats your boat.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Aug 1, 2013,
#12
Quote by somboral

i want to know when AUGMENTED and DIMINISHED can be used....

When you have a V chord, try subbing an aug or dim chord in there. There are other uses but that's a really quick, brief suggestion.
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#13
The vii chord in a major key is diminished. It has pretty similar function to the V chord so maybe try using it (it's actually the same as V7 but without the root note). So in the key of C major play B diminished instead of G major.

But why do you have to use the I-IV-V progression? Try other progressions. That's not the only chord progression that exists. If you start using other chords, it's no longer a I-IV-V progression, it's something else.

If you want to use augmented chords, one of the most common progressions would be C-Caug-Am/C. Try it. It has a cool half step movement G-G#-A, the other chord tones (C and E) are the same all the time.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#14
Quote by crazysam23_Atax


Here's a few lessons on the basics of chords:
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/40
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/42
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/45
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/48
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/47

I recommend that you follow along by clicking the piano icon in the upper right corner and playing what the lesson shows.



this site is really good and i am going to stick to it for a while....the things are in a very sequential and organized manner.....
i think this is going to keep me really busy for the next 2 months till the next dream theater album is out.....


thanks crazysam23_Atax,rockingamer2,MaggaraMarine and Mister A.J. for your precious comments and suggestions..... and