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#1
Many of you know Anders Behring Breivik as the convicted gunman who killed 77 people in two attacks, most of them teenagers, in 2011. He was ruled sane and given a 21 year prison sentence, minimum of 10 years before he is eligible for parole, and his term may be extended "if he is still deemed a threat to society." Breivik wants to take advantage of this time to pursue a Political Science degree from the University of Oslo.

For killing 77 people, Breivik was given a sentence of 10-21 years and his prison cell looks like this:

Bedroom:


Bath + Kitchen:


Exercise equipment:



Many of you will also be familiar with Ariel Castro, the man just convicted of kidnapping three young girls and imprisoning them and a child they had while in captivity for 10 years. During this time, he repeatedly raped and beat the women, forcing them to have miscarriages.

For the kidnapping, rape, and murder/ assault crimes associated with the beatings, Ariel Castro has been sentenced to over 1,000 years in prison. He has no possibility of parole. And while a permanent prison has not been found for him, he has been staying in the Cuyahoga County Jail during the trial, which looks like this:








Two legally sane men, two horrendous crimes, and two very different punishments given by their respective countries legal systems. What are your thoughts on this wide difference in methods of incarceration between the US and Norway?
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#2
The Norway jail is nicer than my first apartment.
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#3
Quote by VanTheKraut
Breivik wants to take advantage of this time to pursue a Political Science degree from the University of Oslo.


Wait, they're allowing him to get a university education while he's in there?

What the fuck, Norway?
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#4
Quote by necrosis1193
Wait, they're allowing him to get a university education while he's in there?

What the fuck, Norway?
We do that in the US too.

How crazy would it be replying to that dude's discussion board posts tho
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#5
Quote by lolmnt
We do that in the US too.


Wait, we do?

Why? Isn't the entire point of confining someone to a prison cell - other than removing them from society - to punish them for their actions by putting them in a small, uncomfortable environment in which there's nothing interesting or fun to do, something which giving them university level education kind of goes the exact opposite way of?
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#7
lol, Norway be crazy

He's better off killing 77 kids than just giving up and being homeless
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#9
Note to self:

IF I ever commit a serious crime, commit said crime in Norway
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#10
Quote by LostLegion
Different country different prison system.

Yeah, that was kind of the point of the OP. I even put in pictures to illustrate that.
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#11
This is because Norway believes in rehabilitation, not just punishment.

And this whole thing is always taken so badly out of context. Here in Norway we have a pretty great system with these things. We don't have a life sentence, but Breivik will be in jail for the rest of his life, that's like 99% sure.

And yes, we have good looking jails, because we're not freaking primates. What's so wrong with that? We don't believe in leaving someone in a cave to rot for a year before letting them go to commit more crimes. We rehabilitate them.

I don't know the statistics, but it's pretty damn successful as well.


Rant over.
#12
Quote by necrosis1193
Wait, we do?

Why? Isn't the entire point of confining someone to a prison cell - other than removing them from society - to punish them for their actions by putting them in a small, uncomfortable environment in which there's nothing interesting or fun to do, something which giving them university level education kind of goes the exact opposite way of?

Some would argue the point of prison is to rehabilitate a person so that they can be safely allowed back into society. Others say prison should be a form of punishment and that a prisoner's life should be hell on earth. That's a whole different discussion though.

IIRC, Norway has a very low prisoner to population ratio, so their prisons aren't packed to the brim and in shitty condition like in the US, so that might explain why the prisons in Norway are nicer than what the average American student can afford.

The fact that they got completely different sentences though is a bit interesting, considering the number of people he murdered, and the bombings he did. I don't think even a concurrent sentence would be that short.
Last edited by zincabopataurio at Aug 6, 2013,
#13
Quote by necrosis1193
Wait, we do?

Why? Isn't the entire point of confining someone to a prison cell - other than removing them from society - to punish them for their actions by putting them in a small, uncomfortable environment in which there's nothing interesting or fun to do, something which giving them university level education kind of goes the exact opposite way of?
It's punishment, but prisons try to limit repeat prison visits by teaching inmates skills so they can gain employment after their sentence is up. This is usually in the form of education (most prisons have GED classes in the prison, and an increasing number allow inmates to pursue online degrees (some prisons have college level classes taught in jail)) or vocational training to teach a skill. The thought is that if they have something legit to fall back on when they are released, they won't return to crime.

The problem is that rehabilitation tends to be an afterthought in US jails. And most of the education prisoners receive is from other inmates in how to become better criminals. For example, a eighteen year old kid might go to jail for stealing a car when the owner leaves the keys on the seat. While imprisoned he might learn how to hotwire a car. With lack of legitimate education, and now with a criminal record (making getting a regular job more difficult, if not impossible) he'll fall back into the criminal lifestyle.

But there's definitely a balance. I don't know how indicative that is of Norway prisons, but that seems like he's living like he's JD Salinger instead of like somebody who's in prison for slaughtering 70+ people. But going purely punitive seems too far as well. There's a middle ground that's ideal.
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i kinda wish we all had a penis and vagina instead of buttholes

i mean no offense to buttholes and poop or anything

Rest in Peace, Troy Davis and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and Eric Garner and Mike Brown
#15
Rehabilitation vs Punishment

Quote by necrosis1193
Wait, we do?

Why? Isn't the entire point of confining someone to a prison cell - other than removing them from society - to punish them for their actions by putting them in a small, uncomfortable environment in which there's nothing interesting or fun to do, something which giving them university level education kind of goes the exact opposite way of?


Ugh.
#16
On Bastoy prison island in Norway, the prisoners, some of whom are murderers and rapists, live in conditions that critics brand 'cushy' and 'luxurious'. Yet it has by far the lowest reoffending rate in Europe



'nuff said, America is shit
#17
The 34-year-old has been held in a purpose-built unit at Ila prison since his conviction. But yesterday the prison service revealed he will be relocated to Skien jail, south of the capital – a detention centre considered one of the most liberal in a country renowned for is lenient treatment of offenders.

Inmates at Skien, which is a conventional walled prison, live in individual cells equipped with computers, televisions, private showers and lavatories. They are also provided with generous education and training facilities

Breivik wrote a 27-page letter to Norway’s prison authorities late last year complaining that he was being forced to spend 23 hours a day alone in his cell at Ila. He said his isolation amounted to “torture”.

He also complained he had a poor view from his cell window, that he was not permitted to use a skin moisturiser and that he wasn’t allowed enough butter on his bread. “I doubt there are worse detention facilities in Norway,” he said.


Sure, you Norwegians CLAIM to be interested in rehabilitation and CLAIM to treat prisoners humanely, but then you turn around and build jails with shitty views and allow an insufficient amount of butter for toast! Quite frankly I'm disgusted that a mass-murderer should ever want for butter in a country claiming such an enlightened mentality.
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#18
Quote by sam b
'nuff said, America is shit

So what you're saying is if Breivik serves all 21 years of his sentence you'd consider him rehabilitated and be cool with him rejoining regular society?
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#19
I'd tend towards the Norwegian end of the spectrum if I was in charge of fitting out a prison.

In the US the prisons are privatised and so there will always be a movement towards low cost, sparsely furnished accommodation. With a fixed revenue there's only really one way to profit and that's to cut costs.

Remove the profit element and there's less incentive to put prisoners in the sparsest accommodation you can find. Instead, other considerations come to the forefront such as recidivism rates and whether the money put into the system generates a valuable return in terms of reducing crime.

A look at the statistics would suggest that Norway's system is more effective than the US' (although that's not the whole story).

And once you have that system in place, making exceptions for particularly heinous criminals doesn't really serve any purpose except satisfying some base need for revenge.
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#20
Quote by VanTheKraut
So what you're saying is if Breivik serves all 21 years of his sentence you'd consider him rehabilitated and be cool with him rejoining regular society?


He has to be proven sane and no harm to society, until that he will stay at a appropriate facility.
#21
Quote by VanTheKraut
So what you're saying is if Breivik serves all 21 years of his sentence you'd consider him rehabilitated and be cool with him rejoining regular society?

Correct. What's the problem?

(This is assuming he's been proven to be "rehabilitated")
#22
If someone murdered 77 kids I wouldnt want them breathing another second of my precious freedom-smelling air, much less living in a luxury condo with amenities and free university education for the next 21 years. But hey, their country, and if it works, why not?
#23
Quote by lolmnt
It's punishment, but prisons try to limit repeat prison visits by teaching inmates skills so they can gain employment after their sentence is up. This is usually in the form of education (most prisons have GED classes in the prison, and an increasing number allow inmates to pursue online degrees (some prisons have college level classes taught in jail)) or vocational training to teach a skill. The thought is that if they have something legit to fall back on when they are released, they won't return to crime.

The problem is that rehabilitation tends to be an afterthought in US jails. And most of the education prisoners receive is from other inmates in how to become better criminals. For example, a eighteen year old kid might go to jail for stealing a car when the owner leaves the keys on the seat. While imprisoned he might learn how to hotwire a car. With lack of legitimate education, and now with a criminal record (making getting a regular job more difficult, if not impossible) he'll fall back into the criminal lifestyle.

But there's definitely a balance. I don't know how indicative that is of Norway prisons, but that seems like he's living like he's JD Salinger instead of like somebody who's in prison for slaughtering 70+ people. But going purely punitive seems too far as well. There's a middle ground that's ideal.


I can agree with that in most situations, but this guy blew up a car bomb outside of the prime minister's office and went on a shooting spree, injuring over 300 people and killing 77, with the goal of starting an extreme right revolution across Europe. He's not at risk to repeat offense if he gets out because of a lack of education or a lack of skills, he's at risk of repeat offense because he's fucking insane. He needs counseling and mental help, not a college degree and a nice apartment with a treadmill and full kitchen.
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#24
Quote by Lemoninfluence
I'd tend towards the Norwegian end of the spectrum if I was in charge of fitting out a prison.

In the US the prisons are privatised and so there will always be a movement towards low cost, sparsely furnished accommodation. With a fixed revenue there's only really one way to profit and that's to cut costs.


Not quite.

The US has a prison population of 1.6 million (as of 2010). Of those, 128,195 are housed in private prisons. Or just 8%. Private prisons are beyond ******ed but they do not set the standard for the other 92% of prisons owned by local, state, and federal authorities.
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#25
UG censors the word retarded now?
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#26
First off. No, you killed 77 people. You aren't "sane" and will never not be a threat to society.


And well. Now we all know how to easily get a free education. Thanks norway.
#27
Quote by Wormholes
First off. No, you killed 77 people. You aren't "sane" and will never not be a threat to society.


Yeah, the hundreds of rehabilitated who have integrated back into society in Norway prove your point just perfectly.


Oh hang on
#28
Quote by sam b
Correct. What's the problem?

(This is assuming he's been proven to be "rehabilitated")

I would argue that the act of killing 77 people, most of whom are teenagers, is a waiver of your right to ever walk free again. So why is 21 years in prison the maximum possible sentence for killing 77 people in Norway? By my math, that's just over 3 months per victim.

Shit, I don't like the cold. But **** buying a coat, I'll just go to Norway and kill someone in December and they'll let me out in March.
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Last edited by VanTheKraut at Aug 6, 2013,
#30
Quote by sam b
Yeah, the hundreds of rehabilitated who have integrated back into society in Norway prove your point just perfectly.


Oh hang on



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#31
Quote by VanTheKraut
Not quite.

The US has a prison population of 1.6 million (as of 2010). Of those, 128,195 are housed in private prisons. Or just 8%. Private prisons are beyond ******ed but they do not set the standard for the other 92% of prisons owned by local, state, and federal authorities.

fair enough, although I would wonder if 8% is enough to put downwards pressure on publicly owned prisons. If a private prison can get away with the bare minimum, why should a publicly owned one do more. Especially as there seems to be less of an appetite for reform when compared to the appetite for punishment.

Quote by Wormholes
First off. No, you killed 77 people. You aren't "sane" and will never not be a threat to society.

He's sane in the sense that he understood what he was doing and that it was wrong to do.

Also, after 21 years he doesn't just skip out the door with everything forgotten.

And well. Now we all know how to easily get a free education. Thanks norway.


I know, the wave of massacres that have followed in his wake is evidence enough that Norway is just too soft.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#32
Quote by VanTheKraut

Shit, I don't like the cold. But **** buying a coat, I'll just go to Norway and kill someone in December and they'll let me out in March.

No they wont
#33
The system in Norway seems to work. Breivik is an anomaly in the country, so they are doing what they can with the laws they have. He is most likely going to serve a life sentence, so I don't see a problem with his situation. I don't have any sources so this is me talking out of my ass, but the low recidivism probably means people from Norway pay less to support the prison system, even with someone like Breivik living in those cells for life.

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#34
Quote by VanTheKraut



Two legally sane men, two horrendous crimes, and two very different punishments given by their respective countries legal systems. What are your thoughts on this wide difference in methods of incarceration between the US and Norway?


Look at how many people in the US are in Prison.

Now compare that to Norway.

Now look at how many people in the US who have been incarcerated end up in prison again after release.

Now look at Norway.

Sadly, US isn't Norway. but if the US stopped using ladies scented body wash and switched to Old Spice, the US could smell like Norway

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#35
Quote by VanTheKraut
I would argue that the act of killing 77 people, most of whom are teenagers, is a waiver of your right to ever walk free again. So why is 21 years in prison the maximum possible sentence for killing 77 people in Norway? By my math, that's just over 3 months per victim.

Shit, I don't like the cold. But **** buying a coat, I'll just go to Norway and kill someone in December and they'll let me out in March.

It's not just 21 years though. IIRC there's still a requirement that he is rehabilitated and considered safe to reenter society.

The 21 years thing is probably a result of a decision to remove a whole of life sentence (which was probably decided on the basis that if there's no prospect of release, there's no incentive to reform) but it won't mean that someone is guaranteed to get out after 21 years no matter what they did.

Recently the UK has been told by the EU that it can't give whole of life sentences where there's no chance of parole. That in itself doesn't stop the courts and prisons from detaining people for their entire lives, but it can't just lock someone up, throw away the key and forget about them.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#36
Quote by solo_freak
The system in Norway seems to work. Breivik is an anomaly in the country, so they are doing what they can with the laws they have. He is most likely going to serve a life sentence, so I don't see a problem with his situation. I don't have any sources so this is me talking out of my ass, but the low recidivism probably means people from Norway pay less to support the prison system, even with someone like Breivik living in those cells for life.

Breivik is an anomaly in any country. It's not as if a 77 person shooting spree is just another Tuesday in America. We're going to put Tsarnaev away forever for helping kill 4 people.
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Last edited by VanTheKraut at Aug 6, 2013,
#37
Quote by Wormholes
First off. No, you killed 77 people. You aren't "sane" and will never not be a threat to society.


And well. Now we all know how to easily get a free education. Thanks norway.


It's definitely not easy to spree kill 77 people. That's like a high score.
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#38
Quote by VanTheKraut
I would argue that the act of killing 77 people, most of whom are teenagers, is a waiver of your right to ever walk free again. So why is 21 years in prison the maximum possible sentence for killing 77 people in Norway? By my math, that's just over 3 months per victim.

He will be evaluated at the end of his sentence to see if he shall be released.
He will most likely be put back in prison (I think it's a 10 year process, then it repeats again).


Shit, I don't like the cold. But **** buying a coat, I'll just go to Norway and kill someone in December and they'll let me out in March.

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#39
Don't you miss the days when they kept you in one of these for a month



Then just hung you?
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#40
Quote by sam b
Yeah, the hundreds of rehabilitated who have integrated back into society in Norway prove your point just perfectly.


Oh hang on

I'm pretty sure Norway has not dealt with an individual such as Anders before.
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