#1
I desperately need some help with this. I've owned and set up several guitars, and none were as much of a pain in the ass as this.

**See attached pics**

Basically, the tension on the strings is off the charts. I can't tune the strings up to standard without risking breaking a string. It already snapped a brand new high E. But at the same time, the bridge is floating up as if the springs need to be tightened. That happens, even if the springs are tightened as far as they will go.

I even tried blocking the bridge temporarily, but the string tension still becomes way too high before it gets anywhere near E standard tuning. The strings are 10's by the way.

If you guys can't solve this, this will be the first guitar I've ever had to take to a music shop.
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Last edited by asixth at Aug 14, 2013,
#2
Read the sticky on how to setup a floyd. Spoiler, you either need more/new springs or need to screw the claw further into the body. Try the claw first :P I'm guessing you just switched from 9s?
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#4
Quote by DarthV
Read the sticky on how to setup a floyd. Spoiler, you either need more/new springs or need to screw the claw further into the body. Try the claw first :P I'm guessing you just switched from 9s?


I read the sticky already. But just to humour you, I tightened the springs into the body. The string tuning still couldn't reach standard tuning. And... the D string snapped. Now that one of the strings broke, the bridge is floating towards the body, but... playing with five strings for the right amount of tension isn't exactly convenient.

Just to reiterate, the main problem is that the tension on the strings is way too high, regardless of what I do to the springs. Loosening, tightening, nothing works.
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Last edited by asixth at Aug 14, 2013,
#5
The tension on the strings IF YOU'RE TUNED ACCURATELY should be no more than the tension on any other guitar for the same tuning. There's nothing a Floyd can do that will put more tension on the strings.
#6
You're trying to tune an octave or more too high. A tuner will only tell you the note you're playing, not the octave it's being played in. The frequency a string vibrates at is (for our purposes) a function of length, diameter, and tension. If you broke the D string on a set of 10's and STILL weren't up to pitch, then you simply have too much tension, and must be tuned too high, as that is the only variable we have that could be causing this issue. Block the trem and either play or find a sound clip of each open string being played on a guitar tuned to E standard, and tune your strings to match by ear. Then you can use a tuner to get them dead on.
#7
An octave too high is the only thing that makes sense to me as well.
#9
Quote by D_M_I
Your tuner won't care what octave you're in.

Try this. Hearing it should help....

I had the same thought guys. I ended up tuning the guitar to C-standard. It's not an octave too high.

This ESP Ltd Mh-50 just defies ****ing logic. The only conclusion I might draw is that it's designed for 9's, and hates anything heavier. It seems happy in C-standard. I might be able to stretch to C#-standard without breaking strings.

I understand your scepticism, that I'm likely some newb and the guitar is perfectly fine. We'll never really know. Thanks for the effort anyways.
#10
Are you really 100% sure it's not an octave too high?

Because it's an octave too high or your floyd is riding funny.
Last edited by johnnykbop at Aug 15, 2013,
#11
For future reference:

The easiest way to set up a floyd rose for a different tuning is to block it in level position, string and tune to pitch, lock, and adjust the springs until the bridge is parallel.
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#12
Quote by asixth
I had the same thought guys. I ended up tuning the guitar to C-standard. It's not an octave too high.

This ESP Ltd Mh-50 just defies ****ing logic. The only conclusion I might draw is that it's designed for 9's, and hates anything heavier. It seems happy in C-standard. I might be able to stretch to C#-standard without breaking strings.

I understand your scepticism, that I'm likely some newb and the guitar is perfectly fine. We'll never really know. Thanks for the effort anyways.

Either you are tuning higher than standard E or your tuner is not set to 440.

I play in drop C and 10-52 can just barely handle not being too flubby IMO.

I bet you if you take it to a tech, they will fix it no problem and tell you the same thing everyone else has also, you are not tuning your guitar correctly
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#13
Quote by asixth
I had the same thought guys. I ended up tuning the guitar to C-standard. It's not an octave too high.

This ESP Ltd Mh-50 just defies ****ing logic. The only conclusion I might draw is that it's designed for 9's, and hates anything heavier. It seems happy in C-standard. I might be able to stretch to C#-standard without breaking strings.

Um...you're not doing it right. You need to start off with new strings, then do what the sticky says (don't just browse it; follow it step-by-step), and make sure you're tuning correctly. I use 10-52 and tune my FR original to D standard (and had it tuned to E standard for years before that). There is absolutely no reason you should be having trouble, unless you're not doing it correctly.

I understand your scepticism, that I'm likely some newb and the guitar is perfectly fine. We'll never really know. Thanks for the effort anyways.

You know, just because you've been playing for years doesn't mean you know everything. You have 2 choices: 1) follow the advice we've all been giving and (most likely) save whatever cash the guitar store will charge you for setting up your guitar properly OR 2) go get a guitar store to fix it and be $100 short. Your choice.

However, it would be to your benefit to learn how to properly set up a FR-equipped guitar. Are you gonna spend $100 every time you need to change strings (because you still wouldn't know how to properly set it up and have to have a tech do)? I hope not. Learn how to do it properly now, man.
#14
I'm sure it's not an octave higher. I've compared it to recorded samples. I even have a perfectly set up, perfectly tuned Fender MIJ Strat and confirmed, this ESP Ltd is tuned lower and the strings are very tight by comparison. I know the difference between a rumbling low A on a 7-string and the A above it. This guitar is closer to the 7-string by ear. Yet the strings are too tight to reach E standard.
#15
My Floyd Rose is cursed.


So I'm thinking an exorcism!

So far, I can't think of any explanation how a Floyd could be increasing tension on a string tuned to the proper note.
#16
Quote by asixth
I'm sure it's not an octave higher. I've compared it to recorded samples. I even have a perfectly set up, perfectly tuned Fender MIJ Strat and confirmed, this ESP Ltd is tuned lower and the strings are very tight by comparison. I know the difference between a rumbling low A on a 7-string and the A above it. This guitar is closer to the 7-string by ear. Yet the strings are too tight to reach E standard.

Here's a thought. How short did you cut the strings? I'm assuming you used something to cut them so you don't have extra length. Are you sure you didn't cut them too short?
#17
Quote by asixth
I'm sure it's not an octave higher. I've compared it to recorded samples. I even have a perfectly set up, perfectly tuned Fender MIJ Strat and confirmed, this ESP Ltd is tuned lower and the strings are very tight by comparison. I know the difference between a rumbling low A on a 7-string and the A above it. This guitar is closer to the 7-string by ear. Yet the strings are too tight to reach E standard.


Like I said in my first post, the strings frequency ( note ) is primarily a function of its length, diameter, and tension. We already know from existing data and many, many field trials that:

1) A .026" diameter "D" string with a steel core and nickel plated steel winding that is found in a set of standard "10's" ( made by D'Addario, in this case ) will have a tension of approximately 18.38 lbs when tuned to the proper pitch.

2) These strings do not reach their yield strength ( point of failure ) at or below that tension.

3) The string tension required to reached a specific frequency on a string of given length, diameter, and composition does change appreciably if the same environmental conditions are present.

4) String law makes no allowance for the method by which the strings are anchored, only that there are 2 nodes which serve to define the length of the vibrating mass.

Given these facts, we have but one conclusion: you're doing it wrong. Read the guide, try again. Physics does not cease to apply simply because there is a Floyd Rose involved, or because you are the one doing the work.

Another thing: it's generally bad form to join a forum, ask your first question on said forum, and then argue with the perfectly logical answers that you're given.

Oh, and welcome to UG
#19
Quote by asixth
I'm sure it's not an octave higher. I've compared it to recorded samples. I even have a perfectly set up, perfectly tuned Fender MIJ Strat and confirmed, this ESP Ltd is tuned lower and the strings are very tight by comparison. I know the difference between a rumbling low A on a 7-string and the A above it. This guitar is closer to the 7-string by ear. Yet the strings are too tight to reach E standard.

Then your floyd is riding funny and you don't know how to set it up properly.
#20
Quote by 4FunandProphet
Physics does not cease to apply simply because there is a Floyd Rose involved, or because you are the one doing the work.


He though he was buying a simple guitar. But what he bought, was in fact a one way trip into madness. Do not attempt to adjust your set. We control the horizontal, and the vertical...
#21
Quote by asixth
He though he was buying a simple guitar. But what he bought, was in fact a one way trip into madness. Do not attempt to adjust your set. We control the horizontal, and the vertical...



I think I know where you bought that guitar! Little shop on the edge of town called The Limit? Run by a slick haired guy named Rod? Talked with a funny accent? Boy, you are screwed!
#22
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Here's a thought. How short did you cut the strings? I'm assuming you used something to cut them so you don't have extra length. Are you sure you didn't cut them too short?

This sounds like it could be the problem.

Though I'm not sure if TS is going to come back and answer our posts any more.
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#23
Quote by MaggaraMarine
This sounds like it could be the problem.

Though I'm not sure if TS is going to come back and answer our posts any more.

This possibility also occurred to me. First, I stringed it with the typical amount of slack you need (I put my fist on the 12th fret, string over fist). That resulted in about 2 to 3 winds around the tuning post.

Problem still existed, so I gave even more slack than that, resulting in.... a slightly excessive amount of string around the tuning post. The string tension did decrease a little, but not enough to solve the issue.

I think, maybe, a lot of you guys are using original floyd rose guitars, or a reasonably high end replica. This ESP Ltd Mh-50 is kinda cheap by comparison, so I'm not sure the licensed Floyd would be as reliable. I have noticed, the springs seem weak compared to my Fender Strat's springs.
Last edited by asixth at Aug 17, 2013,
#24
That's reaaaally strange then, I have an MH-100qm, bar the Maple veneers and the colour it's exactly the same guitar as yours (yes, same Floyd Rose Special), neck is straight, have only 3 springs on the back and bridge parallel to the body (check pics), no tight strings or anything and been re-stringing it with the method on the FR setup sticky, only difference is that I kept 9s on there, but a jump to 10s shouldn't do such harm to it, try getting another spring on there and see what happens.

BTW looking at your pics it seems like you could tighten your springs a bit more, i've done that with mine and it can go further than what my pic shows and when doing that the bridge absolutely goes down, way down.

But is really strange have to say o_O, i've never had any issues with the bridge (or anything at all on the guitar for that matter) since I got it on 2011 :X.

Good luck on setting it up, yeah it's a pain at first but very rewarding at the end, patience is the key .

EDIT: yeah yellow foam is to keep springs from ringing and causing extra reverb xD.

EDIT 2: further looking at your pics, have you tried raising the action from the bridge? seems like it's sitting pretty low, remember to take out strings and springs before doing it.
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Last edited by ADOLF1612 at Aug 17, 2013,
#25
Block the Floyd rose bridge and re string it. problem fixed
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#26
Quote by asixth
T
I think, maybe, a lot of you guys are using original floyd rose guitars, or a reasonably high end replica. This ESP Ltd Mh-50 is kinda cheap by comparison, so I'm not sure the licensed Floyd would be as reliable. I have noticed, the springs seem weak compared to my Fender Strat's springs.


The only real difference between a good Floyd and a cheap one is the materials used, which are generally much harder and more durable for the more expensive ones. It just means that the cheap ones are generally more prone to wearing out and becoming a bit less stable over time, as well as being a bit less responsive. There's no reason that they should cause different string tension to a good one.

As has been said, your string's tuning is a function of various things, but the major ones that matter to guitarists for tuning up are the gauge, length (between nut and bridge) and the tension. It's also been said that just because it's a Floyd it doesn't invalidate the laws of physics, and that's very true.

You say you're using 10's, which are fairly standard and shouldn't be a problem.

So this puzzle effectively becomes Tuning = f(length, tension)

Tuning is a function of length and tension.

There are some possibilities here. As the others have suggested, if you're tuning too high then more tension would be needed and that can explain things. If we accept your tuning is at the correct pitch, then only length and tension can be adjusted. All I can think is that during all of this the Floyd isn't sitting level, and that could easily be messing with your tension. Your first picture shows the floyd tipping forwards. Is this the way it looks when you have it in tune? For the perfect setup it should be level and parallel to the body.

If the springs aren't tight enough you could find yourself in a vicious circle of tuning. Tuning up to pitch puts more tension in your strings than you have in the springs, so the Floyd tilts forwards. This has the effect of shortening the string length slightly. In normal circumstances, this would be an increase in pitch, but that's when you're taking a shorter amount of the string - e.g. playing at a higher fret. In this case, you've got the same amount of string but you're allowing it to shorten elastically back to closer to its normal state. (I'm going to make a point of not going into Young's Modulus here!) It's a bit like stretching an elastic band, then allowing it to retract a bit. You've got less tension in it than you did when it was stretched.

This reduces the tension in the string (note how they go floppy when you divebomb), and this is the major factor which causes pitch to drop overall. If the pitch drops, you might tune up again to get it back to correct pitch, which would cause the Floyd to tilt forwards even more, which would cause the pitch to drop, etc.

Each time, the floyd tilts forwards, stretching the springs, and it stops at the point where the springs are stretched out enough to match the string tension. If you tune up some more, it tilts some more. I don't know if that's your problem, but it's a thought. Especially since you say that the springs seem weak, which might explain why they've not got enough tension to hold the bridge level. If this is the case, and you say you've tightened the springs as far as they'll go without success, then you may need to add more springs or swap them out for stiffer ones.
#27
You probably should have mentioned the weak springs before.

I have had to replace springs on my FR before. They're fairly cheap and could actually be your entire problem. Most guitar shops should carry springs fairly standard, as most types of floating bridge use the same type of spring, iirc.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Aug 19, 2013,
#28
I'll give the guy the benefit of a doubt and assume his ability to HEAR can discern whether or not he's tuning up an octave...

You mentioned increasing the spring tension...remove the springs and see what happens? vOv Unless the Floyd is like, inches too long, the strings won't have extra tension and still be in tune. Perhaps it's a baritone guitar? Do they feel extra tight when you play them? The saddles might just be letting the strings slip or something
#29
I have been using floyds for 15 years. I have seen a problem similar to this before. I'm going to assume that all the strings were removed and replaced with a different gauge without ever having a proper setup. One question I have is how are you tuning the guitar? You cannot start with the fat string and tune the guitar, like you learned on any other guitar, even properly setup. Remember if you tune one string higher, you're tuning all the other strings lower at the same time. If you keep cranking the strings to pitch one at a time you will never get there and the bridge will be just like yours. Small adjustments and skip strings from low to high. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
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