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#4
I don't see why this is a bad thing when the spouses who will get cut off from UPS can get it from their own employers. Am I missing something?
Quote by Jackal58
Nothing is stranger than being anonymous.
#6
I've been hearing a lot of this around town recently. Nobody is hiring, and some companies are even laying people off because they can't afford to keep them with Obamacare. This whole thing is just one big cluster****. I'm all for healthcare reform, but this isn't the way to do it. It seems to be causing more problems than it fixes, and that's why more and more on the left side of the isle are slowly backing away from it.

What we need to do is allow companies to compete on a free-market basis. Let competition drive the prices down. All that Obamacare is really doing is just adding more .gov regulations and restricting competition. The opposite of what we should be doing.

Remember - this is basically the same thing that Newt Gingrich tried to pass in the 90's. It's just a shoe-in for the insurance companies, nothing more.
Quote by strat0blaster
This is terrible advice. Even worse than the useless dry, sarcastic comment I made.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm too old for the Jim Morrison look now. When I was gigging I had a fine arse.
Last edited by stonyman65 at Aug 22, 2013,
#7
Quote by kikaykitko
I don't see why this is a bad thing when the spouses who will get cut off from UPS can get it from their own employers. Am I missing something?


That's all assuming they can even get it from their own employers to begin with, also assuming that they are employed. To be eligible for spousal benefits most companies under Obamacare require you to sign an affidavit the says you can't get health care elsewhere. Other than that you are shit outta luck.
Quote by strat0blaster
This is terrible advice. Even worse than the useless dry, sarcastic comment I made.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm too old for the Jim Morrison look now. When I was gigging I had a fine arse.
#8
Obamacare: making the middle class pay for everyone else's welfare since 2008.
¯\_()_/¯
#9
It's not going to work. Employers only have to provide it to full time employees so they are cutting everyone to part time and hiring more people. Also, my gf just got a $30,000 bill for having her gallbladder removed.
#10
Quote by CaptainCanti
Obamacare: making the middle class pay for everyone else's welfare since 2008.

+1
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#11
Obamacare? More like Obama,WHO cares!!
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#12
Aren't they supposed to vote on whether or not to defund Obamacare soon?
Quote by Overlord
It's not hard to be nice, but it's nice to be hard
#14
Quote by stonyman65
I've been hearing a lot of this around town recently. Nobody is hiring, and some companies are even laying people off because they can't afford to keep them with Obamacare. This whole thing is just one big cluster****. I'm all for healthcare reform, but this isn't the way to do it. It seems to be causing more problems than it fixes, and that's why more and more on the left side of the isle are slowly backing away from it.

What we need to do is allow companies to compete on a free-market basis. Let competition drive the prices down. All that Obamacare is really doing is just adding more .gov regulations and restricting competition. The opposite of what we should be doing.

Remember - this is basically the same thing that Newt Gingrich tried to pass in the 90's. It's just a shoe-in for the insurance companies, nothing more.

It's a cluster**** because there's a pathological fear of anything that's collectivised and so a proper public healthcare option was shot down as soon as it was suggested, despite the fact that it's the best option in terms of ensuring wide coverage and keeping costs down.

free market doesn't work for healthcare, you can't shop around for the cheapest kidney transplant or physical therapy for your disabled newborn. And free market insurers can pick and choose those customers that they feel are low risk. So all that a true free market achieves is to put the power completely in the hands of insurers.

Insurers that can never have the pool of money that a public option has. It merely operates as a health insurance provider without a profit motive. There will be those who don't use as much as they contribute, and there will be those who use more than they contribute, but that's no different to how insurance companies operate. And without the profit motive it's purchasing power is maximised, as is coverage.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#15
Quote by stonyman65
That's all assuming they can even get it from their own employers to begin with, also assuming that they are employed. To be eligible for spousal benefits most companies under Obamacare require you to sign an affidavit the says you can't get health care elsewhere. Other than that you are shit outta luck.


The company has told its white-collar workers that 15,000 of their spouses who are eligible for health care benefits through their own jobs will be taken off the UPS plan next year


On Wednesday, the University of Virginia also announced that, starting next year, employees' spouses who have access to health care coverage through their own employers will no longer be eligible for coverage under the university's plan.


Did you miss something?

Kinda sucks but I don't really see these particular instances as a major problem.
Last edited by CodeMonk at Aug 22, 2013,
#17
Obamacare is the reason there are so many part time jobs and so few full time ones. If you get less than 32 hours per week, the employer doesn't have to give you health insurance. Which is why most of the jobs being created every month are part time low wage jobs. And it also costs a shit ton of money; money that the government doesn't have.

I'm all for a better healthcare system, but this simply isn't the way to do it. I'd rather have a full time 40 hour per week high paying job with benefits, with no Obamacare.
Quote by progdude93
my fetish is dudes with dicks small enough to pee on their own sacks.
Last edited by Jostry at Aug 22, 2013,
#18
Quote by Trowzaa
Just get universal healthcare and be happy.

I don't know much about "Obamacare", but yeah just do this.

I honestly can't conceive of what taxes are supposed to be for if they don't cover something as basic and universal as healthcare.
#19
I love how everyone in the entire western world is telling the Americans how awesome it is to have universal healthcare, and how the Americans are all like "omg universal healthcare is the worst thing ever".
You who build these altars now

To sacrifice these children
You must not do it anymore
#20
Quote by the bartender
I love how everyone in the entire western world is telling the Americans how awesome it is to have universal healthcare, and how the Americans are all like "omg universal healthcare is the worst thing ever".

+1
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#21
Quote by Trowzaa
Just get universal healthcare and be happy.

Yes, this is an easy solution. Or is it? No, it's not. Not only because many people don't want universal healthcare (right or wrong, that's the truth), and we're supposed to be a democratic society in the US. But also because the sheer cost of putting universal healthcare in place, which would include things like bullying the all the companies that provide any sort of healthcare product (be it drugs, fake hips, or hospital equipment [see the video UrAllSh1t posted]), would be huge. Since our debt is already so damn high, that's currently unfeasible.

You guys in the UK act like it'd be easy to just slap in universal healthcare, forgetting apparently that your government set up the NHS after WWII. The US, by comparison, has had the majority of its citizens spending their money on private healthcare for 6 decades at this point. It won't be an easy fix, at all.
#22
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Yes, this is an easy solution. Or is it? No, it's not. Not only because many people don't want universal healthcare (right or wrong, that's the truth), and we're supposed to be a democratic society in the US. But also because the sheer cost of putting universal healthcare in place, which would include things like bullying the all the companies that provide any sort of healthcare product (be it drugs, fake hips, or hospital equipment [see the video UrAllSh1t posted]), would be huge. Since our debt is already so damn high, that's currently unfeasible.

You guys in the UK act like it'd be easy to just slap in universal healthcare, forgetting apparently that your government set up the NHS after WWII. The US, by comparison, has had the majority of its citizens spending their money on private healthcare for 6 decades at this point. It won't be an easy fix, at all.

yeah we set up the NHS after WW2 when we were flush with cash and had nothing else to do.

I can see how it'd be difficult for you to manage.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#24
Quote by the bartender
I love how everyone in the entire western world is telling the Americans how awesome it is to have universal healthcare, and how the Americans are all like "omg universal healthcare is the worst thing ever".

What I find with a lot of people in America is they have little foresight. Changing our healthcare system into a universal one will take a lot of change and probably development which can be scary. Americans don't want to make the temporary sacrifice/investment.

Same reason our whole power grid still sucks balls.
Quote by Jackal58
Nothing is stranger than being anonymous.
#25
Quote by Lemoninfluence
yeah we set up the NHS after WW2 when we were flush with cash and had nothing else to do.

I can see how it'd be difficult for you to manage.

Yes, and I don't think you had large portions of your population that were opposed to the NHS at the time.

Also, let's be honest; there wasn't a healthcare insurance industry in '46 like there is today. There were predecessors to healthcare insurance, but not actual healthcare insurance companies.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_insurance#Health_insurance_in_the_United_States


Quote by kikaykitko
What I find with a lot of people in America is they have little foresight. Changing our healthcare system into a universal one will take a lot of change and probably development which can be scary. Americans don't want to make the temporary sacrifice/investment.

This is probably the biggest reason why we don't have an American version of the NHS.

Same reason our whole power grid still sucks balls.

Basically.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Aug 22, 2013,
#26
'America' will continue to be a punchline until you have a proper national health service.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#27
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Yes, and I don't think you had large portions of your population that were opposed to the NHS at the time.

Also, let's be honest; there wasn't a healthcare industry in '46 like there is today.

not on the scale there is today, but there was still health insurance like services via Friendly societies. Before that you had to pay for your medical care.

And it's not like the insurance industry would go away. We still have the option to go private if we wish to.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#31
Quote by stonyman65


What we need to do is allow companies to compete on a free-market basis. Let competition drive the prices down. All that Obamacare is really doing is just adding more .gov regulations and restricting competition. The opposite of what we should be doing.

You're the worst type of capitalist, the capitalists who don't understand capitalism.

Markets only work efficiently under certain circumstances. Healthcare is one of those circumstances where there are a cluster**** of factors that make markets go absolutely haywire. How do you propose to fix the problem of massive information asymmetry in healthcare? How do you propose to solve the externalities problems in healthcare? How do you solve the issue of inelastic demand?

These are problems that cannot be fixed by "free markets" because they are issues inherent in the mechanism of the market. These are the problems that exist before we get to the moral issues around allowing people to die.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#32
Quote by Lemoninfluence
not on the scale there is today, but there was still health insurance like services via Friendly societies. Before that you had to pay for your medical care.

And we had similar things in the US, such as BlueCross.

And it's not like the insurance industry would go away. We still have the option to go private if we wish to.

I understand that.

I'm just saying that, without majority support for universal healthcare, the US isn't passing a bill that would start the implementation of universal healthcare anytime soon. Obamacare is the closest we've come to universal healthcare, and it's so invasive that many people outright refuse to support it. (There's a reason they're voting on whether to defund it.)
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Aug 22, 2013,
#34
Quote by Ur all $h1t
You're the worst type of capitalist, the capitalists who don't understand capitalism.

Markets only work efficiently under certain circumstances. Healthcare is one of those circumstances where there are a cluster**** of factors that make markets go absolutely haywire. How do you propose to fix the problem of massive information asymmetry in healthcare? How do you propose to solve the externalities problems in healthcare? How do you solve the issue of inelastic demand?

These are problems that cannot be fixed by "free markets" because they are issues inherent in the mechanism of the market. These are the problems that exist before we get to the moral issues around allowing people to die.


1. Regulate pricing for high-risk insurers, ensure that both parties understand the circumstances.
2. Not quite sure
3. We need to keep prices down as much as possible. Stop letting the corporations go insane and overcharge for everything.
Quote by strat0blaster
This is terrible advice. Even worse than the useless dry, sarcastic comment I made.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm too old for the Jim Morrison look now. When I was gigging I had a fine arse.
#35
Quote by stonyman65
1. Regulate pricing for high-risk insurers, ensure that both parties understand the circumstances.
2. Not quite sure
3. We need to keep prices down as much as possible. Stop letting the corporations go insane and overcharge for everything.

So your suggestions to address the flaws of the free market is 'regulation'?

I thought that's what was causing the issue in the first place. I thought a free market was the solution.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#36
Quote by Lemoninfluence
So your suggestions to address the flaws of the free market is 'regulation'?

I thought that's what was causing the issue in the first place.


The big issue that is causing all the problems is all of the crazy cooperation bullshit, and the laws put in place to protect them.

There's a difference between a free market and just driving price up just because you can. So I guess in this case minor regulation to stop this would be a good thing. That's a whole lot different than the .gov folks driving up prices and forcing people to get insurance that they don't want or can't afford.
Quote by strat0blaster
This is terrible advice. Even worse than the useless dry, sarcastic comment I made.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm too old for the Jim Morrison look now. When I was gigging I had a fine arse.
#37
Quote by stonyman65
1. Regulate pricing for high-risk insurers, ensure that both parties understand the circumstances.
That's not the only information asymmetry, a larger one is that healthcare providers, pharmaceutical companies, and drug sellers have decades of medical training and serious knowledge, the average joe has none of that. You cannot shop around effectively in a market where the seller knows everything about a product and service and you not only do not know but realistically can't hope to know much of the relevant information.

2. Not quite sure


Protip: the only realistic solution is universal healthcare.


3. We need to keep prices down as much as possible. Stop letting the corporations go insane and overcharge for everything
How does this solve inelastic demand? Furthermore, how can this market be said to be free in any sense of the word?
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#38
Quote by stonyman65
The big issue that is causing all the problems is all of the crazy cooperation bullshit, and the laws put in place to protect them.

There's a difference between a free market and just driving price up just because you can. So I guess in this case minor regulation to stop this would be a good thing. That's a whole lot different than the .gov folks driving up prices and forcing people to get insurance that they don't want or can't afford.

except a free market requires the ability to set any price you want.

It's not free otherwise.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#40
Quote by Lemoninfluence
except a free market requires the ability to set any price you want.

It's not free otherwise.


You should watch the video I posted earlier. It's just a better explanation of what I'm trying to say here. It's pretty complicated to explain.
Quote by strat0blaster
This is terrible advice. Even worse than the useless dry, sarcastic comment I made.

Quote by Cathbard
I'm too old for the Jim Morrison look now. When I was gigging I had a fine arse.
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