Page 1 of 3
#1
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/david_draiman_to_roger_waters_hate_disguised_as_art_doesnt_work.html

I know this is on the home page but I wanted to know what the Pit thought of this, as I'm not a fan of the column community.

Do you think he is overreacting? He is of Jewish decent though he isn't religious. Or do you think he has a point?
Quote by beadhangingOne
What happened to Snake?

Snake?

Snake?

SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE?!


Quote by TunerAddict
you can take my mouse and keyboard from my cold, slightly orange from cheetos, dead fingers


Quote by Baby Joel
Isis is amazing
#2
He's completely in the right. Sucks to be on the pig next to bloody nazis. The david star is not a sign of Israel, that's the Israeli flag.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
Last edited by Neo Evil11 at Aug 26, 2013,
#3
tried to care and failed
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#5
Quote by Neo Evil11
He's completely in the right. Sucks to be on the pig next to bloody nazis. The david star is not a sign of Israel, that's the Israeli flag.

This is the Israeli flag. Note how it has the Star of David on it.

I mean, Draiman's right in theory, but the Star of David is associated with both the Israeli flag and Judaism. So, in practice, he ends up looking kind of silly.

Quote by whywefight
roger waters can do whatever the **** he wants and i won't be offended


david draiman has no credibility about anything and he never has

How does Waters have any credibility about anything? I mean, you're bashing Draiman, but you don't really say why Waters has more credibility.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Aug 26, 2013,
#6
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
This is the Israeli flag. Note how it has the Star of David on it.

I mean, Draiman's right in theory, but the Star of David is associated with both the Israeli flag and Judaism. So, in practice, he ends up looking kind of silly.

Affixing anything to a machete means you are making cutting criticism of the Angolan government.
#7
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
This is the Israeli flag. Note how it has the Star of David on it.

I mean, Draiman's right in theory, but the Star of David is associated with both the Israeli flag and Judaism. So, in practice, he ends up looking kind of silly.

Yes, it's ON the flag, it isn't THE bloody sign. Had he chosen the flag with the david star, instead of just the star, there would have been nothing wrong.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#8
Quote by Neo Evil11
Yes, it's ON the flag, it isn't THE bloody sign. Had he chosen the flag with the david star, instead of just the star, there would have been nothing wrong.

Why? He's not using it to denote that he dislikes Jews. I disagree with Waters on his entire stance on Israel. However, he does have the freedom to use that symbol. Note that he also puts the cross, the Islamic "moon" symbol, and other symbols on the pig. Why is no one complaining about? Imho, if we're going to complain about one religious symbol on the pig, then we should say he should take all religious symbols off the pig.
#9
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
How does Waters have any credibility about anything? I mean, you're bashing Draiman, but you don't really say why Waters has more credibility.


but waters not having credibility is part of the reason why i don't give a **** what he does with his flying pig
#10
Quote by Neo Evil11
Had he chosen the flag with the david star, instead of just the star, there would have been nothing wrong.


And there still isn't anything wrong. Religious zealots shouldn't get extra legal, or otherwise, protection just cause they are religious.

If, here in the USofA, tax exemption were taken away from churches, then there would be far less churches. Not cause God has been dis-proven, but because the jig would be up and pastors, preachers, Imams, etc would have to work for a living.
#11
Quote by SomeBlueKind
And there still isn't anything wrong. Religious zealots shouldn't get extra legal, or otherwise, protection just cause they are religious.

If, here in the USofA, tax exemption were taken away from churches, then there would be far less churches. Not cause God has been dis-proven, but because the jig would be up and pastors, preachers, Imams, etc would have to work for a living.

To be fair I think a number of them would close because it'd be impossible financially to stay open and provide any meaningful service
#12
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Why? He's not using it to denote that he dislikes Jews. I disagree with Waters on his entire stance on Israel. However, he does have the freedom to use that symbol. Note that he also puts the cross, the Islamic "moon" symbol, and other symbols on the pig. Why is no one complaining about? Imho, if we're going to complain about one religious symbol on the pig, then we should say he should take all religious symbols off the pig.

The other religious symbols aren't on the pig. They are used throughout the show, but not on the pig. The david star is more associated with the Jews, than with the state.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#13
Quote by whywefight
but waters not having credibility is part of the reason why i don't give a **** what he does with his flying pig

Then why do you care what people say about the symbols on his flying pig?

Quote by SomeBlueKind
If, here in the USofA, tax exemption were taken away from churches, then there would be far less churches. Not cause God has been dis-proven, but because the jig would be up and pastors, preachers, Imams, etc would have to work for a living.

Um...those types of religious leaders do work for a living. They are generally paid to write sermons, provide counseling, work with the church council (or whatever the equivalent thing is), and so on. They don't get paid much, but they don't sit around being lazy all week either.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Aug 26, 2013,
#15
Quote by SomeBlueKind
And there still isn't anything wrong. Religious zealots shouldn't get extra legal, or otherwise, protection just cause they are religious.

If, here in the USofA, tax exemption were taken away from churches, then there would be far less churches. Not cause God has been dis-proven, but because the jig would be up and pastors, preachers, Imams, etc would have to work for a living.

Draiman said nothing of legally attacking Waters, he was just saying that the message he got from Waters is offensive and condemnable.
Quote by beadhangingOne
What happened to Snake?

Snake?

Snake?

SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE?!


Quote by TunerAddict
you can take my mouse and keyboard from my cold, slightly orange from cheetos, dead fingers


Quote by Baby Joel
Isis is amazing
#16
If Roger Waters has the right to put a religious symbol on a pig (because that's what it is at the end of the day) to show his dislike for something, then everyone has the right to get pissed off by it. Draiman is takingoffence to what it actually is, not what Waters says he was trying to imply. While the Israeli flag does have the Star of David on it, the Star is not the flag itself. It's a symbol for all Jews, and not all Jews want anything to do with Israel and it's policies, actions etc.
#17
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Then why do you care what people say about the symbols on his flying pig?


i give negative cares if the person saying it is david draiman
#18
Quote by Neo Evil11
The other religious symbols aren't on the pig. They are used throughout the show, but not on the pig. The david star is more associated with the Jews, than with the state.

Actually, they are. Here's a pic showing the Islamic symbol on the pig.


Quote by whywefight
i give negative cares if the person saying it is david draiman
Then it's simply because it's Draiman? Well, that's kind of silly.
#19
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Actually, they are. Here's a pic showing the Islamic symbol on the pig.

Then why does he say they aren't?
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#21
I hate David Draiman.

The best thing he's ever done is the Stone Cold Steve Austin theme, and that was only a variation on something that was already written (the original SCSA theme).
Quote by neidnarb11890
the chinese take-out place my family always ordered from gave you chopsticks, so as a kid it was fun to try & eat with chopsticks
now i just use a fork, 'cuz nothing is fun anymore & i just want to shovel food into my mouth to fill the void
#22
Quote by whywefight
i give negative cares if the person saying it is david draiman


Care to qualify that statement? "Just because" is not an appropriate answer.
#23
Quote by eatfresh1736
Care to qualify that statement? "Just because" is not an appropriate answer.


how is it not an appropriate answer? it's probably the most used answer there ever was.
#24
Quote by Neo Evil11
Then why does he say they aren't?

It doesn't really matter if Draiman says they aren't.

I highly doubt he's been to every Roger Waters "The Wall Live" show. From the pictures I saw just looking on Google Images, the pig seems to have different symbols -- both religious and non-religious in nature -- at different times. (There's various pictures where it has so many symbols that you can barely see the pig itself.) I just think it's highly hypocritical to say, "He can't have this symbol" without saying he can't have other religious symbols.
#25
It really sucks that Israel exists like it does in the first place.


It REALLY sucks that our country has this undying obligation to protect them.


What a plague.
#26
Quote by crazysam23_Atax

Um...those types of religious leaders do work for a living. They are generally paid to write sermons, provide counseling, work with the church council (or whatever the equivalent thing is), and so on. They don't get paid much, but they don't sit around being lazy all week either.


So by that rationale, the guy holding the sign asking for money to buy food (read: drugs) because the methadone clinic ran out of his fix, is also working? I mean, he certainly was sweating more than a dollar bill on the floor at a Bar Mitzvah.
#27
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Actually, they are. Here's a pic showing the Islamic symbol on the pig.


You actually believe that?
#28
Quote by SomeBlueKind
So by that rationale, the guy holding the sign asking for money to buy food (read: drugs) because the methadone clinic ran out of his fix, is also working? I mean, he certainly was sweating more than a dollar bill on the floor at a Bar Mitzvah.

How about you go watch what a pastor or Rabbi or Imam does for a week and then come back?
#29
Well, the elitist world views in Judaism play a crucial role in Israel's policy making so I wouldn't say it's unjustified to mock the symbol of Judaism as well as the flag of Israel. They kind of go hand in hand. But I understand Draiman's sentiment, a lot of jews take distance from the agressions of Israel, even though they are religious.
#31
Quote by willT08
Affixing anything to a machete means you are making cutting criticism of the Angolan government.

Potentially. Symbolism bro. Roger Waters has spoken against some of the Israeli government's policies in the past but has also used pseudo-nazi imagery in heavily ironic contexts. It all makes sense if you look past initial knee-jerk reactions.

par example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ysgG3zNUOg
BOOM-SHAKALAKALAKA-BOOM-SHAKALAKUNGA
#32
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
How about you go watch what a pastor or Rabbi or Imam does for a week and then come back?


I'd sooner drive a wood screw through my erect penis than in any way add dignity and merit to religious propagandists.
#33
Quote by Deliriumbassist
I thought the Islamic symbol was suspiciously well defined in comparison to the rest of the photo.

Probably, but my main point was that he does use lots of other symbols -- both religious and non-religious -- on the pig. (The picture was mostly a bad joke for my amusement.) Talk to people who have been there, man.

Quote by SomeBlueKind
I'd sooner drive a wood screw through my erect penis than in any way add dignity and merit to religious propagandists.

Mmmm...then I'll take your "knowledge" of what religious leaders of that nature do for a living with a very large grain of salt.
#34
Quote by crazysam23_Atax

Mmmm...then I'll take your "knowledge" of what religious leaders of that nature do for a living with a very large grain of salt.


My knowledge comes from the realization that for prophesy/revelation to be divinely and sagaciously inspired, it must be infallible. Any response to the contrary is a lie. Hence, religion is untrue and is the creation of man.

No amount of good derived from eugenics makes it acceptable. Why, oh why, is religion not held to a similar standard.
#35
Waters has always been active politically. I'm not surprised that he's done this. I'd say it was a publicity stunt, but The Wall tour is (still) really huge, even without media controversy.

I've never liked him though, as a Floyd fan.

#2good4waters
#gay4gilmour
Quote by Trowzaa
I wish I was American.

~ A Rolling Potato Gathers No Moss ~
#36
Quote by SomeBlueKind
My knowledge comes from the realization that for prophesy/revelation to be divinely and sagaciously inspired, it must be infallible. Any response to the contrary is a lie. Hence, religion is untrue and is the creation of man.

No amount of good derived from eugenics makes it acceptable. Why, oh why, is religion not held to a similar standard.

I'm not sure how any of that actually tells you what pastors, rabbis, imams, etc. do all day. But, hey, if you want to continue this Dawkins-esque preaching, go ahead.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Aug 26, 2013,
#37
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Probably, but my main point was that he does use lots of other symbols -- both religious and non-religious -- on the pig. (The picture was mostly a bad joke for my amusement.) Talk to people who have been there, man.


I don't think you understand what kind of shitstorm would occur if Waters put the star and crescent on the side of a pig, even though it appears on several flags.

You would also see this forum attacking him, rather than defending him.
#38
Quote by Rossenrot
I don't think you understand what kind of shitstorm would occur if Waters put the star and crescent on the side of a pig, even though it appears on several flags.

You would also see this forum attacking him, rather than defending him.

Assuming you're right (and people who have been to his shows have said that he has put the Star and Crescent on the side of the pig, but whatever), why exactly is it ok to put the Star of David on the side of the pig? If you're going to argue that it would be wrong to put the Islamic symbol on the pig, why is it ok to put the Jewish symbol there?

This is what I don't understand at all. Everyone is justifying putting the Star of David on the pig. Yet, it'd be offensive to put the Star and Crescent up there? What?!
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Aug 26, 2013,
#39
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I'm sure how any of that actually tells you what pastors, rabbis, imams, etc. do all day. But, hey, if you want to continue this Dawkins-esque preaching, go ahead.


The advancement of, and profiteering from, lies. Think that rather tersely sums it up.
#40
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Assuming you're right (and people who have been to his shows have said that he has put the Star and Crescent on the side of the pig, but whatever), why exactly is it ok to put the Star of David on the side of the pig? If you're going to argue that it would be wrong to put the Islamic symbol on the pig, why is it ok to put the Jewish symbol there?

This is what I don't understand at all. Everyone is justifying putting the Star of David on the pig. Yet, it'd be offensive to put the Star and Crescent up there? What?!


You've got me wrong. It's a stupid idea. I'm not going to defend his decision to be an idiot. It would be equally as dumb to put the star and crescent on the pig.

#gay4gilmore
Page 1 of 3