#1
Hi guys,

I have an older Ibanez, with a Gibson "moustache" headstock, and I776158 is impressed on the back of the headstock. I believe this is a true "lawsuit" guitar. It is natural, has a set neck, and plays great. It is an Ibanez 2451 NT. See at s93105080 onlinehome us / Ibanez-Catalogs 1976-7.

One web page, ibanezrules, with serial no. an impression rather than sticker or plate, tells me the following:

I = 9th month, september, 77 = year, 6158 = ordinal number by unit made.

Another cool 'dating' website, guitardaterproject org , indicates July 1977, but they seem to ignore the fact that this serial no. is impressed rather than a sticker or plate.

Anyway, if this is true, the implications are interesting:

Apparently there has been somewhat of a controversy, even with speculation of Conspiracy (!), over when "lawsuit" guitars were built with Gibson "features". One expert, (I guess... anyway, he knows more than I do) says definitively that absolutely no guitars with the Gibson moustache were built after - and, implies that none were built close to - the date that Gibson filed the lawsuit against Ibanez, June 28, 1977.

Well, if I am interpreting the serial no. correctly, my guitar was built in 1977 in September, certainly after the lawsuit filing date. My guitar proves that Ibanez did indeed build Gibson "like" guitars after the filing date! LOL! It's just esoteric trivia and doesn't matter much. However, I am thinking that if this is true, my guitar, being one of the few that could be considered evidence, may be worth an extra 3 dollars, or so!

All true, but, more seriously, any idea of what this guitar would be worth?

Thanks,
Aurelius Schmosephi, aurelius8@hotmail.com

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Last edited by aurel74 at Sep 21, 2013,
#2
sorry dude but while a nice looking guitar it is clearly not a lawsuit guitar. the lawsuit guitars were exact copies of Gibson guitars right down to the headstock. they were also as mentioned made prior to 77. by the time the whole thing had come to light to the public Ibanez had already changed the headstock design and started to make guitars that weren't direct copies (like your guitar). can't tell if yours is a bolt on or setneck which would effect the value.
#3
Thanks for the response.

This has the moustache headstock. In what way is this not a Gibson headstock. Didn't the lawsuit require that they stop using the moustache or open book headstock? So, wouldn't this be a "lawsuit" guitar?

Thanks
#4
When did the 'lawsuit' have a ruling made? I would assume that Ibanez and other companies would have changed their design in certain ways to show good faith or what ever to Gibson... I would have a stab and say that the actual headstock design component would have been as a result of the 'lawsuit' either having a ruling passed down or a condition of a settlement... But then, Im certainly no lawyer and this is before my time. Besides that, only the shape and the headstock looks Gibson, the rest, ie layout of switches and pots etc, doesn't resemble a Gibbo that I know of... Im probably wrong though.
#5
gibsun never sued anyone over that guitar.

it's worth whatever they sell for on ebay.
#6
ok Ibanez was contacted by gibsons lawyers and threatened with a lawsuit over the direct copies they were making. before t actually went to court Ibanez had changed the headstock and started to work on their own designs. the OP's guitar is similar to an L6 but not exactly the same. only the guitars that were exact copies are true "lawsuit" guitars. that term has been used for marketing by sellers lately to sell Japanese made guitars from the 70s and is very overused in an effort to drive up prices.
#7
Well it is an L6S copy, and the headstock does look right for the Gibson model. But I can't see the front to make sure.

TS you have a pic of the from of the head-stock?

From what I can see, it does look like a L6S copy
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Last edited by Robbgnarly at Sep 22, 2013,
#8
What you have is not a Les Paul, but is a very nice L6S copy.

It was produced for a number of importers, including Carlos Robelli, a Sam Ash rebranding.

As such, I doubt that it was even mentioned in the headstock lawsuit.
Notice, by the way, that this headstock is not the same as the Les Paul Standard or Custom headstocks, but is actually narrower than both. I've got an original Gibson L6S that matches this one, and only on the reissue has Gibson put a Les Paul size headstock.

L6S were produced by Gibson from about '72 till around 1980, and most were solid maple (as is your copy), both body and neck. The narrower headstock is less likely to go out of tune than an LP's (less string angle).

The L6S was Gibson's first 24-fret guitar, and because of the wider body (and wider distance to the cutaway horn) and the thinner body and neck heel transition, upper fret access is far better than both Les Pauls and SGs. If the copy is accurate electronically, the six-position pickup selector switch gives you the usual neck only, bridge only and neck+bridge positions, and three more neck+bridge choices including neck+bridge parallel, neck+bridge parallel out of phase and neck+bridge serial out of phase. If the controls are accurately recreated, your controls include a Master Volume, Treble Rolloff (what we usually call a "tone" control) and a Mids Rolloff. On the reissues, the Mids Rolloff has been replaced with a bass rolloff and the "parallel" choices on the pickup selector have been replaced with single coil choices.

The real L6S is also Gibson's first "hot pickup" guitar, with a uniquely designed Bill Lawrence three-magnet pickup that was about 1.5X hotter than a standard PAF, no pole pieces and the entire thing encased in an epoxy goo. FWIW, that (Ibanez) guitar is worth much more in unmodded condition than with aftermarket add-ons. That said, I've seen the copies go in the $250-400 range, sometimes more (up to $750 or so). In some instances, the quality of the copies is better than the Gibson originals.

Remember, too, that Ibanez never built a guitar -- it's a brand name only, with guitars actually produced by plants like Fuji Gen Gakki, which produced the same guitars with various other brand names for importers all over the world.
Last edited by dspellman at Sep 22, 2013,
#9
Quote by dazza027
When did the 'lawsuit' have a ruling made? I would assume that Ibanez and other companies would have changed their design in certain ways to show good faith or what ever to Gibson... I would have a stab and say that the actual headstock design component would have been as a result of the 'lawsuit' either having a ruling passed down or a condition of a settlement...


Gibson's lawyers have never been particularly on top of their game.

The lawsuit was filed but withdrawn when it became clear that Ibanez had changed their headstocks well before the lawsuit was filed.

It never went to trial, there was never a ruling made and no one really knows what, if any, stipulations were made in the settlement. Rumor has it that the whole thing was on the order of the Emily LaTella rants on the old SNL, where the Gibson lawyers essentially said, "Oh. That's Different. Nevermind."
Last edited by dspellman at Sep 22, 2013,
#10
only dspellman could work a gilda ratner reference into a les paul thread and make it look natural.


pay attention at home kids, you can't coach this. you either have it or you don't. game on.
#12
Yes it it deff a L6S copy, but it is not worth a ton at all. maybe a few hundred at best
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate