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#6
Nope.


EDIT:


Quote by captainsnazz
At specific places where security is important like government buildings and that, yeah. Just like you shouldn't be able to walk into them wearing a balaclava.



Well, except for situations like this. I agree that there are certain times where it may be necessary to restrict the use of them. High security areas are certainly one, even if it's only done briefly for identification purposes.
#8
The probably with all of these forms of veiling of women is that they straddle a boundary between freedom of expression and extortion. Of course people should be allowed to wear what they like, but in many of these cases it's very difficult to see whether or not these women are choosing to wear them or are being forced to wear them. There's no doubt that they cause psychological problems due to the destruction of identity and personality, but then people should have every right to damage themselves if they so wish - but whether it's actually their wish or not is the rub.

Another problem is that they help perpetuate misogyny in the communities in which they are most prevalent, so I suppose in some ways wearing a veil damages others, not just oneself.
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#9
No, you should be able to dress however you chose. How is this even a question?
#10
Quote by seanlang01
No, you should be able to dress however you chose. How is this even a question?

Because there are multiple situations in which you may need to be identified
#11
Quote by seanlang01
No, you should be able to dress however you chose. How is this even a question?

As long as it's within the law. You can't wear a t-shirt with a baby getting bummed on it.
#12
Quote by seanlang01
No, you should be able to dress however you chose. How is this even a question?


Because in many cases it's clear that this isn't an example of a woman dressing how she chooses.
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#13
Quote by Todd Hart
The probably with all of these forms of veiling of women is that they straddle a boundary between freedom of expression and extortion. Of course people should be allowed to wear what they like, but in many of these cases it's very difficult to see whether or not these women are choosing to wear them or are being forced to wear them. There's no doubt that they cause psychological problems due to the destruction of identity and personality, but then people should have every right to damage themselves if they so wish - but whether it's actually their wish or not is the rub.

Another problem is that they help perpetuate misogyny in the communities in which they are most prevalent, so I suppose in some ways wearing a veil damages others, not just oneself.
You state all of that as if it is fact, but it is conjecture and your opinion. You cannot know what someone else feels or thinks unless they specifically tell you. If someone is being forced (as in, coercion) to wear something, then that is already a crime. A culture being repressive is really no one else's business but the people who practice it, unless and until they try to enforce it on other people. In this case, the people forcing their beliefs would be non-muslims considering disallowing people to wear a certain article of clothing.
#14
Only insofar as in government building or private shops, owners ought to be able to see a face for reasons of security. But they shouldn't be banned in public
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#15
Quote by Gibson_SG_uzr55
Only insofar as in government building or private shops, owners ought to be able to see a face for reasons of security. But they shouldn't be banned in public


i don't think the niqab-wearers would like it if they had to take it off every time they went inside...so this is essentially a yes, isn't it? i agree by the way.
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#16
Quote by Johnny_Ibanez
As long as it's within the law. You can't wear a t-shirt with a baby getting bummed on it.
Fair enough. But even that notion depends on whether the image is real (a photograph of an actual event) or not, in which case the crime would be supporting child prostitution/porn/abuse. Of course, I'm just speaking in terms of what I think should be right, and obviously some countries may actually ban anything even hinting at such a crime.
#17
Quote by seanlang01
You state all of that as if it is fact, but it is conjecture and your opinion. You cannot know what someone else feels or thinks unless they specifically tell you. If someone is being forced (as in, coercion) to wear something, then that is already a crime. A culture being repressive is really no one else's business but the people who practice it, unless and until they try to enforce it on other people. In this case, the people forcing their beliefs would be non-muslims considering disallowing people to wear a certain article of clothing.


I fundamentally disagree. If a culture is repressing its women then it's the responsibility of other cultures to force that culture to change; I detest this tragic "you're okay, I'm okay" style of cultural interaction.

And nothing I've said about the psychological dangers of veiling women is mere conjecture: there have been many studies of the problems, both mental and psychical, that long-term veiling causes, and most of them, from what I've seen, don't produce favorable results for the pro-veiling side.
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#18
Quote by EndTheRapture51
Should restrictions should apply to the wearing of the Islamic full-face veil (niqab) in public?


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#19
Quote by Gibson_SG_uzr55
Only insofar as in government building or private shops, owners ought to be able to see a face for reasons of security. But they shouldn't be banned in public


Pretty much this.
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#20
How about we in the "West" get our shit together first before we try to lecture other cultures how to behave in a moralistic way?
#21
Quote by Todd Hart
I fundamentally disagree. If a culture is repressing its women then it's the responsibility of other cultures to force that culture to change; I detest this tragic "you're okay, I'm okay" style of cultural interaction.

And nothing I've said about the psychological dangers of veiling women is mere conjecture: there have been many studies of the problems, both mental and psychical, that long-term veiling causes, and most of them, from what I've seen, don't produce favorable results for the pro-veiling side.
Well then I will ask this, how do you know which culture is right? What's to say that a well-meaning Muslim who thoroughly believes Western culture is wrong shouldn't try his/her hardest to pass laws based on scripture? And what if they did and won? How would you feel about that? From where does the responsibility to sort of look after another culture derive? That sort of attitude feels like oppression, and when codified into law it is just that.

I won't argue that there are never consequences as the result of cultural traditions. But you absolutely do not know that all women who wear a niqab will face the same issues. In fact, you are likely not to meet many Muslim women who would appreciate you trying to "help" them. It is insulting to insinuate that they cannot make choices for themselves or that they are unaware of their situation. In short, you can't force change. There are so many other cultural idiosyncrasies that Westerners have or used to practice that produce/d similar feelings; but change takes time.

And besides all that, I don't think there is a "pro-veling" side apart from religiously devout Muslims. And that should only apply to other Muslims.
#22
Quote by Todd Hart
I fundamentally disagree. If a culture is repressing its women then it's the responsibility of other cultures to force that culture to change; I detest this tragic "you're okay, I'm okay" style of cultural interaction.

And nothing I've said about the psychological dangers of veiling women is mere conjecture: there have been many studies of the problems, both mental and psychical, that long-term veiling causes, and most of them, from what I've seen, don't produce favorable results for the pro-veiling side.


Look at Todd enforcing his Eurocentric ideas on people
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#23
Quote by Todd Hart
Because in many cases it's clear that this isn't an example of a woman dressing how she chooses.

If it really is the case that some of the women wearing niqabs are being forced to do so (probably is), the solution is still not to ban niqabs. That cures only a superficial symptom of a much larger problem, and creates more problems in the process.
Last edited by captainsnazz at Sep 23, 2013,
#24
Quote by vIsIbleNoIsE
i don't think the niqab-wearers would like it if they had to take it off every time they went inside...so this is essentially a yes, isn't it? i agree by the way.

Yeah it is a yes, but that's the only reason I can think of for it being acceptable. A woman walking down the street with one I have no problem with, whereas some people think they should be completely banned in public.
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#25
Quote by seanlang01
Well then I will ask this, how do you know which culture is right? What's to say that a well-meaning Muslim who thoroughly believes Western culture is wrong shouldn't try his/her hardest to pass laws based on scripture? And what if they did and won? How would you feel about that? From where does the responsibility to sort of look after another culture derive? That sort of attitude feels like oppression, and when codified into law it is just that.


'Right' is that which results in a greater level of overall happiness, for lack of a better term. Happiness is not actually what I mean, as I think happiness has a somewhat narrow meaning, but alas.

And there are quite a few examples of people trying to create societies based on scripture (religious or not) and almost all of them have ended up being horrific states. If someone wanted to enforce his or her religious views on everyone else, no matter how well-meaning he/she was, I'd quite frankly detest them.

And also, I quite clearly stated that I think niqabs should be allowed - I merely outlined the reasons that simple acceptance of the niqab is naive. People should be allowed to wear what they wish, but we have to appreciate the danger that this can cause, especially in specific cases such as the veiling of women.

And the requirement to look after the citizens of 'another culture' comes from the fact that the citizens of that culture are not actually 'other' at all.

I won't argue that there are never consequences as the result of cultural traditions. But you absolutely do not know that all women who wear a niqab will face the same issues. In fact, you are likely not to meet many Muslim women who would appreciate you trying to "help" them. It is insulting to insinuate that they cannot make choices for themselves or that they are unaware of their situation. In short, you can't force change. There are so many other cultural idiosyncrasies that Westerners have or used to practice that produce/d similar feelings; but change takes time.


Change certainly takes time, and doesn't come from censorship, but change requires pressure. Criticising acceptance of the veiling of women and highlighting the very potent threat mentally it can pose to women, and indeed to men, in the communities in which they are common is merely the application of pressure.

I support the right for women to wear what they like, but if I'm going to demand the right for their expression then I'm sure as hell going to demand my right to tell them that what they're doing is tacitly supporting misogyny and the destruction of the identity of women, and, sadly, almost certainly helping to keep women who do not wish to be veiled trapped in societies where they are forced to remain so.

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Look at Todd enforcing his Eurocentric ideas on people


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Last edited by Todd Hart at Sep 23, 2013,
#26
Yes there should be exceptions.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#27
Quote by Johnny_Ibanez
The law > the quirks of your religion.

Didn't realize there was a law against covering your face. I guess masks are out then.

Covering your face has little to do with Islam, as well. Apart from Muhammed telling his followers to always be modest in every aspect of their lives, the Quran makes no mention of covering your face. It's a cultural thing, and you can see that by observing Coptic and Orthodox Christians from the same regions as these Muslims, these Christians also cover their heads and faces with shawls.

I'm not a Muslim, but ignorance about Islam really bothers me.
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#28
Quote by VanTheKraut
Didn't realize there was a law against covering your face. I guess masks are out then.

If I walk into a bank wearing a mask you can wish me luck. If I try to give evidence to a jury with my face wrapped up in a scarf, regardless of whether the heating in the courtroom is out, it's not going to go well.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
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and all you can do is just wait by the moon
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#30
Also I agree with Todd's sentiment that the pressure on girls to wear the veil in some communities isn't cool.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
#31
Quote by captainsnazz
Todd, have you ever considered expressing your thoughts in a way that doesn't result in a great wall of text so that maybe some people would actually read them?

It's not his fault people are lazy
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#32
Quote by captainsnazz
Todd, have you ever considered expressing your thoughts in a way that doesn't result in a great wall of text so that maybe some people would actually read them?


I'm used to writing as quickly as I think due to the fact I keep a journal for writing, so I end up talking a lot, sorry.

In a more concise manner: I think women should be allowed to wear the niqab, but ultimately I think that while we allow this we should make it clear the psychological and social damage it would appear to cause. Ultimately I think society should reach a point where the concept of wearing a niqab would be abhorrent, because of the fact it is clearly designed to remove the identity of women, but I don't think we should ban them outright, because doing so will never result in that state.
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Last edited by Todd Hart at Sep 23, 2013,
#33
Quote by Hydra150
If I walk into a bank wearing a mask you can wish me luck. If I try to give evidence to a jury with my face wrapped up in a scarf, regardless of whether the heating in the courtroom is out, it's not going to go well.
And none of the above situations are the same as outright banning someone from wearing a certain type of clothing. Nor is any one allowed to do such things without consequence, (in most of the Western world, I don't know every country's laws).
#34
I also want to point out that, as mentioned, a niqab is a cultural thing, not a religious thing, so freedom of religion doesn't really apply. I just think they're acceptable in public outside of certain institutions because they don't directly harm anyone (in many cases they're oppressive on the wearer but that's a different argument).
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#35
Instead of pressuring communities that wear the niqab to change, we should instead focus on the right of the individual to choose NOT to wear it. People who try to shame members of their community for not participating should be abhorred, rather than all people who wear it, or think it is proper for their family etc.
#36
Quote by captainsnazz
Todd, have you ever considered expressing your thoughts in a way that doesn't result in a great wall of text so that maybe some people would actually read them?


He least stays consistent and on point in his posts, in other forums I visit, there's some people who post longer walls of text that start on point, and steadily delve so off point, you'll get to a point where you think "what the fuck am I reading, and why am I still reading this shit?"
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#37
Quote by Hydra150
If I walk into a bank wearing a mask you can wish me luck. If I try to give evidence to a jury with my face wrapped up in a scarf, regardless of whether the heating in the courtroom is out, it's not going to go well.

If you were a woman from the Middle East I wouldn't have to wish you luck because most people recognize that aspect of their culture. I live in Kansas. A state that's been firmly conservative since the Civil War, and I see women in Hijabs and Burkahs in all kinds of places. Anybody with a brain doesn't mind.
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#38
Quote by VanTheKraut
If you were a woman from the Middle East I wouldn't have to wish you luck because most people recognize that aspect of their culture. I live in Kansas. A state that's been firmly conservative since the Civil War, and I see women in Hijabs and Burkahs in all kinds of places. Anybody with a brain doesn't mind.

If you're a Middle Eastern woman you're allowed to just cover your face in places where identification is vital, because you're Middle Eastern?

I don't even.
#39
Quote by VanTheKraut
If you were a woman from the Middle East I wouldn't have to wish you luck because most people recognize that aspect of their culture. I live in Kansas. A state that's been firmly conservative since the Civil War, and I see women in Hijabs and Burkahs in all kinds of places. Anybody with a brain doesn't mind.


The law does not, and should not, recognise culture; it is universal.
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#40
Quote by seanlang01
And none of the above situations are the same as outright banning someone from wearing a certain type of clothing.
Nor is any one allowed to do such things without consequence, (in most of the Western world, I don't know every country's laws).
This discussion isn't about banning it outright, but having exceptions where it is not allowed.

The current national discussion about the issue in Britain comes from the case of a judge ordering a Muslim woman to remove her veil as she was giving evidence to the jury, because they should be able to see her face.
Also some politicians trying to score some points by saying that we should have a 'discussion' about whether it should be allowed in certain public buildings. Some hospitals have policies that their staff can't wear the full face veil, for example.
But boys will be boys and girls have those eyes
that'll cut you to ribbons, sometimes
and all you can do is just wait by the moon
and bleed if it's what she says you ought to do
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