#1
I've heard someone talk about playing over a Dm7 chord, and then he superimposes the Bdim arpeggio over it. Bdim = B-D-F with the B being the 6th (dorian sound) over the Dm7, so i can see why it would work. Just don't see how they relate/link theory wise, is there a rule to come up with this stuff? Is there a term for this stuff?

I never really looked into the diminished world so i must be missing something pretty simple here.

Thaanks
Last edited by GotStrings at Sep 30, 2013,
#2
He's actually just playing an extended chord, a Dm13 (Dm7 + B). Learn about extended chords (9th, 11th and 13th chords) and experiment with the sounds. Sometimes emphasizing the 9th, 11th or 13th sounds really nice.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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#3
Quote by GotStrings
I've heard someone talk about playing over a Dm7 chord, and then he superimposes the Bdim arpeggio over it. Bdim = B-D-F with the B being the 6th (dorian sound) over the Dm7, so i can see why it would work. Just don't see how they relate/link theory wise, is there a rule to come up with this stuff? Is there a term for this stuff?

I never really looked into the diminished world so i must be missing something pretty simple here.

Thaanks

It's called superimposition.

Take a chord like Dm7, and then superimpose a arpeggio diatonic to the key. In this case C major. But Dm7 can also be the iii chord in Bb major, or the vi in F major.

The farthest chord tone will create the largest extension. So if you wanted to get a 13th tension, then superimpose Cmaj7 over Dm7, cuz C is the b7.

But what if you were treating Dm7 as the vi in F? You would then superimpose C7 arpeggio over it, creating a 9th, 11th and a b13th tension.

Interesting sounds.
#4
Quote by mdc
It's called superimposition.

Take a chord like Dm7, and then superimpose a arpeggio diatonic to the key. In this case C major. But Dm7 can also be the iii chord in Bb major, or the vi in F major.

The farthest chord tone will create the largest extension. So if you wanted to get a 13th tension, then superimpose Cmaj7 over Dm7, cuz C is the b7.

But what if you were treating Dm7 as the vi in F? You would then superimpose C7 arpeggio over it, creating a 9th, 11th and a b13th tension.

Interesting sounds.

This is the stuff i was looking for! Thanks dude!
#5
The only thing I would add to this is that, it's not correct to call it "Bdim over Dm7" in a lot of cases. If you're soloing and you play a Bdim arpeggio over a Dm7 backing chord, that's fine. No one is going to care if you say, "Well, I decided to play a Bdim arpeggio over the Dm7 in this part of my solo". Some people might think that an odd choice (though it would sound very interesting, imho), but no one is going to care.

But suppose that you and another guitarist write a song. Suppose that, at one point during the song, you play D7 and he plays Aminor. When you look at this as a whole, the chord is actually either D9 or Am6/11 (which chord it is depends on the key of the song). Point is, it would be incorrect, in this case, to say "play D7 with an Aminor". Rather, depending upon the key, you should say D9 or Am6/11. Make sense?
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Sep 30, 2013,
#6
Quote by GotStrings
I've heard someone talk about playing over a Dm7 chord, and then he superimposes the Bdim arpeggio over it. Bdim = B-D-F with the B being the 6th (dorian sound) over the Dm7, so i can see why it would work. Just don't see how they relate/link theory wise, is there a rule to come up with this stuff? Is there a term for this stuff?

I never really looked into the diminished world so i must be missing something pretty simple here.

Thaanks



Another way to see it...

The B diminished scale..could be substituted as an altered G7 chord..

try seeing the ii7 - V7 (Dmi7 - G7) chords as one chord..break them down and see the relationships...its a great improv tool..then substitute a diminished scale a half step higher than the V7 ( G7 = Ab diminished scale) .. you can even extend this line of thinking by making G7-Bb7-Db7-E7..a series (symmetric harmony)(try resolving these 7th chord arpeggios to the following chords CMA7 EbMA7 GbMA7 AMA7) and substituting diminished scales for any of the 7th chords..

lots of possibilities..have fun..

wolf
#7
From a theory point of view i understand all of this, but are there like rules? Like, play a sixth above the root in dim and it will sound cool kinda thing? Or is this the place where you really need a good grasp on theory? Like, how would i come up with playing a bdim over a Dmin7 instantly? Let's say i'm jamming... that's the part i don't understand. Unless this is really knowing your theory and playing with that, in that case i do get it, but cant use it yet.
#9
Quote by GotStrings
From a theory point of view i understand all of this, but are there like rules? Like, play a sixth above the root in dim and it will sound cool kinda thing? Or is this the place where you really need a good grasp on theory? Like, how would i come up with playing a bdim over a Dmin7 instantly? Let's say i'm jamming... that's the part i don't understand. Unless this is really knowing your theory and playing with that, in that case i do get it, but cant use it yet.



it will take time to insert diminished scale/chords into your playing...one way is to realize that many abstract chords can be simplified .. example Abdim7th can also be thought of as a G7b9 chord (no root)..B-D-F-Ab / 3-5-b7-b9..same notes as the arpeggio for the Ab dim7 chord..

the sounds you will find may also be strange.at first..but with time and practice you will hear them in a new way...no its not going to just happen because your playing the notes..in time you will know how and when to use them...

listen to some of john scofield solos...he uses dim7 runs a lot...


wolf
#10
Quote by GotStrings
From a theory point of view i understand all of this, but are there like rules? Like, play a sixth above the root in dim and it will sound cool kinda thing? Or is this the place where you really need a good grasp on theory? Like, how would i come up with playing a bdim over a Dmin7 instantly? Let's say i'm jamming... that's the part i don't understand. Unless this is really knowing your theory and playing with that, in that case i do get it, but cant use it yet.

You don't need to know any theory to come up with this stuff. It's all about using your ears. You know how every note sounds like and you can play it. If you don't know the sound of every note, you can always experiment and learn the sounds. I think the ultimate goal for me in guitar playing is that I could play whatever I hear instantly without even needing to think about it. And that's what the best guitarists can do. It's all about connecting your ears and fingers - I think you could compare that to singing. You don't need to think anything to sing the notes you want to sing. If somebody plays a note, you can instantly sing it. Or if you hear a note inside your head, you can sing it. You don't need to think about scales or anything when you sing, you just sing notes that you hear in your head.

Theory doesn't say "this sounds good, use it". Theory only explains what you have played. So if you play "B diminished arpeggio" over a Dm7 chord, theory can explain it - as said before, you are actually playing a Dm13 arpeggio. Theory doesn't tell you to do something or not to do something. You decide which stuff sounds good to you. Theory only gives an explanation of what you just did. And everything in music can be explained.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#11
Quote by GotStrings
From a theory point of view i understand all of this, but are there like rules? Like, play a sixth above the root in dim and it will sound cool kinda thing? Or is this the place where you really need a good grasp on theory? Like, how would i come up with playing a bdim over a Dmin7 instantly? Let's say i'm jamming... that's the part i don't understand. Unless this is really knowing your theory and playing with that, in that case i do get it, but cant use it yet.


Rules? Definitely not.

Tools and conventions? Lots.

As has been said, there is a characteristic sound inherent to any particular note played over a chord - that's why they all have names and numbers. What should guide your note choice is context. If you're playing a Dm7, it matters quite a bit what key you're in and what chords are on either side of it. A sense of melodic direction is necessary to make even "safe" notes sound good, and out-of-key notes need real finesse to sound right.

Really experiment with phrasing, rhythm, and technique/articulation to explore different note/chord sounds.

And don't forget that you're always playing a chord - think of how your melodic notes fit into the chord and if it's at odds with the overall harmony.

If you study up about Theory some you'll learn there are much more concrete ways to discuss these things.
Last edited by cdgraves at Oct 3, 2013,