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#1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24575180

According to legal documents, seen by the BBC, her claim centres on three incidents when she had to speak to the police force's control room via her radio handset.

PC Chapman says that on the first occasion, in October 2012, the operator did not believe who she was, saying she had a "male voice".

In her witness statement, the police constable said: "I felt a combination of alarm and distress.

" I replied... 'I am a transsexual'.

"I felt very embarrassed and desperate. The incident took my breath away."


I'm struggling to see the issue here. Of course, transsexuals/transgenders/etc should be treated with respect and equality, but I don't feel as though the control room operator was unjustified in querying the officers identity.

How do you see it? Is this acceptable behaviour on behalf of the operator? Reasonable grounds for the officer to sue?
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#3
She felt alarm and distress because the control room operator has gone his entire life equating a male voice with males?
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
Last edited by WCPhils at Oct 18, 2013,
#5
I saw this earlier and was also considering making a thread.

The problem is that this officer thinks simply because they felt embarrassed due to their gender, that this is someone's fault. Yeah, it was an awkward situation, does that give you grounds to sue? Clearly not.

Unless they want a note under their name on every document saying "used to be a man, so watch out for their voice" there's not really any way this would've been avoided. You used to be a man, so sounds a bit male. They heard a male voice and queried it. Nobody's at fault here.
#6
Yeah I'm not seeing the grounds on which she can sue. Dude made a simple mistake. Pretty unreasonable to expect him to immediately consider a rare circumstance when the voice just sounded like a man's to him.

And why is she embarrassed to be trans? She made the decision, she should be proud.
#9
Quote by Rockford_rocks
And why is she embarrassed to be trans? She made the decision, she should be proud.

It's not so much that she was embarrassed to be trans, it's that it's embarrassing to have to correct something like that over a massive radio network after she'd decided to keep the issue to herself due to a lack of support from colleagues.

While it looks like an odd situation and I doubt there was any maliciousness to the operator, I can see how the situation could cause humiliation.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#10
Breaking news: I just received a lawsuit from the time I noogied someone when we were 8 years old.
#11
It's like, get over it, you know?
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#12
Quote by Lemoninfluence
It's not so much that she was embarrassed to be trans, it's that it's embarrassing to have to correct something like that over a massive radio network after she'd decided to keep the issue to herself due to a lack of support from colleagues.

While it looks like an odd situation and I doubt there was any maliciousness to the operator, I can see how the situation could cause humiliation.

+1


This stuff isn't fun to explain. I can't imagine any police officers being open to LGBT identities and that'd be much less fun to publicly announce, especially if you've been taught your entire life that it's wrong/shameful/should be hidden.

And apparently what she's demanding is the police force educate its officers in gay and trans identity? How is this bad? Reading the article it looks like she hasn't come out of her own will, just over the police radio.
Last edited by ali.guitarkid7 at Oct 18, 2013,
#13
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
+1


This stuff isn't fun to explain. I can't imagine any police officers being open to LGBT identities and that'd be much less fun to publicly announce, especially if you've been taught your entire life that it's wrong/shameful/should be hidden.

And apparently what she's demanding is the police force educate its officers in gay and trans identity? How is this bad? Reading the article it looks like she hasn't come out of her own will, just over the police radio.

How the hell do you train somebody to identify a transgender voice over a radio?
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#14
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
+1


This stuff isn't fun to explain. I can't imagine any police officers being open to LGBT identities and that'd be much less fun to publicly announce, especially if you've been taught your entire life that it's wrong/shameful/should be hidden.

And apparently what she's demanding is the police force educate its officers in gay and trans identity? How is this bad? Reading the article it looks like she hasn't come out of her own will, just over the police radio.


It's bad because police are woefully undertrained as it is in far more important areas.

Also, honestly, get the **** over it. If you don't want to explain it, that's your ****ing problem. If you're discriminated against because of it, then THAT is a real problem. But until then, her embarrassment is her problem to get over. If she's so stressed about it, she should see a ****ing therapist.

I don't see why everyone needs to be trained in "LGBTETC identity" when the real problem is that she's ashamed of who she is.
#15
Quote by progdude93
I don't see why everyone needs to be trained in "LGBTETC identity" when the real problem is that she's ashamed of who she is.


That's not really the real problem at all.
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#16
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
+1


This stuff isn't fun to explain. I can't imagine any police officers being open to LGBT identities and that'd be much less fun to publicly announce, especially if you've been taught your entire life that it's wrong/shameful/should be hidden.

And apparently what she's demanding is the police force educate its officers in gay and trans identity? How is this bad? Reading the article it looks like she hasn't come out of her own will, just over the police radio.

Again though, there's a difference in saying it was embarrassing and that there was any fault or grounds for legal action.

I'm sure education on LGBT matters would be great for police, but saying that anything like that would avoid someone not being able to tell someone was now a woman because they still sounded like a man is (if you'll forgive the phrase) political correctness gone mad.
#17
Really? Because I understand that there's plenty of trans-based discrimination. But this isn't an example of it.

She was accessing a secure radio channel, in which she needs to identify herself. If there is any confusion as to the identity of someone accessing a SECURE radio channel, it needs to be clarified. If she's not comfortable identifying herself as trans, then she needs to get a different job, or just sack up.
#18
I still find all this trans stuff...icky.
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#19
Quote by MadClownDisease
Again though, there's a difference in saying it was embarrassing and that there was any fault or grounds for legal action.

finding grounds for legal action is easy.

Section 13 Equality Act 2010
Section 19 Equality Act 2010

Whether it'll actually get anywhere is another matter.

I'm sure education on LGBT matters would be great for police, but saying that anything like that would avoid someone not being able to tell someone was now a woman because they still sounded like a man is (if you'll forgive the phrase) political correctness gone mad.


The pitch of the voice shouldn't really matter. If it's an issue of an officer being impersonated, then what's to stop any man on the street impersonating a male officer, or any random female impersonating a female officer? Why should an operator believe that PC Patel is really PC Patel if he doesn't have an Indian accent?

When the issue was brought to the attention of higher ups, it should have been looked into and procedures should have been looked at.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#21
Quote by Lemoninfluence
The pitch of the voice shouldn't really matter. If it's an issue of an officer being impersonated, then what's to stop any man on the street impersonating a male officer, or any random female impersonating a female officer? Why should an operator believe that PC Patel is really PC Patel if he doesn't have an Indian accent?


Your Patel example is moronic, since plenty of people don't have the accent of their actual ethnicity.

And as for pitch, yes, it should matter. Because it's another layer of security. Nobody's saying, "Oh, well, since you're obviously a man, you must be who you say you are."
#22
Quote by guitarist41
I still find all this trans stuff...icky.

You can find it gross but don't act like they're somehow inferior for it. I find it pretty respectable and brave in current society tbh
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#23
Quote by progdude93
Really? Because I understand that there's plenty of trans-based discrimination. But this isn't an example of it.

She was accessing a secure radio channel, in which she needs to identify herself. If there is any confusion as to the identity of someone accessing a SECURE radio channel, it needs to be clarified. If she's not comfortable identifying herself as trans, then she needs to get a different job, or just sack up.

Agreed.

Also, the training for police should be focused around criminal activities. Not LGBT "training". That just sounds like a complete waste of time and money. There are plenty of watchdogs and whistleblowers in any agency. If there is enough discrimination going on, there will be a reaction.
#24
Quote by progdude93
It's bad because police are woefully undertrained as it is in far more important areas.

Also, honestly, get the **** over it. If you don't want to explain it, that's your ****ing problem. If you're discriminated against because of it, then THAT is a real problem. But until then, her embarrassment is her problem to get over. If she's so stressed about it, she should see a ****ing therapist.

I don't see why everyone needs to be trained in "LGBTETC identity" when the real problem is that she's ashamed of who she is.

So it means that other fields in which they are undertrained should be wholly ignored?


I'm pretty sure her problem with outing herself is her fear of discrimination. But the problem here is that she was forced to explain her gender identity, when she didn't want to, because her validity was in question cuz of her voice.

Quote by Jackal58
How the hell do you train somebody to identify a transgender voice over a radio?

The point is to make the officers aware that there are LGBT people serving in the force, and they should exercise sensitivity when asking questions about gender identity. These are things that immigration officers, nurses and lots of other gov't employees are being taught and it doesn't take very long.

Quote by MadClownDisease
Again though, there's a difference in saying it was embarrassing and that there was any fault or grounds for legal action.

I'm sure education on LGBT matters would be great for police, but saying that anything like that would avoid someone not being able to tell someone was now a woman because they still sounded like a man is (if you'll forgive the phrase) political correctness gone mad.

Yeah, that's true, but I think the point is their unwillingness to learn how to handle gender identity issues.


I don't know if it's 'political correctness gone mad'. I guess that depends on how much importance you place on being sensitive about gay and trans issues, which I can only decide for myself.

Quote by progdude93
Your Patel example is moronic, since plenty of people don't have the accent of their actual ethnicity.

And plenty of people identify as female without having 'feminine' or high pitched voices.
Last edited by ali.guitarkid7 at Oct 18, 2013,
#25
Quote by progdude93
Your Patel example is moronic, since plenty of people don't have the accent of their actual ethnicity.

And as for pitch, yes, it should matter. Because it's another layer of security. Nobody's saying, "Oh, well, since you're obviously a man, you must be who you say you are."

And plenty of women have deep voices.

If there are identification procedures already in place (I assume there are) then that should satisfy the operator. If that procedure is inadequate, it needs to be changed.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
Last edited by Lemoninfluence at Oct 18, 2013,
#26
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
I can't imagine any police officers being open to LGBT identities

lol
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#27
I have a hard time believing that training people on LGBT stuff will truly help in the decline of discrimination towards LGBT. In fact, it could worsen it to a certain extent, imo. Not everyone will accept it.

I'm all about the equality though.
#28
Quote by Lemoninfluence
And plenty of women have deep voices.

Yes but I've never been unable to tell the difference between an adult male and female voice. If he accepted the male voice with a female name he'd probably be laughed at and in trouble, possibly fired if she caused a problem.
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#29
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
So it means that other fields in which they are undertrained should be wholly ignored?

I'm pretty sure her problem with outing herself is her fear of discrimination. But the problem here is that she was forced to explain her gender identity, when she didn't want to, because her validity was in question cuz of her voice.


No, but I think it makes the most sense to train them in areas they need to be trained in for survival purposes (and everyday/frequent occurrence purposes) before wasting a bunch of money training them to be ready for the rare occasion that a transgender person needs to be identified on radio.

And while her fear is legitimate, it's unfortunate that she has to deal with it. We all have hangups, but nobody feels bad telling an agoraphobe to get the **** over it and go outside.

If she is discriminated against, that's a legitimate issue. But being forced to identify yourself as trans isn't being discriminated against. If you don't want to have to do that, either hide your trans status, or don't work in the security fields, where identifying yourself is a huge (and necessary) part of the job.
#30
Quote by Lemoninfluence
It's not so much that she was embarrassed to be trans, it's that it's embarrassing to have to correct something like that over a massive radio network after she'd decided to keep the issue to herself due to a lack of support from colleagues.

While it looks like an odd situation and I doubt there was any maliciousness to the operator, I can see how the situation could cause humiliation.


Fair enough, but like you said there's no intent. She could probably start the case in court under him causing her emotional distress, but there's no way the ruling would end up in her favor, best case scenario she'd maybe be able to claim nominal damages.

So if she really wants to put herself through all the legal fees and such to put this into the court system, good on her. But personally I don't see what she accomplishes besides for pride reasons. Even then, she'll still have the memory.
#31
I know plenty of women with fairly deep voices and they still obviously have a female voice. I've never been confused to someone's gender based on just their voice

Speaking voice that is. Singing gets a little murky sometimes.
___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
#32
Quote by Lemoninfluence
And plenty of women have deep voices.


A woman with a deep voice doesn't necessarily sound anything like a man. It's generally pretty easy to tell the difference between a "male" and "female" voice. And even if some women that have the a voice that could be mistaken for a man's, they really are a very small minority. To just assume that any woman is likely to have such a deep voice is really kind of silly.

And that's ignoring other elements of speech that separate a man and a woman. It's not just the overall pitch or whatever. There are certain patterns, such changes in pitch, differences in inflection, differences in phrasing, etc, that further help to indicate the sex of the person's voice. She obviously has a male voice, and there really is no getting around that.
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#33
Quote by Lemoninfluence
And plenty of women have deep voices.

If there are identification procedures already in place (I assume there are) then that should satisfy the operator. If that procedure is inadequate, it needs to be changed.


It's not inadequate. Think about it like this: if someone identifies themselves as Person A, who is of Greek descent, but has lived in the US their whole life, and for some reason speaks in a deep Russian accent, it calls into question whether that person is who he/she says he/she is. And that's perfectly valid, because the field in question involves security and ensuring that they identify each other as well as possible (within reason).

I've no doubt there are changes that could be made to improve the system, but this isn't really one of them. If you work in a field where you need to identify yourself for security purposes, and you're uncomfortable identifying yourself fully, then you're the problem.
#34
Isn't it kind of the operator's job to query the identity of officers?

Also, imagine if there was a long-haired bloke working as a policeman. A co-worker approaches from behind and says "Excuse me ma'am."

Can you sue the force for that? I don't think so.

I have no problem with transgender people (one of my best friends is transgender), but whinging and complaining just because someone got confused by your voice is pathetic and childish.
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#36
Quote by progdude93
It's not inadequate. Think about it like this: if someone identifies themselves as Person A, who is of Greek descent, but has lived in the US their whole life, and for some reason speaks in a deep Russian accent, it calls into question whether that person is who he/she says he/she is. And that's perfectly valid, because the field in question involves security and ensuring that they identify each other as well as possible (within reason).

I've no doubt there are changes that could be made to improve the system, but this isn't really one of them. If you work in a field where you need to identify yourself for security purposes, and you're uncomfortable identifying yourself fully, then you're the problem.

If you knew that much about them (that they'd lived their entire life in the US) and something contradicted what you knew, then that would be an adequate reason to suspect foul play. Instead, something more appropriate would be PC Patel having a scottish accent and requiring them to explain that their parents moved to glasgow before they were born.

It wasn't that her voice contradicted something that was known, requiring additional security, it's that the operators made assumptions about her.

And she was comfortable fully identifying as trans. It was the lack of support that she got after doing that, that lead her to go back into the closet.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#37
Quote by Lemoninfluence
If you knew that much about them (that they'd lived their entire life in the US) and something contradicted what you knew, then that would be an adequate reason to suspect foul play. Instead, something more appropriate would be PC Patel having a scottish accent and requiring them to explain that their parents moved to glasgow before they were born.


No, because there are tons of people whose parents/grandparents/great-grandparents moved before they were born. I know you're not actually this dumb, though why you're pretending to be is beyond me.

Quote by Lemoninfluence
It wasn't that her voice contradicted something that was known, requiring additional security, it's that the operators made assumptions about her.


Well, yes, they did make assumptions. But they made the proper assumption. You shouldn't base a system around the outlier. You base the system in a way to maximize efficiency, and include a way to deal with the outlier. In this case, dealing with the outlier would be saying, "This sounds like a man, who are you." And the person responding, "I'm trans." And that being the end of it.

Quote by Lemoninfluence
And she was comfortable fully identifying as trans. It was the lack of support that she got after doing that, that lead her to go back into the closet.


Tough shit. That sucks for her, but nobody owes her support. They certainly owe her the rights any human gets, and she should absolutely not be discriminated against, but that's part of the life.

It's unfortunate, but identifying yourself on radio has nothing to do with that. It doesn't make it any better or worse.
#38
Quote by Lemoninfluence
It wasn't that her voice contradicted something that was known, requiring additional security, it's that the operators made assumptions about her.


They assumed that a female would have a female voice? How awful!
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#39
Quote by theogonia777
They assumed that a female would have a female voice? How awful!

Right!?
#40
Quote by theogonia777
They assumed that a female would have a female voice? How awful!

___

Quote by The_Blode
she was saying things like... do you want to netflix and chill but just the chill part...too bad she'll never know that I only like the Netflix part...
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