#1
So I was going over this idea called composite scales with my teacher. Essentially it is a blues scale with an added Major 7th. My question is how do I go about identifying the intervals? We are thinking A minor.
#2
The link you posted is displayed as a forbidden link because you haven't posted much yet (it's an anti adbot thing)

So can you try to explain in a bit more detail exactly what you're talking about?
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#3
Ok, so here's what I'm imagining, based off of your description. The scale (in A minor) would have the following notes:
A, C, D, Eb, E, G, & G#.

I would simply call the intervals: 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7, & 7. So, regardless of key, your notes should always fit that interval pattern. Basically what you have here is an A minor scale with a few non-diatonic notes.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Oct 31, 2013,
#4
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Ok, so here's what I'm imagining, based off of your description. The scale (in A minor) would have the following notes:
A, C, D, Eb, E, G, & G#.

I would simply call the intervals: 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7, & 7. So, regardless of key, your notes should always fit that interval pattern. Basically what you have here is an A minor scale with a few non-diatonic notes.


Why would you call A to C a flat 3rd? Shouldn't it be a minor 3rd?
#5
Quote by chaseh
Why would you call A to C a flat 3rd? Shouldn't it be a minor 3rd?


b3 is just another name for minor third.
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#6
Quote by chaseh
Why would you call A to C a flat 3rd? Shouldn't it be a minor 3rd?

Because that's how you notate minor thirds in numerical interval format. If you want the interval names, then they're called: tonic, minor third, major fourth, minor fifth, major fifth, minor seventh, and major seventh. But "1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7, & 7" is merely another way to show "tonic, minor third, major fourth, minor fifth, major fifth, minor seventh, and major seventh". It's easier to write the former, which is why the former is commonly used.
#7
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Because that's how you notate minor thirds in numerical interval format. If you want the interval names, then they're called: tonic, minor third, major fourth, minor fifth, major fifth, minor seventh, and major seventh. But "1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7, & 7" is merely another way to show "tonic, minor third, major fourth, minor fifth, major fifth, minor seventh, and major seventh". It's easier to write the former, which is why the former is commonly used.


If we're gonna get technical here then there's no such thing as a major fourth or minor fifth or major fifth. "Technically" they're called perfect fourth, diminished fifth and perfect fifth. Just an fyi.
#8
Quote by a.chapmanist
If we're gonna get technical here then there's no such thing as a major fourth or minor fifth or major fifth. "Technically" they're called perfect fourth, diminished fifth and perfect fifth. Just an fyi.


Yep.

Seconds, thirds, sixths and sevenths are commonly major or minor. They can be augmented and diminished as well though.

Fourths and fifths are commonly diminished, perfect or augmented.

But yes, it's just different ways to describe intervals. A flat third and a minor third is the same thing.
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#9
Quote by Sickz
Yep.

Seconds, thirds, sixths and sevenths are commonly major or minor. They can be augmented and diminished as well though.

Fourths and fifths are commonly diminished, perfect or augmented.

But yes, it's just different ways to describe intervals. A flat third and a minor third is the same thing.


Help me out here. I've never heard of an augmented third or a diminished sixth before.
#10
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Because that's how you notate minor thirds in numerical interval format. If you want the interval names, then they're called: tonic, minor third, major fourth, minor fifth, major fifth, minor seventh, and major seventh. But "1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7, & 7" is merely another way to show "tonic, minor third, major fourth, minor fifth, major fifth, minor seventh, and major seventh". It's easier to write the former, which is why the former is commonly used.


If I were to offer an alternate way of writing it as I, iii, IV, v, V, vii, VII, would I be correct? Or is my AP Theory class a joke and I shouldn't take it seriously?
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#11
Quote by a.chapmanist
Help me out here. I've never heard of an augmented third or a diminished sixth before.


It's when you sharpen/flatten notes beyond the major/minor interval.

If you are in the key of C and sharpen the E, it's an augmented third. Cause E is already a major third, and then you sharpen it to become augmented.

If you are in the key of Am and flatten the C, it's a diminished third. Cause C is already a minor third, then you flatten it to become diminished.
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Last edited by Sickz at Nov 2, 2013,
#12
Quote by Sickz
It's pretty uncommon, but i'll give you an example from personal experience.

I was handed a piece in C major last week, and then i had a line that contained a notated B, a B with a flat infront of it (So instead of a major seventh it became a minor seventh in that key) and then a B with two flats infront of it, then it was a diminished seventh.

So basically, if you flatten a major interval (major second ,third, sixth, seventh) it becomes a minor interval. If you double flatten it, it becomes diminished.

Same works for sharpening minor intervals. In A minor you sharpen the third, C to C#, it becomes a major third. You double sharpen it, it becomes an augmented third.

It might be something that is just common here in scandinavia, cause we are taught this terminology here. It might just be a regional thing, just like "H" is used instead of the note "B" in some places. So someone please correct me if this is not what it's referred to in the US/UK.


The diminished seventh makes sense for the sake of a full diminished seventh chord or something like that, but I wouldn't call a C double sharp in A minor an augmented third if I can just call it a perfect fourth.
#13
Quote by a.chapmanist
Help me out here. I've never heard of an augmented third or a diminished sixth before.

They are possible intervals but not really common.

^ Between C and E there's always a third. If you sharpen the E note so that it becomes an E#, it's still a third, even though it sounds like a fourth. Between C and F there's a fourth but between C and E# there's a third.
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#14
Quote by a.chapmanist
The diminished seventh makes sense for the sake of a full diminished seventh chord or something like that, but I wouldn't call a C double sharp in A minor an augmented third if I can just call it a perfect fourth.


III+ and IV are enharmonic equivalents, but not the same chord. C double sharp and D are distinct notes. I'm not really polished on enharmonics, I just heard that you can't do that.
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#15
If our root is C and we play an E# against it that will not sound like a third. It will sound like a fourth because it is one of course. Sonically they sound the same the difference is in what you call it. If I had a scale that looked like this: 1 2 #3 #4 5 6 7 8 then augmented third would be acceptable if you're trying to give each number/interval a place in the scale. Otherwise, nahhh.

Also, if I were a hired gun that was supposed to sight read a chart I wouldn't want to see an augmented third or #3 anywhere. I'd rather see a perfect fourth because it's easier to read that way.
Last edited by a.chapmanist at Nov 2, 2013,
#16
Quote by a.chapmanist
If our root is C and we play an E# against it that will not sound like a third. It will sound like a fourth because it is one of course. Sonically they sound the same the difference is in what you call it. If I had a scale that looked like this: 1 2 #3 #4 5 6 7 8 then augmented third would be acceptable if you're trying to give each number/interval a place in the scale. Otherwise, nahhh.

Also, if I were a hired gun that was supposed to sight read a chart I wouldn't want to see an augmented third or #3 anywhere. I'd rather see a perfect fourth because it's easier to read that way.


That's why hired guns don't do music theory. While they may sound the same (enharmonic equivalent), they are different notes as far as key and order of sharps are concerned.

Someone back me up on this. I probably sound like a complete jackass if I'm doing this wrong.
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Last edited by jjfeu662 at Nov 2, 2013,
#17
Quote by a.chapmanist
The diminished seventh makes sense for the sake of a full diminished seventh chord or something like that, but I wouldn't call a C double sharp in A minor an augmented third if I can just call it a perfect fourth.


I fully agree, if we are just talking plain intervals with no context i would never use the terms of augmented thirds or diminished sevenths. But it has to do with context. Some notated pieces contain a double sharp C in the key of Am, and then i can't call it a fourth cause in the context it is a third. Even if it is the enharmonic equivalent of a perfect fourth.
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#18
I can totally see it but I want to see it! Give me a song to check out that has it and I'll look up the chart for it.
#19
Quote by jjfeu662
That's why hired guns don't do music theory. While they may sound the same (enharmonic equivalent), they are different notes as far as key and order of sharps are concerned.

Someone back me up on this. I probably sound like a complete jackass if I'm doing this wrong.


A lot of hired guns know music theory. Otherwise they'd be ****ed, trust me.
#20
Quote by a.chapmanist
If we're gonna get technical here then there's no such thing as a major fourth or minor fifth or major fifth. "Technically" they're called perfect fourth, diminished fifth and perfect fifth. Just an fyi.

I understand this. I sort of figured that TS wasn't really advanced enough in his music theory to get that though. No sense in confusing the poor guy.

Quote by jjfeu662
If I were to offer an alternate way of writing it as I, iii, IV, v, V, vii, VII, would I be correct? Or is my AP Theory class a joke and I shouldn't take it seriously?

I'm not sure why you would write out single notes as that, but I suppose you could. Usually, people use that kind of notation to denote chords.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Nov 3, 2013,