Page 1 of 2
#1
Ive just written a melody and these are the notes i play:
B C# D E G A B.

I know this scale derives from the B minor scale, which would be:
B C# D E F# G A B

Now I learned that you dont need to play all of the notes of a scale in order to play in the key of that scale.
Using that logic and staying close to the formula, my song is in B-minor right?
#2
Quote by ArtistLion
Ive just written a melody and these are the notes i play:
B C# D E G A B.

I know this scale derives from the B minor scale, which would be:
B C# D E F# G A B

Now I learned that you dont need to play all of the notes of a scale in order to play in the key of that scale.
Using that logic and staying close to the formula, my song is in B-minor right?



Might be, might not. Can you record yourself playing the song, and post it? Right now all we can do is guess and argue amongst ourselves, which honestly won't help you much.
#4
Quote by ArtistLion
Ive just written a melody and these are the notes i play:
B C# D E G A B.

I know this scale derives from the B minor scale, which would be:
B C# D E F# G A B

Now I learned that you dont need to play all of the notes of a scale in order to play in the key of that scale.
Using that logic and staying close to the formula, my song is in B-minor right?


That melody is just in one measure of your song? What are the chords of the song?

That also could be the notes of the major relative to B min scale that it would be D major, so as you see it depends on differents things in what key is your song.
#5
Quote by ArtistLion
Ive just written a melody and these are the notes i play:
B C# D E G A B.

I know this scale derives from the B minor scale, which would be:
B C# D E F# G A B

Now I learned that you dont need to play all of the notes of a scale in order to play in the key of that scale.
Using that logic and staying close to the formula, my song is in B-minor right?

What chords are you playing? Is your chord progression in the key of Bminor? If so, yes. If not, then it's in whatever key the chord progression is in.
#6
Hmm Im currently transposing it higher on the neck. There is one lower part i need to figure out, then ill try to record it.
#8
Quote by Zordon
I say yes.

I say there's not enough information yet to determine that.

@TS:
Can't you just type out your basic chord progressions?
#9
It's either Bm or D, that much we know... The fact that he started his list with B means his melody probably started with B, a good indication (not always) of the tonic. What note does your melody end on?
#10
It's in the key of Dmaj.

The Bmin scale is not a key, it's a scale.

There's no leading tone for Bminor in that scale, which is A#. So, it's in Dmaj.
#11
Quote by Deadds
It's in the key of Dmaj.
Not necessarily.

Quote by Deadds
The Bmin scale is not a key, it's a scale.
No, B minor is a key and a scale. (And also a chord ).

Quote by Deadds
There's no leading tone for Bminor in that scale, which is A#. So, it's in Dmaj.
No again. The key of B minor's "leading tone", is A!

The SCALE, "B harmonic minor" has A# as the leading tone.

But, whereas B (natural) minor IS a key, "B harmonic minor", is a scale, NOT a key.

So, the "V" chord in the key B minor is F#m. You would substitute F# (major), when using the B harmonic minor scale.

(A natural is the 3rd of F#m, While A# is the 3rd of F# (major))
Last edited by Captaincranky at Nov 9, 2013,
#12
Quote by Deadds
It's in the key of Dmaj.

The Bmin scale is not a key, it's a scale.

There's no leading tone for Bminor in that scale, which is A#. So, it's in Dmaj.

WTF?

B minor is definitely a key. You can say that a song is in a minor key. Have you never heard of it (minor song sounds "sad" and major song sounds "happy" - it's a stupid generalization though)? And a song can be in minor without having the leading tone. The leading tone just makes the resolution stronger.

It's all about the resolution - your song is in a minor key if the tonic is a minor chord. And how to know what the tonic is? Use your ears. There are lots of songs in minor key.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#13
Quote by Captaincranky
No, B minor is a key...


Quote by MaggaraMarine
B minor is definitely a key


Yes you guys are both correct. Just for a bit of background (as far as I understand) as to why Deadds and quite a few more people will be taking this approach comes from a theory proposed by Rick Graham.

Obviously I was not there at the development of this theory but I'm going to guess it goes like this.

###ALANHB DOES NOT ENDORSE THIS APPROACH###

So we have the idea that modes are derived from the major scale. So there's all the intervals and stuff you can line up with the scale, starting on different notes etc. You get the idea.

If I have a progression in C, I play the D dorian scale over it. This will just be the notes of C major because it's derived from C. I'm not going to argue any benefits of this approach here.

Ok now we have a piece in D minor, and we play the D dorian scale over it. As we are playing D dorian over it we regard the D minor as the ii chord in the key of C major meaning that our piece in D minor is actually in C major.

And now one step further, if we have a song in B minor and we play the B aeolian scale over it we regard the B minor chord as the vii in the key of D major, so the key is D major.

As a result there can never be a minor key as it will always be aoelian which is a mode of the major scale, which is the key.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#14
Quote by AlanHB
Yes you guys are both correct. Just for a bit of background (as far as I understand) as to why Deadds and quite a few more people will be taking this approach comes from a theory proposed by Rick Graham.

Obviously I was not there at the development of this theory but I'm going to guess it goes like this.

###ALANHB DOES NOT ENDORSE THIS APPROACH###

So we have the idea that modes are derived from the major scale. So there's all the intervals and stuff you can line up with the scale, starting on different notes etc. You get the idea.

If I have a progression in C, I play the D dorian scale over it. This will just be the notes of C major because it's derived from C. I'm not going to argue any benefits of this approach here.

Ok now we have a piece in D minor, and we play the D dorian scale over it. As we are playing D dorian over it we regard the D minor as the ii chord in the key of C major meaning that our piece in D minor is actually in C major.

And now one step further, if we have a song in B minor and we play the B aeolian scale over it we regard the B minor chord as the vii in the key of D major, so the key is D major.

As a result there can never be a minor key as it will always be aoelian which is a mode of the major scale, which is the key.

Kind of stupid because minor and major keys sound different - they have different key centers. Also how would people explain a piece that uses a non diatonic chord progression like Am-C-D-F? It fits no major scale so is it atonal, lol?
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#15
^^^ To be honest I don't know whether the theory addresses situations where you are not playing over the chords.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#16
Quote by AlanHB
Yes you guys are both correct. Just for a bit of background (as far as I understand) as to why Deadds and quite a few more people will be taking this approach comes from a theory proposed by Rick Graham.

Obviously I was not there at the development of this theory but I'm going to guess it goes like this.

###ALANHB DOES NOT ENDORSE THIS APPROACH###

So we have the idea that modes are derived from the major scale. So there's all the intervals and stuff you can line up with the scale, starting on different notes etc. You get the idea.

If I have a progression in C, I play the D dorian scale over it. This will just be the notes of C major because it's derived from C. I'm not going to argue any benefits of this approach here.

Ok now we have a piece in D minor, and we play the D dorian scale over it. As we are playing D dorian over it we regard the D minor as the ii chord in the key of C major meaning that our piece in D minor is actually in C major.

And now one step further, if we have a song in B minor and we play the B aeolian scale over it we regard the B minor chord as the vii in the key of D major, so the key is D major.

As a result there can never be a minor key as it will always be aoelian which is a mode of the major scale, which is the key.


WHY!? God, that's so stupid it hurt. I don't know who Rick Graham is, but he should not be allowed to teach music.
#17
Quote by AlanHB
Yes you guys are both correct. Just for a bit of background (as far as I understand) as to why Deadds and quite a few more people will be taking this approach comes from a theory proposed by Rick Graham.

###ALANHB DOES NOT ENDORSE THIS APPROACH###

*horrendous mess of crap resembling a cro-magnon man's attempt at explaining music ensues*

is this the rick graham from youtube? he's an excellent player but holy christ what did i just read
#18
Quote by :-D
is this the rick graham from youtube? he's an excellent player but holy christ what did i just read


Yes.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#19
Yeah verily, I stand on the brink of total enlightenment, and bask in the glow of wisdom.

For now that I knoweth, there existeth not so vile a work of Beelzebub's hand as a minor key, I will hereafter devoteth my life to bringing happiness and major joy, to all the devil's chord progressions, which endeth on a disgraced and flattened third.

I think, "The House of The Rising Sun", would be a good place to start, what thinkest thou?
Last edited by Captaincranky at Nov 9, 2013,
#20
Quote by Captaincranky

No again. The key of B minor's "leading tone", is A!

No, the subtonic of B minor is A. The leading tone is specifically a semitone below the tonic (B-C, D#-E, G#-A, etc.).
Join the 7 String Legion!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Messiaen is Magical


Official Approval
This message has been approved by:

Mister A.J.
Head of the Department of Redundancy Department
Mister A.J.
#21
Quote by Mister A.J.
No, the subtonic of B minor is A. The leading tone is specifically a semitone below the tonic (B-C, D#-E, G#-A, etc.).
Which is why I put, "leading tone" inside quotation marks.

But yeah, that probably deserved your explanation....
Last edited by Captaincranky at Nov 9, 2013,
#22
Quote by MaggaraMarine
WTF?

B minor is definitely a key. You can say that a song is in a minor key. Have you never heard of it (minor song sounds "sad" and major song sounds "happy" - it's a stupid generalization though)? And a song can be in minor without having the leading tone. The leading tone just makes the resolution stronger.

It's all about the resolution - your song is in a minor key if the tonic is a minor chord. And how to know what the tonic is? Use your ears. There are lots of songs in minor key.


Bminor is a key when it's leading tone is present(A#). The note A natural is not a leading tone, even if you put it in parenthesis.

Without the A# the 5 chord would be a minor chord(v7) and not a dominant chord(V7).

Bminor as a scale does not have an A#, which is why it's just called a scale.

You don't need a tonic chord to provide a key center. The Dominant V creates that key center because is has the tritone that wants to resolve towards it's tonic.
#23
Quote by Deadds
Bminor is a key when it's leading tone is present(A#). The note A natural is not a leading tone, even if you put it in parenthesis.

Without the A# the 5 chord would be a minor chord(v7) and not a dominant chord(V7).

Bminor as a scale does not have an A#, which is why it's just called a scale.

You don't need a tonic chord to provide a key center. The Dominant V creates that key center because is has the tritone that wants to resolve towards it's tonic.


Cool stuff mate. What happens if it's just droning a B minor chord?

If I understand you correctly it wouldn't be a key because there would be no A#, but it also wouldn't be in the key of D because there is no dominant present.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#24
Quote by AlanHB
Cool stuff mate. What happens if it's just droning a B minor chord?

If I understand you correctly it wouldn't be a key because there would be no A#, but it also wouldn't be in the key of D because there is no dominant present.


Correct. no V, no key. That Bminor chord could be a ii, iii, or vi of major keys or a i, iv, or minor v of minor keys.

with that droning Bmin chord you could play in all those keys and it wouldn't sound bad.
#25
So basically its in all keys but none at the same time.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#26
What if the chord progression was for example A-C#m-F#m? There's no V chords there so is it in no key either?

Also, if there's no chords, you can still be in a key. For example a melody sounds like it's in major or minor without the chords in the background. You can still tell it by just listening to it.

Some songs only have one chord. We are not talking about improvisation, we are talking about songs. So if the one chord of the song was B minor, the song would use B minor scale over it. Some children's songs have just one chord for example. Same with some folk songs.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Nov 10, 2013,
#27
Quote by Deadds
Correct. no V, no key. That Bminor chord could be a ii, iii, or vi of major keys or a i, iv, or minor v of minor keys.

with that droning Bmin chord you could play in all those keys and it wouldn't sound bad.
Adding this to what you've already "enlightened" us with, regarding the "fact" the "B minor isn't a key" I can only conclude that one of us has learned music from a radical spur offshoot of traditional theory. Or one of us is trolling.

So, I'm just going to continue to believe that Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Oo, That Smell", is in A minor, in spite of the fact that there are only two chords, Am & F, and not an E major to be found anywhere, despite what further input I receive to the contrary, and you can go on thinking whatever you like.

I propose that if all we're going to do is drone a B minor chord, then we call TS's melody, "modal", and let the contention continue from there.

That should provide the framework for what we can do with the now pending pages 3, 4, 5, & 6, of what should have been a reasonably simple question.

The answer to which is probably, "who knows", or, "who cares", until TS writes down the chords and gets back to us.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Nov 10, 2013,
#28
Quote by MaggaraMarine
What if the chord progression was for example A-C#m-F#m? There's no V chords there so is it in no key either?

Also, if there's no chords, you can still be in a key. For example a melody sounds like it's in major or minor without the chords in the background. You can still tell it by just listening to it.


Exactly. Which is why the TS's notes are in the Dmaj scale of the KEY of Dmaj. Once we hear the leading tone of Bminor, then we can say that's he's in the key of Bminor.

Quote by MaggaraMarine
Some songs only have one chord. We are not talking about improvisation, we are talking about songs. So if the one chord of the song was B minor, the song would use B minor scale over it. Some children's songs have just one chord for example. Same with some folk songs.


They are modal, not tonal. There's nothing wrong with that, but the TS was looking for the key to his piece. Keys are associated with Tonal music.

Quote by Captaincranky
Adding this to what you've already "enlightened" us with, regarding the "fact" the "B minor isn't a key" I can only conclude that one of us has learned music from a radical spur offshoot of traditional theory. Or one of us is trolling.

So, I'm just going to continue to believe that Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Oo, That Smell", is in A minor, in spite of the fact that there are only two chords, Am & F, and not an E major to be found anywhere, despite what further input I receive to the contrary, and you can go on thinking whatever you like.

I propose that if all we're going to do is drone a B minor chord, then we call TS's melody, "modal", and let the contention continue from there.

That should provide the framework for what we can do with the now pending pages 3, 4, 5, & 6, of what should have been a reasonably simple question.

The answer to which is probably, "who knows", or, "who cares", until TS writes down the chords and gets back to us.


You seem to be reading what you want to please your ego. come back when you finish reading my post.

Am & Fmaj you say? Cmaj or Aminor? It's modal, who cares what key it's in.
#29
Quote by Deadds
Exactly. Which is why the TS's notes are in the Dmaj scale of the KEY of Dmaj. Once we hear the leading tone of Bminor, then we can say that's he's in the key of Bminor.
You've had a least two people other than myself explain that you don't have to have an A# "leading tone", to confirm the KEY of B minor.

Nobody is disputing that the notes of B minor are the same as D major. Key is based on resolution.


Quote by Deadds
You seem to be reading what you want to please your ego. come back when you finish reading my post.

Am & Fmaj you say? Cmaj or Aminor? It's modal, who cares what key it's in.
It always takes two egos to start and continue a "lively dialog", and I sincerely doubt that you've checked yours at the door. Oh, I did read your posts.

You've single handedly concluded that B minor is not a key without a "natural 7th". And many here differ with you on that point.

However, I am inclined to accept that some music is modal, or at the very least retains the vestiges of some modal heritage. Which is, a lot more than you'll get from many others. (Not judging, just saying).
#30
Quote by Captaincranky
You've had a least two people other than myself explain that you don't have to have an A# "leading tone", to confirm the KEY of B minor.

Nobody is disputing that the notes of B minor are the same as D major.


Correction, the Bminor scale has the same notes as the Dmajor scale. The Key of Bminor is not the same as the key of Dmajor.

Quote by Captaincranky
Key is based on resolution.


Bach resolves to a major chord in minor pieces. I guess we should change all the names of his pieces to fit with the last chord his V resolved to.

Quote by Captaincranky
You've single handedly concluded that B minor is not a key without a "natural 7th". And many here differ with you on that point.


What the hell is a natural 7th? Don't talk about theory if you can't even name a simple interval from the root.
#31
Quote by Deadds
...[ ]...What the hell is a natural 7th? Don't talk about theory if you can't even name a simple interval from the root.
A "natural 7th" is the note a semitone below the tonic note (8va) of a major key-slash-scale. It's usually stated as a "7th"! But in this case, since you insist a minor key has to have a "leading tone", I gave you name for it.

I've never seen any literature on musical scales calling shit a "leading tone", it's always marked as a "7th". "Leading tone is the function, and seventh is its name-O!

You can sing that last line to, "and bingo was his name-O"!

A "flat 7th" is a whole tone below the tonic of a major key, again 8va.
#32
Intervals and scale tones are different things.

The 7th tone of the key of Dmaj is C#.

You are talking about the Major 7th above the root. Saying natural 7th is telling the player to play a C natural since its normally a C# in Dmaj.
#33
Quote by Deadds
Bach resolves to a major chord in minor pieces. I guess we should change all the names of his pieces to fit with the last chord his V resolved to.

No. No, he doesn't. Bach used cadences, just like any respectable classical composer. Depending on the cadence (a cadence that ends on the V chord is a Half-Cadence, btw), it can end on different chords. However, only a perfect authentic cadence (a cadence that ends on I, where the bass note is also the root of the I chord) is considered resolved (read: "at home"). The I chord is ALWAYS the chord that the key resolves to. A piece may or may not be considered "resolved" at the end of said piece.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Nov 10, 2013,
#34
Quote by Deadds
Intervals and scale tones are different things.

The 7th tone of the key of Dmaj is C#.

You are talking about the Major 7th above the root. Saying natural 7th is telling the player to play a C natural since its normally a C# in Dmaj.
Please stop with the nonsense. You're the one running your yap claiming you need a "leading tone" to verify the KEY of B minor, and that would make A# the 7th of B minor. You're talking in circles.

So, l if you got your "leading tone" that would make the KEY B minor, (by your own standards), and that would make A# the seventh of B minor. Nobody was talking about D major. The relationship of the sevenths is identical, but they are different notes.

So, that makes C# the 7th of D major, and A# the 7th of B minor, assuming we're using the harmonic minor scale.
#35
Deadds, the scale degrees are 1, b2, 2, b3, 3, 4, b5, 5, b6, 6, b7 and 7 regardless of the key. "1" means the tonic and the other numbers are the interval between the note and the tonic. Every scale degree that has a "b" in front of it means there's a minor (or diminished if we are talking about fourths or fifths) interval between the note and the tonic.

You can use notes outside of the scale and still be in the same key. For example how would you analyze this progression: A-C-D-A? It fits no scale but it's still in a key (also this progression isn't even that unusual). You need to listen to the progression and hear which of the chords feels like "home". Also analyze The House of the Rising Sun progression - Am-C-D-F. Again that fits no scale but it's definitely in a key.

And you are right, the key of B minor and D major are different. And that's because of the chord they resolve to. B minor resolves to B minor and D major resolves to D major. So simple. And you can resolve to D major or B minor chord without any V chords. Actually pop music doesn't use that much V-I or V-i progressions. Yes, there are V chords in them but they are kind of used differently than in classical music - in classical you pretty much always have the tonic after the dominant. But not in pop. The chord after the V is usually IV or vi in pop music (those are the most usual).

May I ask how you learned theory?
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#36
Quote by MaggaraMarine
You need to listen to the progression and hear which of the chords feels like "home". Also analyze The House of the Rising Sun progression - Am-C-D-F. Again that fits no scale but it's definitely in a key.


I've always seen that written in Em, with the same progression. Interestingly enough, that song actually DOES use the harmonic minor scale, and after the Am, C, D, F segment, you would be playing, Am, E(b7), Am E(b7)....resolve to Am.

But yeah, D major is, (ostensibly), "out of key".

The G# of E major indeed provides "a leading tone" back to A minor. Try adding a b6 to the E7, which blends the resolution a bit. (Hint, C natural).

Putting "House" into E minor, you come up with B7 to Em. Using open chord voices, it's tough to find a stronger resolution. B7 open, has really distinctive sound. Listen for it in Joan Baez', "Diamonds & Rust" also. (Capo on 1st fret).
Last edited by Captaincranky at Nov 10, 2013,
#37
Lol fascinating how so many people here have false information about music theory, c'mon guys at least try to verify your shit.
#38
Quote by Zordon
Lol fascinating how so many people here have false information about music theory, c'mon guys at least try to verify your shit.
And this, "insight" is supposed to help how?

Any fool can kick back and say everybody else is wrong..... But that doesn't move the conversation forward to an enlightened state, now does it?
Last edited by Captaincranky at Nov 11, 2013,
#39
Quote by Zordon
Lol fascinating how so many people here have false information about music theory, c'mon guys at least try to verify your shit.

Quote by Zordon
I say yes.

yeah we need more crack analysis like that post, then we'd really have something going
#40
Quote by Deadds
Correct. no V, no key. That Bminor chord could be a ii, iii, or vi of major keys or a i, iv, or minor v of minor keys.

with that droning Bmin chord you could play in all those keys and it wouldn't sound bad.



So if you have a progression like say a I - IV - I - IV in C Major, it's not really in C Major because there is no V chord?

Where'd you get that idea?


Quote by Zordon
Lol fascinating how so many people here have false information about music theory, c'mon guys at least try to verify your shit.



Beginner + the internet = instant expert apparently
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 11, 2013,
Page 1 of 2