Page 1 of 3
#1
Hello there,

I recently got kicked out of my band, as a drummer and have no musical outlet.
Ever since I've been musically aware I have had riffs, symphonies of my own running through my head. I've struggled to express them, since I don't know how to play anything except for drums. I saw Guthrie Govan a few weeks ago with Steven Wilson (my favourite musician of all time), and basically I am inspired to play guitar.

edit: Here's me playing drums: /watch?v=aVkN9z8ErSE

As I am spending quite a lot of time learning a language each day, I feel adding an hour of guitar practice will be fine too. One hour a day split into 30 minute sessions (want to keep focused), should do fine I guess.

The trouble is that I have no clue about which is the best method or way to go about learning. With my language learning I work through a method each day and gradually get better, with patience. I'd like to take this approach with guitar as well.


What is a solid guitar method that I can work through for an hour each day, that will give me results? It needs to be something I can keep track of so that I am not wasting my time. Ideally I'd ask for something that is aimed at prog rock, but that isn't going to happen :P


Thanks in advance for advice!
Last edited by bluceree201 at Nov 6, 2013,
#2
So, do you know anything about playing the guitar? If not, start with basic open chords and learn to switch between them fast. Learn some songs that use basic chords.

Also, if you have riffs and songs in your head, you don't need to be able to play them on guitar. You could just record yourself singing those ideas. Or then get a software that can play back what you write (for example Tux Guitar or Musescore - they are both free). It may be a pain in the ass to try writing what's in your head if you know nothing about notation, though.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#3
Quote by bluceree201
Hello there,

I recently got kicked out of my band, as a drummer and have no musical outlet.
Ever since I've been musically aware I have had riffs, symphonies of my own running through my head. I've struggled to express them, since I don't know how to play anything except for drums. I saw Guthrie Govan a few weeks ago with Steven Wilson (my favourite musician of all time), and basically I am inspired to play guitar.

edit: Here's me playing drums: /watch?v=aVkN9z8ErSE

As I am spending quite a lot of time learning a language each day, I feel adding an hour of guitar practice will be fine too. One hour a day split into 30 minute sessions (want to keep focused), should do fine I guess.

The trouble is that I have no clue about which is the best method or way to go about learning. With my language learning I work through a method each day and gradually get better, with patience. I'd like to take this approach with guitar as well.


What is a solid guitar method that I can work through for an hour each day, that will give me results? It needs to be something I can keep track of so that I am not wasting my time. Ideally I'd ask for something that is aimed at prog rock, but that isn't going to happen :P


Thanks in advance for advice!



Go on justguitar.com and follow the beginners course that's where I learned how to play. He's a great guitar teacher if not the best.
#4
Quote by MaggaraMarine
So, do you know anything about playing the guitar? If not, start with basic open chords and learn to switch between them fast. Learn some songs that use basic chords.

Also, if you have riffs and songs in your head, you don't need to be able to play them on guitar. You could just record yourself singing those ideas. Or then get a software that can play back what you write (for example Tux Guitar or Musescore - they are both free). It may be a pain in the ass to try writing what's in your head if you know nothing about notation, though.



I know a few things, like using the very tip of your finger to produce a note, and keeping your thumb on the back of the neck. I can alternate pick and play a few scales I remembered, also some songs, but that's really about it. I like this suggestion for programs, thanks.
#5
Quote by Black_devils
Go on justguitar.com and follow the beginners course that's where I learned how to play. He's a great guitar teacher if not the best.



A friend suggested for me to go there too. I'm inclined to use a method from a book as well, but I don't know which is the best. I would not be closed to the idea of learning Jazz or Classical guitar, if there are some good methods (I actually find it much more comfortable to use classical guitar position).
#6
Quote by bluceree201
A friend suggested for me to go there too. I'm inclined to use a method from a book as well, but I don't know which is the best. I would not be closed to the idea of learning Jazz or Classical guitar, if there are some good methods (I actually find it much more comfortable to use classical guitar position).


Dude i'm telling you follow his course and you will not regret it.
#7
Quote by Black_devils
Dude i'm telling you follow his course and you will not regret it.


Maybe I'll do 30 minutes of Justin guitar lessons and 30 minutes from a method to see how a go... I'll do a little more research.
#8
20 minutes of warmups and technique, 40 minutes of music. Use a metronome and a timer.
#9
Quote by bluceree201
I know a few things, like using the very tip of your finger to produce a note, and keeping your thumb on the back of the neck.


That's only really true for classical playing (don't quote me on that; I don't play classical) and for chord-type stuff on electric (and acoustic playing too, i suppose; again, don't quote me, i play electric ). For most electric lead playing (at least, bluesier styles with a lot of bends and vibrato) you're playing with your thumb round the neck to be used as a pivot to help with bends, and more with the flat of your fingers so you can get enough purchase on the strings to bend and do vibrato easily.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#10
Classical technique IS guitar technique. You have to adapt a bit for the slightly different instrument and different music, but the classical approach to technique is the standard.

Classical players might look very different playing, but that's because the music is technically demanding, and EVERY note matters. There's no "just feeling it" in classical music - you have to know exactly what's happening at all times. You have to put maximum technique into every movement, or the music just sounds bad.

Rock is not nearly as demanding. Or rather, most rock players are not demanding of themselves, so the music isn't not usually very difficult. Rhythm guitar parts in rock are often just a reinforcement of the bass line. Frequent use of muting also reduces the need for nuance from the left hand.

If you listen to any of the seriously good rock players, though, you'll hear they put just as much technique and expression as you'd hear in a classical piece (Mark Knopfler, Brian May, Steve Vai, Derek Trucks).

The basic principles of guitar technique are the same for classical and electric. Yes, fingertips are ideal, as is thumb on the back of the neck. But the bigger point is relaxation - being relaxed only sounds good if you use good technique. Most rock is so easy you don't need to use good technique to get a passing sound, but as soon as you do something that requires real expression or dexterity, you have to use efficient, precise technique.
#11
Quote by cdgraves
Classical technique IS guitar technique. You have to adapt a bit for the slightly different instrument and different music, but the classical approach to technique is the standard.

Classical players might look very different playing, but that's because the music is technically demanding, and EVERY note matters. There's no "just feeling it" in classical music - you have to know exactly what's happening at all times. You have to put maximum technique into every movement, or the music just sounds bad.

Rock is not nearly as demanding. Or rather, most rock players are not demanding of themselves, so the music isn't not usually very difficult. Rhythm guitar parts in rock are often just a reinforcement of the bass line. Frequent use of muting also reduces the need for nuance from the left hand.

If you listen to any of the seriously good rock players, though, you'll hear they put just as much technique and expression as you'd hear in a classical piece (Mark Knopfler, Brian May, Steve Vai, Derek Trucks).

The basic principles of guitar technique are the same for classical and electric. Yes, fingertips are ideal, as is thumb on the back of the neck. But the bigger point is relaxation - being relaxed only sounds good if you use good technique. Most rock is so easy you don't need to use good technique to get a passing sound, but as soon as you do something that requires real expression or dexterity, you have to use efficient, precise technique.



This makes the most sense to me. Although generally with drumming, whichever technique you use to achieve the sound that you want is the correct technique. I'm inclined to buy this: http://www.fishpond.com.au/Books/Mickey-Bakers-Complete-Course-Jazz-Guitar-Mickey-Baker-Music-Sales-Corporation-Manufactured-By/9780825652806

Maybe 30 mins of this and 30 mins of justin guitar will provide a nice balance, but I'm also open to buying a nylon stringed guitar and learning classical, if it's not going to be discouraging. Note I still want to play guitar for fun each day, this hour is just supposed to be only for focusing on honing the skill. I can split it into 15 minute or 30 minute sessions to make sure I'm not burning myself out too!
#12
Quote by cdgraves
Classical technique IS guitar technique. You have to adapt a bit for the slightly different instrument and different music, but the classical approach to technique is the standard.

Classical players might look very different playing, but that's because the music is technically demanding, and EVERY note matters. There's no "just feeling it" in classical music - you have to know exactly what's happening at all times. You have to put maximum technique into every movement, or the music just sounds bad.

Rock is not nearly as demanding. Or rather, most rock players are not demanding of themselves, so the music isn't not usually very difficult. Rhythm guitar parts in rock are often just a reinforcement of the bass line. Frequent use of muting also reduces the need for nuance from the left hand.

If you listen to any of the seriously good rock players, though, you'll hear they put just as much technique and expression as you'd hear in a classical piece (Mark Knopfler, Brian May, Steve Vai, Derek Trucks).

The basic principles of guitar technique are the same for classical and electric. Yes, fingertips are ideal, as is thumb on the back of the neck. But the bigger point is relaxation - being relaxed only sounds good if you use good technique. Most rock is so easy you don't need to use good technique to get a passing sound, but as soon as you do something that requires real expression or dexterity, you have to use efficient, precise technique.


I never say anything about classical, because I don't play classical. I also like classical music (I just don't play it on guitar).

But you need to play rock "differently", for want of a better word, or it doesn't sound right (in the same way that playing classical with rock technique wouldn't sound right).

Yes, there's a lot of overlap. And some techniques, even on electric, work best with classical technique, as you said.

But some other techniques you need to play differently. Vibrato, for example. The vast majority of rock (and blues, and metal) lead players play with their thumb around the neck, because it facilitates good (rock) vibrato and bending. That's not "bad technique", it's "different technique".

There's a lot of muting in rock, for example, because if you're playing at even moderately high gain, you get a shedload of noise. that's not bad technique, it's the nature of the beast.

It'd be like saying motorbikers suck because they have bad pedal technique- they don't need pedal technique like bicyclists do.

you mentioned steve vai.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDZuNM3HmU4

note thumb around the neck when he's doing bends and vibrato. Which is what I said. Even in some of the faster, shreddier passages he still has his thumb over the neck.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Nov 8, 2013,
#13
Quote by bluceree201
Hello there,

I recently got kicked out of my band, as a drummer and have no musical outlet.
Ever since I've been musically aware I have had riffs, symphonies of my own running through my head. I've struggled to express them, since I don't know how to play anything except for drums. I saw Guthrie Govan a few weeks ago with Steven Wilson (my favourite musician of all time), and basically I am inspired to play guitar.

edit: Here's me playing drums: /watch?v=aVkN9z8ErSE

As I am spending quite a lot of time learning a language each day, I feel adding an hour of guitar practice will be fine too. One hour a day split into 30 minute sessions (want to keep focused), should do fine I guess.

The trouble is that I have no clue about which is the best method or way to go about learning. With my language learning I work through a method each day and gradually get better, with patience. I'd like to take this approach with guitar as well.


What is a solid guitar method that I can work through for an hour each day, that will give me results? It needs to be something I can keep track of so that I am not wasting my time. Ideally I'd ask for something that is aimed at prog rock, but that isn't going to happen :P


Thanks in advance for advice!


well, you have to be willing to be a beginner for awhile. Try a method book to get started and/or learn some easy chords .... practice switching.... strumming, and some EASY songs.
Classic rock music has some decent material to get going on chords/strumming.
#14
Quote by Dave_Mc
I never say anything about classical, because I don't play classical. I also like classical music (I just don't play it on guitar).

But you need to play rock "differently", for want of a better word, or it doesn't sound right (in the same way that playing classical with rock technique wouldn't sound right).

Yes, there's a lot of overlap. And some techniques, even on electric, work best with classical technique, as you said.

But some other techniques you need to play differently. Vibrato, for example. The vast majority of rock (and blues, and metal) lead players play with their thumb around the neck, because it facilitates good (rock) vibrato and bending. That's not "bad technique", it's "different technique".

There's a lot of muting in rock, for example, because if you're playing at even moderately high gain, you get a shedload of noise. that's not bad technique, it's the nature of the beast.

It'd be like saying motorbikers suck because they have bad pedal technique- they don't need pedal technique like bicyclists do.

you mentioned steve vai.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDZuNM3HmU4

note thumb around the neck when he's doing bends and vibrato. Which is what I said. Even in some of the faster, shreddier passages he still has his thumb over the neck.


What makes the vibrato different from using a thumbs on back of the neck position? I think it's better to use a thumbs on the back(not around) as it places the hand in a better anatomical position for the fingers and allows for easier position shifting on the vertical plane(for me at least). And if you have greater control of your fingers then it makes sense that you may create a suitable vibrato style for the given situation.
#15
Quote by PunchSlap
What makes the vibrato different from using a thumbs on back of the neck position?


Vibrato with a low thumb tends to be done by moving side to side on a string, as opposed to moving it up and down like you would with the thumb on top of the neck. Having the thumb over the neck gives your hand support and keeps your wrist in a more neutral position.

The low thumb / side to side vibrato is most often found in classical guitar, whereas the up and down vibrato technique is associated with rock and blues playing (and metal and everything else spawned by blues/rock). As Dave_MC said, there is overlap. You'll see some rock guys using classical technique.


Quote by PunchSlap

I think it's better to use a thumbs on the back(not around) as it places the hand in a better anatomical position for the fingers and allows for easier position shifting on the vertical plane(for me at least). And if you have greater control of your fingers then it makes sense that you may create a suitable vibrato style for the given situation.


it's cool to have an opinion, but looking at common practice will show you that most experienced guitarists disagree, as you'll see they've chosen to vibrato with their thumb over the neck. The fact that it's typical should tell you something. Also, It's important to realize that when employing vibrato, guitarist don't use their fingers as you implied, but rather shake the entire hand. The fingers are along for the ride, holding down the desired note, and blocking the unwanted strings. Looking at a majority of players, you will find that there are very few exceptions to this.


It's important not to make up your mind about something based on ideals alone. Experience and common sense will serve you much better.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 9, 2013,
#16
^

Quote by PunchSlap
What makes the vibrato different from using a thumbs on back of the neck position? I think it's better to use a thumbs on the back(not around) as it places the hand in a better anatomical position for the fingers and allows for easier position shifting on the vertical plane(for me at least). And if you have greater control of your fingers then it makes sense that you may create a suitable vibrato style for the given situation.


Nah you have far better control with your thumb around the neck for (rock-style i.e. perpendicular to the string) vibrato. And as GuitarMunky correctly says, you're not vibratoing with your fingers, you're vibratoing with your wrist.

Virtually every rock/blues/metal electric guitarist who has good (rock-style) vibrato does it that way. There's a reason for that.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#17
Quote by GuitarMunky
Vibrato with a low thumb tends to be done by moving side to side on a string, as opposed to moving it up and down like you would with the thumb on top of the neck. Having the thumb over the neck gives your hand support and keeps your wrist in a more neutral position.

The low thumb / side to side vibrato is most often found in classical guitar, whereas the up and down vibrato technique is associated with rock and blues playing (and metal and everything else spawned by blues/rock). As Dave_MC said, there is overlap. You'll see some rock guys using classical technique.


it's cool to have an opinion, but looking at common practice will show you that most experienced guitarists disagree, as you'll see they've chosen to vibrato with their thumb over the neck. The fact that it's typical should tell you something. Also, It's important to realize that when employing vibrato, guitarist don't use their fingers as you implied, but rather shake the entire hand. The fingers are along for the ride, holding down the desired note, and blocking the unwanted strings. Looking at a majority of players, you will find that there are very few exceptions to this.


It's important not to make up your mind about something based on ideals alone. Experience and common sense will serve you much better.


I'll just split up my responses in paragraphs.

1 and 2. I assume that low thumb=thumb behind neck. I am personally able to manipulate the string with ease.
Yes, it may put the wrist in a more neutral position, that doesn't mean it's better though. I guess it makes no significant difference at a comfortable playing speed or passage; but thought was if you happen to get closer to your limit in terms of just that then it might be better to still have the fingers(and hands and wrist) in a more optimal position. For me at least, as I said before, a low thumb makes position shifting easier and puts the fingers in a better anatomical position.

3. Many things are typical, still doesn't mean it's right. The guitar community isn't really that analytical and academic, as opposed to the piano community at least.
As for the stiff vs moving finger thing, I(personally), playing with a low thumb(thumb behind neck) mute the strings below my chosen string of bending with my index, regardless of what finger I bend with. isn't it the same with a thumbs around bend?

Just noting: I'm not trying to make me look like some guitar guru or anything, these are just some thoughts and reflections I've had, I thought I could just share them for the sake of it

Agreed!
#18
Quote by Dave_Mc
^


Nah you have far better control with your thumb around the neck for (rock-style i.e. perpendicular to the string) vibrato. And as GuitarMunky correctly says, you're not vibratoing with your fingers, you're vibratoing with your wrist.

Virtually every rock/blues/metal electric guitarist who has good (rock-style) vibrato does it that way. There's a reason for that.


1. I have to disagree, I don't think there is significant difference for only the vibrato itself when considering these thumb positions. Also, isn't the bend completely opposite to the string in a rock style bend(bringing the string up and down)? Maybe I missed something. As for vibrating with you fingers or wrist, I guess it's to each his own. I've learned to use vibrato with control using the low thumb grip(moving my fingers instead of rotating my wrist).

2. I don't think there is any reason TBH, I don't believe many guitarists have actually thought about that, but I don't know really. I can emulate any thumbs around vibrato with my thumbs behind grip styled vibrato(or so I believe ).

I guess it also depends on the situation, I found myself switching my thumb around when "vibratoing" and bending in some places actually.
Last edited by PunchSlap at Nov 9, 2013,
#19
All I know is, I have nowhere near the control when I put my thumb on the back of the neck. There's a massive difference, you have no pivot/leverage any more. You claimed guitar wasn't that academic- well, that's simple GCSE level physics.

But I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#20
Quote by PunchSlap

Just noting: I'm not trying to make me look like some guitar guru or anything, these are just some thoughts and reflections I've had, I thought I could just share them for the sake of it

Agreed!


Okay, thanks for sharing. I shared my opinion as well.
#21
Quote by Dave_Mc
All I know is, I have nowhere near the control when I put my thumb on the back of the neck. There's a massive difference, you have no pivot/leverage any more. You claimed guitar wasn't that academic- well, that's simple GCSE level physics.

But I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.


Well, my argument is more anatomy based(but I'm no expert in the subject by any means). You still have finger muscles to use, and you still have pressure from behind the neck with the thumb to even the forces around the neck. For me, the control over vibrato is just fine this way.
My argument for using the thumbs behind grip is that it places your fingers in a better anatomical position(could depend on the relative size of your hands to the neck though) if there would be any technical difficulties. Maybe something to at least consider if there is any technical passage containing any bends or notable vibrato.
#22
Quote by GuitarMunky
Okay, thanks for sharing. I shared my opinion as well.


#23
With thumb around the neck you can do wider vibrato and it also makes huge bends a lot easier. Try doing two step bends without having the thumb around the neck. That's just impossible - a whole step bend is doable though I don't really like doing any bends without my thumb around the neck. When I need to do bigger stretches (3 notes per string) or play chords, I have my thumb behind the neck but if I play 2 notes per string pentatonic stuff and bends and vibrato, I have my thumb around the neck.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#24
^ same here.

Quote by PunchSlap
Well, my argument is more anatomy based(but I'm no expert in the subject by any means). You still have finger muscles to use, and you still have pressure from behind the neck with the thumb to even the forces around the neck. For me, the control over vibrato is just fine this way.
My argument for using the thumbs behind grip is that it places your fingers in a better anatomical position(could depend on the relative size of your hands to the neck though) if there would be any technical difficulties. Maybe something to at least consider if there is any technical passage containing any bends or notable vibrato.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger

"Fingers do not contain muscles (other than arrector pili). The muscles that move the finger joints are in the palm and forearm. The long tendons that deliver motion from the forearm muscles may be observed to move under the skin at the wrist and on the back of the hand."

And I mean if it works fine for you, that's great. But if someone's asking for help, I prefer to tell him/her the way most people do it, rather than someone who bucks the usual trend.

Once you get used to it you can switch between thumb behind and thumb round the neck pretty quickly. It's not ideal, but then neither is having shit vibrato.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#25
Quote by MaggaraMarine
When I need to do bigger stretches (3 notes per string) or play chords, I have my thumb behind the neck but if I play 2 notes per string pentatonic stuff and bends and vibrato, I have my thumb around the neck.


me 2.


Quote by Dave_Mc



Once you get used to it you can switch between thumb behind and thumb round the neck pretty quickly. It's not ideal, but then neither is having shit vibrato.


Yeah, I don't even think about it. It's become automatic.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 9, 2013,
#26
Quote by Dave_Mc
^ same here.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger

"Fingers do not contain muscles (other than arrector pili). The muscles that move the finger joints are in the palm and forearm. The long tendons that deliver motion from the forearm muscles may be observed to move under the skin at the wrist and on the back of the hand."

And I mean if it works fine for you, that's great. But if someone's asking for help, I prefer to tell him/her the way most people do it, rather than someone who bucks the usual trend.

Once you get used to it you can switch between thumb behind and thumb round the neck pretty quickly. It's not ideal, but then neither is having shit vibrato.


1. LOL, serious? Come on, that's a no-brainer. I was obviously referring to the muscles "attached" to your fingers, you know, the muscles who control them. Before I wrote that I actually deleted this line: "You actually have muscles attached to the bones of your fingers." If I wrote "forearm muscles" you would obviously have mixed it up with the muscles that flex and extend your wrist. I was thinking you would get it anyway.

2. I totally understand that.

3. Yes, I find myself switching sometimes. Like when the passage I'm playing is technically easy; or when I'm higher up the neck with my humerus in less external rotation than if I were further down the neck, where I am in a more comfortable position that allows me to put the thumb around without putting my fingers in a less comfortable position.
Not sure if it was a joke, but I don't see why it would be "shit" just because of the thumb position. You're still doing the same thing, regulating the tension of the string. And as long as you're able to do that under control then I don't see a problem.
Last edited by PunchSlap at Nov 10, 2013,
#27
For the record, horizontal vibrato (classical style) sounds just fine on electric guitar. It's just too subtle for most lead playing situations. But if you want some vibrato on a chord, or to make the vibrato "swell" in intensity, it's perfect.

Quote by MaggaraMarine
With thumb around the neck you can do wider vibrato and it also makes huge bends a lot easier.


I do bends with the thumb behind all the time, including bends with the pinky. It's just a matter of practice.

Once you've actually got good technique, you can play whatever way you want. I play with the "thumb over" most of the time too, but not because it's ideal. You first have to spend time learning the proper technique to get a feel for precision and tone. Playing with "thumb over" from the start will result in poor technique whenever you do get around to playing challenging music.
Last edited by cdgraves at Nov 10, 2013,
#28
Quote by cdgraves
Playing with "thumb over" from the start will result in poor technique whenever you do get around to playing challenging music.

Not true.

There is plenty of "challenging" music played by guitarists that have their thumbs over the neck, and it's not considered poor technique at all.

If by challenging music you mean shred licks like sweep arpeggios and 3 note per string scale runs, I would say you have a narrow view of what challenging music is, and suggest that the reason you would have a low thumb to play those things is to accommodate the stretch, which guitarists would do regardless of speed, genre, hair, or pose.
#29
Quote by GuitarMunky
Not true.

There is plenty of "challenging" music played by guitarists that have their thumbs over the neck, and it's not considered poor technique at all.

If by challenging music you mean shred licks like sweep arpeggios and 3 note per string scale runs, I would say you have a narrow view of what challenging music is, and suggest that the reason you would have a low thumb to play those things is to accommodate the stretch, which guitarists would do regardless of speed, genre, hair, or pose.


Those guitarists can do that because they're already good. They didn't get good with lazy technique, they're just good enough now that it's not consequential. We're talking about learning the guitar, which is completely different from emulating professionals. Basics come first.

And, no, that's not what mean when I say challenging.
Last edited by cdgraves at Nov 10, 2013,
#30
^ Of course it's poor technique if you can't play with thumb behind the neck at all because that's required if you play chords (which most people learn first). But it's not any more "correct" way to play the guitar than thumb around the neck. (Or it is for certain situations but I would say the same about thumb around the neck - how do you do a wide vibrato and two step bends without your thumb around the neck?)
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Nov 10, 2013,
#31
Quote by cdgraves
Those guitarists can do that because they're already good. They didn't get good with lazy technique, they're just good enough now that it's not consequential. We're talking about learning the guitar, which is completely different from emulating professionals. Basics come first.

And, no, that's not what mean when I say challenging.


The mistake you're making is that you think having the thumb over the neck is a "lazy" technique. it's not in any way, lazy... or any other negative term you want to attach to it. It is a common technique, and for good reason.
#32
Ear Training.
One hour one day, experiment with different ways to incorporate technique, theory and ear training into one, 1-hour routine.

Maybe tremelo pick, or hammer on different intervals of chords, and scales, while singing the pitches.

If you have stuff in your head that you want to express. Ear Training is your best bet, and possibly the most important area of practice on a melodic instrument.
"The mind is everything. What you think, you become."
#33
Quote by GuitarMunky
The mistake you're making is that you think having the thumb over the neck is a "lazy" technique. it's not in any way, lazy... or any other negative term you want to attach to it. It is a common technique, and for good reason.


Just curious, what is this 'good reason'?
#34
Quote by PunchSlap
Just curious, what is this 'good reason'?


it's effective.


Since I assume you guys are coming from the shred camp here are some examples of your gods in action.


Here is a guy that I've never seen referred to as having lazy technique ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THN_bpf4VRA

another often worshipped guitarist ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqeQto8PZYU

heck, even this guy can be seen bringing the thumb up for bends and vibrato...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvfg0iLnzsw

I can see some thumb here as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTLTu50oWso

Even MORE thumbage from another shred god ... (would you say this stuff is not technical?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=535EHJnIcoM


It's a mistake to think that the thumb over the neck is somehow associated with "non-technical" guitar playing. It's common place whether your talking blues, rock, country, metal, or full on shred. The only players I see that don't do it, are playing a nylon string classical guitar, and NOT bending.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 10, 2013,
#35
Quote by PunchSlap
1. LOL, serious? Come on, that's a no-brainer. I was obviously referring to the muscles "attached" to your fingers, you know, the muscles who control them. Before I wrote that I actually deleted this line: "You actually have muscles attached to the bones of your fingers." If I wrote "forearm muscles" you would obviously have mixed it up with the muscles that flex and extend your wrist. I was thinking you would get it anyway.

2. I totally understand that.

3. Yes, I find myself switching sometimes. Like when the passage I'm playing is technically easy; or when I'm higher up the neck with my humerus in less external rotation than if I were further down the neck, where I am in a more comfortable position that allows me to put the thumb around without putting my fingers in a less comfortable position.
Not sure if it was a joke, but I don't see why it would be "shit" just because of the thumb position. You're still doing the same thing, regulating the tension of the string. And as long as you're able to do that under control then I don't see a problem.


1: sorry

2:

3: well it's shit if you can't do it as well. If you can, then no worries. But as I said, most electric rock type players do vibrato with their thumb around the neck, and there's a reason for that.

Quote by cdgraves
(a) For the record, horizontal vibrato (classical style) sounds just fine on electric guitar. It's just too subtle for most lead playing situations. But if you want some vibrato on a chord, or to make the vibrato "swell" in intensity, it's perfect.


(b) I do bends with the thumb behind all the time, including bends with the pinky. It's just a matter of practice.

Once you've actually got good technique, you can play whatever way you want. I play with the "thumb over" most of the time too, but not because it's ideal. You first have to spend time learning the proper technique to get a feel for precision and tone. Playing with "thumb over" from the start will result in poor technique whenever you do get around to playing challenging music.


(a) that's pretty much my entire point, though. for some things it doesn't sound right, and it makes sense to do it the "right" way. I don't see the point in making it unnecessarily difficult.

you can also vibrato a chord with rock-style vibrato, fwiw. or make rock-style vibrato increase in intensity.

*if you have good technique*

(b) Will it really, though? I never said you should only use the thumb round technique, and for the things where it's "proper" technique, it makes sense to use it from the start. if anything doing it your way results in "bad habits", you're advocating practising things using different technique from what's normally used for playing in that style. Which doesn't make much sense to me.

FWIW I think you should use (within reason- as long as you're not hurting yourself etc.) whatever feels most comfortable.

Quote by MaggaraMarine
^ Of course it's poor technique if you can't play with thumb behind the neck at all because that's required if you play chords (which most people learn first). But it's not any more "correct" way to play the guitar than thumb around the neck. (Or it is for certain situations but I would say the same about thumb around the neck - how do you do a wide vibrato and two step bends without your thumb around the neck?)


+1

Quote by GuitarMunky
The mistake you're making is that you think having the thumb over the neck is a "lazy" technique. it's not in any way, lazy... or any other negative term you want to attach to it. It is a common technique, and for good reason.


+1

I also find it funny how the "thumb round the back of the neck" guys are talking about "challenging" and "not challenging" music. First of all I think that's very condescending- blues or even rock might be easy to play at a very basic level, but like any style of music it's hard to play *well*... and fwiw most of the (mainly classical-style) detractors who say it's simple and crap can't actually play it that authentically, I find. Secondly, you're assuming that I don't like shred and stuff like that. Are you kidding? I'm a total shred fanboy. Good, melodic shred which is played with feeling as well, but still, shred, sure.
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#37
Quote by GuitarMunky
it's effective.


Since I assume you guys are coming from the shred camp here are some examples of your gods in action.


Here is a guy that I've never seen referred to as having lazy technique ....

Bunch of videos


It's a mistake to think that the thumb over the neck is somehow associated with "non-technical" guitar playing. It's common place whether your talking blues, rock, country, metal, or full on shred. The only players I see that don't do it, are playing a nylon string classical guitar, and NOT bending.


Ah, alright then. But all these guys put their hand behind the neck whenever a technical passage comes by(possibly not very high up the neck or if they have big hands, like PG), doesn't that signify something? What these videos show is that these guitarists have no difficulty in changing the thumb position when they happen to bend. It may be 'easier' to bend a note with the thumbs over, but I still believe that if you maintain the thumbs behind position it puts your fingers in a better position for any technical difficulties. If the passage is easy, then maybe you would save some energy by putting the thumb over. But if you still have control with the thumbs behind then don't see the problem with using a thumbs behind bend or vibrato, regarding the actual vibrato and bend.

My only argument for using thumbs behind is that it makes you more ready in technical passages, don't you agree with this? I agree that a thumbs around grip puts the hand in a better position for the bending or "vibratoing" only though. But as I said, in a technical passage(particularly involving wide stretches), it might be troublesome to change positions, so it is simply more effective in the long run the keep the thumb position at the back.
#38
Quote by Dave_Mc

I also find it funny how the "thumb round the back of the neck" guys are talking about "challenging" and "not challenging" music. First of all I think that's very condescending- blues or even rock might be easy to play at a very basic level, but like any style of music it's hard to play *well*...


for sure. I find that most people with that attitude can't even play the stuff they're talking down to. The guys that can, including guys that can shred, usually have a bit more respect for it.

On a side note, I feel that one of the biggest downfalls of the current guitar culture, is this idea that if it's not an over the top spectacle, that it's not even good at all. It effects me as a teacher because I get people that won't bother to learn things like open chords, and strumming simply because they're worried that they'll be pegged as a beginner. They want me to show them "legendary/amazing solos" and techniques that they read online = awesome even though they can't switch between 3 open chords, or get through 1 entire song. It's like they got it all figured out, but they can't barely do anything because they're too good for the basics. and Im not accusing anyone in this thread of being that way necessarily, it's just a somewhat related side rant.


Quote by PunchSlap
Ah, alright then. But all these guys put their hand behind the neck whenever a technical passage comes by(possibly not very high up the neck or if they have big hands, like PG), doesn't that signify something? What these videos show is that these guitarists have no difficulty in changing the thumb position when they happen to bend. It may be 'easier' to bend a note with the thumbs over, but I still believe that if you maintain the thumbs behind position it puts your fingers in a better position for any technical difficulties. If the passage is easy, then maybe you would save some energy by putting the thumb over. But if you still have control with the thumbs behind then don't see the problem with using a thumbs behind bend or vibrato, regarding the actual vibrato and bend.

My only argument for using thumbs behind is that it makes you more ready in technical passages, don't you agree with this? I agree that a thumbs around grip puts the hand in a better position for the bending or "vibratoing" only though. But as I said, in a technical passage(particularly involving wide stretches), it might be troublesome to change positions, so it is simply more effective in the long run the keep the thumb position at the back.


Honestly I think that you're idealizing, and with all due respect I consider that a mistake.
again look at those videos and notice ...

1. there thumbs are sometimes up even during faster passages

2. bringing the thumb up or down as done seamlessly, and causes no issues regardless of speed or whatever you think "technical" is.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 10, 2013,
#39
Quote by Dave_Mc
1: sorry

2:

3: well it's shit if you can't do it as well. If you can, then no worries. But as I said, most electric rock type players do vibrato with their thumb around the neck, and there's a reason for that.


(a) that's pretty much my entire point, though. for some things it doesn't sound right, and it makes sense to do it the "right" way. I don't see the point in making it unnecessarily difficult.

you can also vibrato a chord with rock-style vibrato, fwiw. or make rock-style vibrato increase in intensity.

*if you have good technique*

(b) Will it really, though? I never said you should only use the thumb round technique, and for the things where it's "proper" technique, it makes sense to use it from the start. if anything doing it your way results in "bad habits", you're advocating practising things using different technique from what's normally used for playing in that style. Which doesn't make much sense to me.

FWIW I think you should use (within reason- as long as you're not hurting yourself etc.) whatever feels most comfortable.


+1


+1

I also find it funny how the "thumb round the back of the neck" guys are talking about "challenging" and "not challenging" music. First of all I think that's very condescending- blues or even rock might be easy to play at a very basic level, but like any style of music it's hard to play *well*... and fwiw most of the (mainly classical-style) detractors who say it's simple and crap can't actually play it that authentically, I find. Secondly, you're assuming that I don't like shred and stuff like that. Are you kidding? I'm a total shred fanboy. Good, melodic shred which is played with feeling as well, but still, shred, sure.


1. It's alright my friend

2.

3. I guess I agree with you here.

Yes, of course. I have to agree that it is more comfy with a thumbs around bend, but personally, I have to stay with my thumb behind the neck when bending in a technical passage. It just makes sense to me to stay at the position which allows for the best playability. During less technical passages I guess I use the thumbs around grip more when bending, haven't really checked though
#40
Quote by GuitarMunky
for sure. I find that most people with that attitude can't even play the stuff they're talking down to. The guys that can, including guys that can shred, usually have a bit more respect for it.

On a side note, I feel that one of the biggest downfalls of the current guitar culture, is this idea that if it's not an over the top spectacle, that it's not even good at all. It effects me as a teacher because I get people that won't bother to learn things like open chords, and strumming simply because they're worried that they'll be pegged as a beginner. They want me to show them "legendary/amazing solos" and techniques that they read online = awesome even though they can't switch between 3 open chords, or get through 1 entire song. It's like they got it all figured out, but they can't barely do anything because they're too good for the basics. and Im not accusing anyone in this thread of being that way necessarily, it's just a somewhat related side rant.


Sorry OP for offtopic stuff

1. Why is it condescending to differ between challenging and less challenging music? Either way, I'm just going to mention that I don't look down at any style of guitar playing as it simply comes down to personal preference in the end. So I'm not in the position to judge anyone.

2. I have to agree. And it is not only in the case of guitar culture, it's in the case of almost everything. Working out in the gym for example(totally unrelated to this), people load of the barbells with loads too heavy for them and they simply mess up.
Last edited by PunchSlap at Nov 10, 2013,
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