#1
Hey!
So. I was just playing around the fretboard trying to come up with a few melodies, when I stumpled upon something I couldn't really understand.
I've been told that scale-patterns are moveable along the neck, as long as the roots remain the same position in relation to the scale.
So, if I play the A major scale like this:
http://0.tqn.com/d/guitar/1/5/9/u/a_major_6_var.gif
I would be able to change the key by moving this pattern. So if I started on the 3rd fret 6th string I would have the G major scale first position. If this is NOT true, I need to be corrected!

So if this is correct, I should be able to play this pattern at the first and 13th fret to get the F major scale. To add the High E string to the scale-pattern in the link, I would play the same as the B string.
When I played this pattern, but starting on the 16 fret of the High E, I noticed that ending on the G (15 fret low E) and playing a Gminor chord, it sounded right (hitting the F-note first though, so going back up to G). Like the Gminor could "also" be used as the root chord.
My initial thought was that surely this was just a position of minor scale in the key of G, but I couldn't figure out which one.
Playing the Gminor scale I get the notes:
G, A, A#(Or Bb?), C, D, D#(Eb?), F and then G again.
So these are not the same notes I from playing the F Major scale.
I checked the Circle Of Fifths (because I can't remember it unfortunately), but they are not relative keys.
Why does it sound right to end on Gminor?
Last edited by KrisHQ at Nov 11, 2013,
#2
You're correct in the assertion that simply moving the root note of your scale pattern across the fretboard effectively changes what key your scale is being played in.

As far as why you are able to resolve to G Minor when playing the F Major scale:

This is what is referred to as 'Harmonizing the major scale'. Meaning that using the notes of the F Major scale and playing a triad chord at each interval(3 note chord containing the I, III, and V) you will get certain tonal changes as follows.

Major, Minor, Minor, Major, Major, Minor, Diminished

Applied to the F Major scale you get:

F Major, G Minor, A Minor, Bb Major, C Major, D Minor, E Diminished

With this knowledge you will notice that you can play the F Major scale, and possibly Resolve to a G Minor triad.

Doing this can also be applied to Modal theory in the sense that Resolving the scale on this G Minor gives it a different coloration or tonality.

Try this: End the scale with an F Major triad, It'll sound really bright or 'happy'.
ending on the G Minor triad gives the scale a bit of a darker or more colored sound.

What you are effectively doing is playing the Second Mode of the F Major scale, also known as the Dorian Mode.

If you were to build a chord structure of the above listed triads based around the G Minor instead of the F Major, and were to play that scale over it you'd be playing in G Dorian instead of F Major. Even though all of the notes are the same, your tonic is different, effectively setting a different 'mood' for your chords and melody.

This can be applied to any major scale.


read up on harmonizing the major scale:
http://guitar.ricmedia.com/harmonize-major-scale-triads-theory-lesson/#harmonizing-the-major-scale-triads

And there are literally a ton of tutorials on modes if you care to read up on the subject.
Last edited by iduno871 at Nov 11, 2013,
#3
I'm unsure where you are deriving that you can play at the 11th fret to get F major. If you are wondering what the relation between the F Major scale and the G Minor scale are, there is a pseudo-relationship. Scales = Chords. So since F Major consists of the notes: F G A Bb C D E, the chords derived are: F Gm Am Bb C Dm and E Diminished. Since Chords = Scales, Gm is technically a part of F major. However, if you play F major starting on a different note, you get different sounding scales. So while the chord is Gm, the scale is actually: G A Bb C D E F. This is not the minor scale because it differs on one note. Gm would have a Eb, but this new scale has an E. Colloquially, this is referred to as the Dorian scale. But in actuality, it is just F major played on a different note. So the relation of Gm to F Major is that Gm is close to the Dorian scale, which is just F Major.
#4
Hey!
Thanks for the reply, however I believe I have confused you.
I only posted the A Major scale to illustrate the major-scale pattern. The "problem" occured when playing the F Major Scale and ending on G.
But does the same principle apply to F Major and G Minor, or would it be another mode?
Thanks for the link, I'll definitely check it out

@Carnagereap
I'm truly sorry. It was a mistype, it should have said the 13th fret, obviously.
Great post though, you were correct to assume I was looking for the relationship between F Major and G Minor.

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So the G Dorian mode essentially consists of the same notes as the F Major scale, but you're just starting on a different root?
That's the case with for instance C Major and A minor in that they are relative. Are there Major->Dorian "relatives" as well?
Last edited by KrisHQ at Nov 11, 2013,
#5
Hey!
Playing the Gminor scale I get the notes:
G, A, A#(Or Bb?), C, D, D#(Eb?), F and then G again.
So these are not the same notes I from playing the F Major scale.
I checked the Circle Of Fifths (because I can't remember it unfortunately), but they are not relative keys.


ok...note the two flats you seem to be unsure of...they are correct...thus G minor is the relative of Bb Major( two flats)..not F Major...(one flat)

hope this helps...

wolf
#6
Quote by KrisHQ
@Carnagereap
I'm truly sorry. It was a mistype, it should have said the 13th fret, obviously.
Great post though, you were correct to assume I was looking for the relationship between F Major and G Minor.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the G Dorian mode essentially consists of the same notes as the F Major scale, but you're just starting on a different root?
That's the case with for instance C Major and A minor in that they are relative. Are there Major->Dorian "relatives" as well?


No problem man, it happens.

You are correct. G Dorian is just F Major, starting on a different note. C Major and A Minor are similar because A minor is just C Major on the sixth note. I'm not sure I understand your next question though. What do you mean by relatives? Can you supply an example of what you mean? If I understand correctly, I think my answer is yes. Every major scale contains a Dorian scale, seeing as how the Dorian scale is just the major scale on the second note. It is important to note, however, that scale does not equal mode. When we say Dorian scale, we mean a certain, specific sequence of notes. When talking in terms of modes, it is not entirely correct to say that a mode Dorian is just a major scale played on the second note. If you search in the columns section of UG, look for Colohue's article on modes. It is a lot to read, but the information it holds in paramount to not misunderstanding modes, as many people do. But for all intents and purposes, it is okay to say Dorian mode in this instances, even if we mean Dorian scale.
#7
The only way any of that would be true is if you never get off the G minor chord.

What you have here is simply the ii chord in F, after the Gm follow up with a C major chord and then an F major chord and you got a pretty common chord progression, especially in jazz: the ii-V-I.

Don't think about it like there are different scales over different chords. If you're playing in F major, everything you do pertains to F being heard as the tonic note. If you never play a chord that has an F in it, then you can call it G dorian.
#8
I think those explanations are way too confusing, modes didn't really need to be brought up at all, except maybe after explaining a key and what chords are in a key.

Basically, when you harmonize the major scale you get a series of chords that are in that key. So in the key of F major you have F G A Bb C D E F and each one of those notes has a chord that fits into F major. For the F chord you take F, A, and C, which gives you F major. for the G chord you take G, Bb, and D to get G minor. Continuing in this fashion you'll get all the diatonic chords in the key of F major. In a major key the order is always major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, diminished. So in F it would be F Gm Am Bb C Dm Edim

So, any of those chords should sound alright with the F major scale, but the F major will usually sound like "home" since it has the strongest resolution. The thing is, depending on what you're playing you could also easily make it resolve to Dm, which would change the key to D minor.

After this is where the modes would come in. If you structure a chord progression in such a way that doesn't really sound like it resolves to the relative major or minor, but instead to a different chord then it will be modal. The thing is, it's kinda hard to make a complex chord progression that doesn't feel like it resolves to the major or minor, so most modal songs are only a couple of chords

You'll run into a lot of people with very confused ideas about modes, but I don't really want to try to explain. Instead, if you're still interested in the proper uses of modes, check out this blog AlanHB wrote that explains it very well http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/AlanHB/blog/100719/
#9
^^^ Hey thanks for the plug mate.

TS, the reason the notes of the F scale sounds good in the key of G minor is because there's only one note difference between the G minor scale and the F major scale. G minor has an Eb, whilst F major has an E instead. When you play the E in the key of G minor, this is called an accidental. In keys you can play any note you want.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#10
What I experienced was that the Gminor chord would sound like home, instead of the F Major.
That does not happen if I start the major scale by playing an F note. So I suppose G Dorian makes sense?
And lately I've seen a lot of people saying "forget modes". But what other words are there to describe the dorian mode/scale?
Last edited by KrisHQ at Nov 12, 2013,
#11
This is what it is called:

Quote by AlanHB
When you play the E in the key of G minor, this is called an accidental. In keys you can play any note you want.
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The Byzantine scale was useful until the Ottoman scale came around and totally annihilated it.
#12
Quote by mrkeka
This is what it is called:

Well, that doesn't seem very specific and/or easy to remember.
It's much easier to remember the modes, than just F Major with different accidentals.
Imo.
#13
Quote by KrisHQ
Well, that doesn't seem very specific and/or easy to remember.
It's much easier to remember the modes, than just F Major with different accidentals.
Imo.


Easier, yes, but wrong.
#14
Quote by KrisHQ
What I experienced was that the Gminor chord would sound like home, instead of the F Major.
That does not happen if I start the major scale by playing an F note. So I suppose G Dorian makes sense?
And lately I've seen a lot of people saying "forget modes". But what other words are there to describe the dorian mode/scale?

You could describe that scale as G minor with a major 6th accidental. But I don't think calling it "G dorian scale" is wrong either. It's just that people focus too much on which scale the song uses (or more correctly - the lead guitarist uses in his solo) and think that scale is the key of the song. And they start calling tonal songs modal when those songs could easily be explained with just using accidentals. Modes confuse lots of people and when many guitarists learn about them, they somehow start thinking that modes are the Holy Grail of music.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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#15
Quote by KrisHQ
Well, that doesn't seem very specific and/or easy to remember.
It's much easier to remember the modes, than just F Major with different accidentals.
Imo.

It's 1000 times easier to just remember 7 notes with the other 5 being used to create different colors then to have to remember and constantly think about a dozen different modes and scales when soloing.

Trust me, I used to think about it your way, it's inefficient and also wrong. Accidentals happen all the time, I bet every single song that you like uses accidentals.

You're playing in E major.

E F# G# A B C# D#

The chord progression is going E - B - E - A - D - E - B
The D chord isn't pulled from the harmonized E major scale. If it were, it would be a D#dim. In a D#dim the notes are D# F# A. However, we're playing a D major chord, which notes are D F# A. Look at those chords. There is only one difference in them, the D note. The only note changed is the D#, which is lowered a semi tone to become the minor seventh in E, a D note.
We now have this scale; E F# G# A B C# D.
So what, are you going to say that you switched to A major while playing over the D chord? Maybe your now playing "E mixolydian" (accept you're not, the B chord has a D#, modes can't use accidentals) or are you just going to take the easy and correct method and just say "Over the D major chord i'll just make sure to play D instead of a D#". Or maybe you take the super good smart awesome sounding way and say "I'm going to play the chord tones over all the chords and use accidentals and outside notes as passing tones between the strong beats and chords".
#16
Quote by KrisHQ
Well, that doesn't seem very specific and/or easy to remember.
It's much easier to remember the modes, than just F Major with different accidentals.
Imo.


A major 6th accidental is pretty specific.

Perhaps you need some special words to show off?

You need to understand keys before modes, otherwise you'll get everything backwards and mixed up.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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