#1
I'm currently analyzing songs at what key they go in, and Santana Black Magic woman is said to go in A Dorian. But it has E7 chord, which includes the G# note, G# isn't part of A dorian.

I have been led to believe, that all the notes have to be in a scale/mode as well as the chords you are using.

What am i missing in here?
#2
That not all notes have to be in the scale. You can play in C major scale and play and F#.

I know the basics of modes, so I think I'm not be able to help you with that part.
#3
Quote by esa.lackstrom
I'm currently analyzing songs at what key they go in, and Santana Black Magic woman is said to go in A Dorian. But it has E7 chord, which includes the G# note, G# isn't part of A dorian.

I have been led to believe, that all the notes have to be in a scale/mode as well as the chords you are using.

What am i missing in here?


You are missing:

1. That the chords have far more impact on the resolution of a song than what you play over the chords.
2. That you should use your ears to dertermine the resolution.
3. That you can play any note you want. Your ear and the chords will not change the resolution to accomodate.

The chords on UG go;

Dm Am Dm Gm Dm A Dm

If this is correct, what key is this chord progression in esa?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#4
Dm Am and Gm is Dminor progression 1 - V - IV, but don't know the rest. Do tell, so i could learn to grasp this subject.
I have been said that a song can go in a mode as well, that it's not just lead what uses modes. That's why i started looking at the chords. I got the modes in lead playing under control pretty ok.

For example a progression Dm - G - Am was said to be in D Dorian. When Dm - Gm - Am is in D minor.

Did i misunderstand this?
#5
Quote by esa.lackstrom
Dm Am and Gm is Dminor progression 1 - V - IV, but don't know the rest. Do tell, so i could learn to grasp this subject.
I have been said that a song can go in a mode as well, that it's not just lead what uses modes. That's why i started looking at the chords. I got the modes in lead playing under control pretty ok.

For example a progression Dm - G - Am was said to be in D Dorian. When Dm - Gm - Am is in D minor.

Did i misunderstand this?

you're missing harmonic, and especially melodic minor, in harmonic minor you essentially have i-iv-V in order to create a leading tone, and thereby more pull to the i, in melodic minor you have a i IV V, but you can also use iv and v depending on how you want the song to move, so you commonly see things like i IV iv IV V i, which at first has a dorian feel, but is really just encompassed by melodic minor
#6
Modes require an initial reference point in order to be modes. What you're missing is that you don't have to only use the notes of the scale in order to be in key. The G# is one note out of key, and is thus an accidental.

Your Dm - G - Am also contains one accidental. The B in the G chord is a raised 6th because D minor contains a Bb instead.

It's a new chord progression and a new accidental. Nothing modal here.

I think what you're missing most is that you think it's all intentional. Quite often an accidental has been put into a chord progression because, while practicing, the artist hit the wrong chord and stuck with it because they liked the sound.
#7
Quote by Colohue


I think what you're missing most is that you think it's all intentional. Quite often an accidental has been put into a chord progression because, while practicing, the artist hit the wrong chord and stuck with it because they liked the sound.


In the case of an E7 chord in the context of A minor, it is very much 100% intentional.

This is basic theory.
#8
Quote by Colohue
Modes require an initial reference point in order to be modes. What you're missing is that you don't have to only use the notes of the scale in order to be in key. The G# is one note out of key, and is thus an accidental.

Your Dm - G - Am also contains one accidental. The B in the G chord is a raised 6th because D minor contains a Bb instead.

It's a new chord progression and a new accidental. Nothing modal here.

I think what you're missing most is that you think it's all intentional. Quite often an accidental has been put into a chord progression because, while practicing, the artist hit the wrong chord and stuck with it because they liked the sound.

I don't think it goes like this. I think the artist just knows chords by ear and plays them together. They may not know that much theory and that's why accidentals don't feel any more wrong than diatonic notes (and actually they shouldn't feel wrong - that's just a common misconception when people know little theory). They just use their ears and play chords that sound good.

And TS, the song is definitely not in dorian. It's in D minor. And it can't be "in dorian" because the chord progression uses a minor 6th (in G minor chord). To have that "dorian sound" it would at least need to have a major 6th in it. I know they use major 6th accidental in their solos but that doesn't change the key of the song. As people have said, you are allowed to use all 12 notes in a key.

Oh, and I don't know why A dorian. I mean, the song is clearly in D minor. Where did that "A" and "dorian" even come from?
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Nov 12, 2013,
#9
Quote by Colohue


I think what you're missing most is that you think it's all intentional. Quite often an accidental has been put into a chord progression because, while practicing, the artist hit the wrong chord and stuck with it because they liked the sound.


This sounds like me, everything has to have a meaning, some logical thing. I search until i find it.

I know that Marty Friedman for example uses notes outside a scale in his playing, and it works. But on rhythm work o always try to find things that go 100% with the theory, and then get baffled with it sometimes Should let that habit go.
#10
Quote by MaggaraMarine

And TS, the song is definitely not in dorian. It's in D minor.


yup, and if you check out the solos, he's not playing D dorian at all. minor / minor pentatonic.


This is like one of those rumor situations where somebody says something thats true (XX song by Santana is in Dorian), but then someone else passes it on, but with a slight change. (some other song by Santana is in Dorian, even though it really isn't)..... eventually someone at the end of the chain gets the idea that it's common knowledge that "some other song" is in Dorian. Happens all the time.
#11
A lot of guitar players use notes that are outside of the scale that the chords make up.

1.) Focus more on the underlying chords as opposed to a general "scale" that you will use over ALL the chords.

2.) In attempting to land on chord tones as the progression changes, experiment with "out of key" passing tones.

3.) You are correct, the progression Dm Am Gm is simply just the key of D minor....And you are also correct that there is no G# in A dorian. However, there's nothing wrong with dabbling with some funky scales, so long as you tastefully use passing tones in order to land on the nice-sounding chord tones. Maybe he's using the G# as a quick passing tone, which resolves to either A or G.

4.) Dimebag Darrell (and lots of other awesome metal guitar players) is notorious for using all kinds of out-of-key notes too...They do a lot of repetitive patterns that, when played fast, sound really bada**!! Listen to the Cowboys from Hell solo for instance. He goes right down all 6 strings using an 11 - 12 - 15 pattern on all 6 strings....and it sounds awesome! What's the "theory" or "scale" behind that actual pattern? Who knows...but it sounds awesome!
#12
Quote by esa.lackstrom
This sounds like me, everything has to have a meaning, some logical thing. I search until i find it.

I know that Marty Friedman for example uses notes outside a scale in his playing, and it works. But on rhythm work o always try to find things that go 100% with the theory, and then get baffled with it sometimes Should let that habit go.


Well I'm glad the person I was talking to understood the point that I was making. Every guitarist goes through phases where, instead of sitting down and writing everything down, they'll just piss about on guitar for a bit and see what happens.
#13
Quote by esa.lackstrom
This sounds like me, everything has to have a meaning, some logical thing. I search until i find it.

I know that Marty Friedman for example uses notes outside a scale in his playing, and it works. But on rhythm work o always try to find things that go 100% with the theory, and then get baffled with it sometimes Should let that habit go.

nothing "goes" or "doesn't go" with theory, so definitely let this thought process go

theory is just there to explain what's going on regardless of what notes you're using
#14
Quote by :-D
nothing "goes" or "doesn't go" with theory, so definitely let this thought process go

theory is just there to explain what's going on regardless of what notes you're using

Yeah. It is not against theory to use "outside" notes or chords. Somehow people think theory limits you and it does if you misunderstand it. I don't know where the misconception comes from that it's against some rules to use things that sound good and it's more "correct" theory-wise if you only use diatonic chords and notes.

Accidentals are used in every genre and most songs use at least one accidental. Theory is only to explain what you have done. For example being able to tell something is an accidental is theory knowledge. But it's not against theory to use accidentals.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#15
^^^ In fact they are called accidentals becuase that's the name that music theory gave them.

It's not a set of rules, it describes why certain things sound a certain way.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#16
E7 is the dominant, which remains major even in minor keys. It's not "out of key", it's actually 100% normal.
#17
Quote by Colohue
Modes require an initial reference point in order to be modes. What you're missing is that you don't have to only use the notes of the scale in order to be in key. The G# is one note out of key, and is thus an accidental.

[snip]

It's a new chord progression and a new accidental. Nothing modal here.


[snip]

I feel like the bolded is most important. For some reason, certain members of the guitar community decided it's ok to wrongfully label tonal things as "modal". The thing about a modal piece or modal progression is that it will NEVER contain accidentals. So, any Dorian progression will ONLY contain chords with the intervals "1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7". Therefore, Black Magic Woman CANNOT be in A dorian.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Nov 13, 2013,
#18
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I feel like the bolded is most important. For some reason, certain members of the guitar community decided it's ok to wrongfully label tonal things as "modal". The thing about a modal piece or modal progression is that it will NEVER contain accidentals. So, any Dorian progression will ONLY contain chords with the intervals "1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7". Therefore, Black Magic Woman CANNOT be in A dorian.

Actually I think some old modal pieces contained some accidentals to make some parts sound less dissonant. You can retain the "modal feeling" even if you used some accidentals. But real modal music is so different from contemporary popular music.

And I don't know how Black Magic Woman would even be in A dorian because it's clearly in D minor. It doesn't even use the major 6th accidental (OK, some licks do but using the b6 all the time makes it sound like minor) - also the key center isn't A, it's D. Also, the chord progression destroys the "dorian" feeling that the song doesn't even have.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#19
IF the chords are Am and D7, then the Key is Am and the mode is dorian. Really, running through Am D7 and turning around on E7 is pretty damn modal, even in the medieval sense of the concept. I mean, they weren't doing chord vamps back then, but they used contrapuntal melody to work through what we'd now call a harmonic progression. The modes mean that you could tonicize multiple tonal centers relative to the key - A dorian, for example, is key of A, but also tonicizes G.

Important to remember that concepts and applications of modes have changed in the last 400 years. Look at modal jazz stuff to see how they're used today.
#20
Quote by cdgraves
IF the chords are Am and D7, then the Key is Am and the mode is dorian. Really, running through Am D7 and turning around on E7 is pretty damn modal, even in the medieval sense of the concept. I mean, they weren't doing chord vamps back then, but they used contrapuntal melody to work through what we'd now call a harmonic progression. The modes mean that you could tonicize multiple tonal centers relative to the key - A dorian, for example, is key of A, but also tonicizes G.

Important to remember that concepts and applications of modes have changed in the last 400 years. Look at modal jazz stuff to see how they're used today.


Every example of 'modal jazz' I've been pointed to to try and prove this point has been jazz, but not modal. A Dorian does not 'tonicize' G, whatever that means. The tonal centre of A Dorian is A. If it's G, then it's not A Dorian.
#21
Quote by cdgraves
IF the chords are Am and D7, then the Key is Am and the mode is dorian. Really, running through Am D7 and turning around on E7 is pretty damn modal, even in the medieval sense of the concept.

Yes. If Am and D7 are the "vamp" and E7 is the turnaround, that's modal. That said, so what? This particular song still isn't modal.

I mean, they weren't doing chord vamps back then, but they used contrapuntal melody to work through what we'd now call a harmonic progression.

And that contrapuntal melody was purely modal, especially since no one had really thought to compose things that weren't modal back then (or, if anyone did, it never really passed down to us).

The modes mean that you could tonicize multiple tonal centers relative to the key - A dorian, for example, is key of A, but also tonicizes G.

Um...no. A is ALWAYS the tonic in A dorian; that's probably part of why it's called A dorian (and not G Ionian).
#22
^^^ Which mode would you say Am D7 E7 would be in? I'd personally say that the presence of a V - i cadence outs the progression firmly in the key of A minor.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#23
Dorian is a minor mode. Modes don't preclude dominant-tonic resolution. Even in modal species counterpoint, it's entirely normal to use the leading tone.

Quote by crazysam23_Atax

Um...no. A is ALWAYS the tonic in A dorian; that's probably part of why it's called A dorian (and not G Ionian).


Tonicize, implying modulation. Think Greensleeves. Putting the "leading tone" in a different place sets you up for modulation to a relative major or minor NOT on vi or III. Also, I'm talking in this paragraph strictly about ye olde modes, which were common practice prior to the advent of harmonic analysis.
#24
^^^ Cool. What mode is your progression Am D7 E7 in?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#25
Quote by cdgraves
Dorian is a minor mode.


I didn't read anything after that. There was no point. Major and Minor modes are a myth.
#26
Quote by esa.lackstrom
This sounds like me, everything has to have a meaning, some logical thing. I search until i find it.

I know that Marty Friedman for example uses notes outside a scale in his playing, and it works. But on rhythm work o always try to find things that go 100% with the theory, and then get baffled with it sometimes Should let that habit go.



Marty Friedman also says that D# is the Relative Major of C Minor....

Best,

Sean
#27
Quote by AlanHB
^^^ Cool. What mode is your progression Am D7 E7 in?

Is this the progression TS was talking about? I look at that and I see a ii-V in G then a secondary dominant of ii, with a high probability of resolving to Am. But it can go anywhere.
#28
^^^ I'm talking about cdgraves progression Am D7 E7. I wish to know which mode it's in.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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