#1
Ok, so I read the posting about asking about modes, but hopefully this won't be deleted, or worse, I will be humiliated in public

So, for some reason my teacher taught me the modes as the first scales to learn, I've been able to use some of the modes while playing some songs, but still struggling with them.

No longer with my previous teacher, due to low funds, I recently started to read about the Major scale and how I need to learn the Major and minor scales.
Now, I know the Ionian = Major scale and the Aeolian = minor scale, but here is where my confusion begins, when I see the Major scale across the entire fretboard like in the link below I can see the exact same notes as the modes including the minor modes

Major Scale Diagram

So, my question is very simple, is the Major scale the same as the modes? except with different starting points? if so, can somebody explain why they are called two different things if they are one and the same? and why are the minor modes being played in the major scale? or am I completely looking at this the wrong way?

Hope someone can help me out, because this has been bugging me for a while..

Thanks all
Last edited by peanut77 at Nov 22, 2013,
#2
Quote by peanut77
Ok, so I read the posting about asking about modes, but hopefully this won't be deleted, or worse, I will be humiliated in public

So, for some reason my teacher taught me the modes as the first scales to learn, I've been able to use some of the modes while playing some songs, but still struggling with them.

No longer with my previous teacher, due to low funds, I recently started to read about the Major scale and how I need to learn the Major and minor scales.
Now, I know the Ionian = Major scale and the Aeolian = minor scale, but here is where my confusion begins, when I see the Major scale across the entire fretboard like in the link below I can see the exact same notes as the modes including the minor modes

Major Scale Diagram

So, my question is very simple, is the Major scale the same as the modes? except with different starting points? if so, can somebody explain why they are called two different things if they are one and the same? and why are the minor modes being played in the major scale? or am I completely looking at this the wrong way?

Hope someone can help me out, because this has been bugging me for a while..

Thanks all



Well, the modes of the Major scale share the same notes as the Major scale, so yes the patterns on the neck will be the same. To understand why they are not the "same thing" though, you'll need to get a handle on some fundamentals.
#3
Let's start with just major and minor because those are the ones that are used the most. They do share the same notes. But have you heard about the "major=happy and minor=sad" thing (this is of course just a simplified version of how major and minor differ from each other)? They are the same notes but they get different functions. If you for example have a chord progression C-F-G-C, it's in C major. Similar progression in A minor would be Am-Dm-Em-Am.

Let's take a look at the notes the chords have.

C major progression:

C major = C E G
F major = F A C
G major = G B D

If we build a scale using these notes, we get C D E F G A B which is C major.

Then the A minor progression:

A minor = A C E
D minor = D F A
E minor = E G B

If we build a scale using these notes, we get A B C D E F G which is A minor.

But as you can see, the scales have the same notes. But what makes them different is the sound. If you play those notes over the C-F-G-C progression, it sounds happier than if you play them over Am-Dm-Em-Am progression which sounds sadder. The first progression is in a major key and the second one is a minor key. That's why the same set of notes gets two names (or actually seven if you count all modes) - the notes function differently. The key center in C major is C but in A minor it's A. Again, same notes but different functions.

A minor and C major are relative keys because they share the same notes. But as you may hear, minor and major songs sound different.

This applies to all modes but really, modes aren't used that often in contemporary music. But yeah, it's all about the tonic - the root of the scale. And that's defined by the chords you are playing over. And if there are no chords, you can still hear it because the melody will be centered around that note.

So in A minor A is the note "number one" and in C major C is the note "number one". If you listen to minor and major songs, you'll understand it easier. And the difference between a minor and major song is that in minor song the tonic is a minor chord and in a major song the tonic is a major chord. You'll hear it when you listen to some music. Or at least you'll learn to hear it.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Nov 22, 2013,
#4
what the guys above said.

Just to answer your specific questions:

Quote by peanut77

So, my question is very simple, (a) is the Major scale the same as the modes? except with different starting points? (b) if so, can somebody explain why they are called two different things if they are one and the same? (c) and why are the minor modes being played in the major scale? (d) or am I completely looking at this the wrong way?


(a) yes

(b) they aren't really one and the same (well, apart from major/ionian and natural minor/aoelian- they are one and the same). they're the same notes but with different roots/starting points/resolutions and a different relationship between the intervals/scale degrees in each mode.

(c) they're all derived from the major scale- not all the major scale modes are major, some are minor. that's confusing, but that's just the way it is. it's similar to the way a song in a major key can have (diatonic) minor chords in it, or how a song in a minor key can have (diatonic) major chords- they're derived much the same way as the modes.

(d) nope not really- it's a good sign that you spotted this yourself.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
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#6
Thanks fellas, I will read up on this new info, really helpful stuff.

Thanks all, I'm sure I'll be back with a new set of mind twisting questions after reading, lol
#7
A little off topic, what kind of teacher would teach "the modes" first?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#8
Quote by AlanHB
A little off topic, what kind of teacher would teach "the modes" first?

I was going to say exactly the same thing. Pentatonic (both major and minor), blues major, minor (harmonic and natural) are all scales I would teach first. And then chord theory, how to use the scales etc. It would be a long time before I would even touch modes.

On topic, it looks like you're on the right track, and it's good that you spotted this yourself. Honestly I would say to forget about modes, and read up on the links that have been posted.
#9
Quote by peanut77
Ok, so I read the posting about asking about modes, but hopefully this won't be deleted, or worse, I will be humiliated in public

So, for some reason my teacher taught me the modes as the first scales to learn, I've been able to use some of the modes while playing some songs, but still struggling with them.

No longer with my previous teacher, due to low funds, I recently started to read about the Major scale and how I need to learn the Major and minor scales.
Now, I know the Ionian = Major scale and the Aeolian = minor scale, but here is where my confusion begins, when I see the Major scale across the entire fretboard like in the link below I can see the exact same notes as the modes including the minor modes

Major Scale Diagram

So, my question is very simple, is the Major scale the same as the modes? except with different starting points? if so, can somebody explain why they are called two different things if they are one and the same? and why are the minor modes being played in the major scale? or am I completely looking at this the wrong way?

Hope someone can help me out, because this has been bugging me for a while..

Thanks all

Your teacher has it all ****ing arse backwards mate. Not good.
#10
Quote by AlanHB
A little off topic, what kind of teacher would teach "the modes" first?

Maybe he called the scale shapes "modes"?
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#11
They in themselves aren't "modes" unless they are played in the proper contexxt. Since all you will be doing is playing Major and Minor keys these will function as extended scales, but basically be nothing more than playing in Major or Minor.

So you can call them what you will in terms of memory aids. I do, but they are names with a specific scope that can later be used in a modal context, correctly, when that time comes and the context musically in the background IS modal.

When I teach, I explain to my students, when we finish learning the major scales, you'll also know every modal scale just as instantly and effortlessly. I'm not tipping how that is made possible, but it works out to be exactly that.

Best,

Sean
#12
^ Yeah. Without context nothing really works.

But I have seen some people referring to the different scale shapes with mode names. For example I think John Myung (the bassist from Dream Theater) did it in one of his video lessons.

I see it kind of pointless and confusing. Why do you need to name the different shapes? They are the same scale. And that can also make you misunderstand modes.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#13
Quote by AlanHB
A little off topic, what kind of teacher would teach "the modes" first?


IIRC my sister learnt a little saxophone at school, and the first "scale" taught in her beginner book was dorian. i'm guessing cause it's used a lot in jazz. EDIT: Just to clarify, though, I agree. In the vast majority of instances you should be learning the major scale first, really. You could maybe make a case for learning natural minor or minor pentatonic first for electric guitar. But yeah stay the heck away from modes at the start, in most instances.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Nov 24, 2013,
#14
Quote by AlanHB
A little off topic, what kind of teacher would teach "the modes" first?



a sadist