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#1
alright, i would post this in the philosophy thread, but it's really not an intellectual discussion at all because i really do think it's a stupid thought that's just infesting me for some reason. also, forgive me if i sound ****ed up or whatever, and i'm sorry if you don't think this is thread-worthy but **** you man it's not like there was much interesting shit that i'm pushing down anyway. x

okay, so, a little while ago, i started thinking about parallel universes because we started discussing it in physics classes. this involved schrodinger's cat and the gold leaf experiment alike, and i started thinking about why things actually happen. you can actually predict what'll happen to an object if you know information about the mass of the object hitting it, and the speed it's hitting the object at, and the object's surroundings etc. this got me thinking about laplace's demon (or something similar, whatever it was called), which is the idea that if you have enough information about something you can determine its future to a proportional accuracy to the amount of information you know (or something like that), so you can potentially learn about the future of anything in the physical universe to an infinite time parameter if you know everything about the variables that affect it in every way.

although it was pointed out to me that quantum mechanics and hsbg's probability principle shows that you can't know everything about something, and thus you can't predict something to 100% accuracy, so things do have a weirdly undeterministic factor. but if this is true, why are we following this particular path and not another? parallel universes exist, but this consciousness has only followed this road? why? as ******ed as i thought this question was, i never found any answers that satisfied me, and this started to get me thinking about free will

if you knew enough about the solar system, you can predict the radius and time period etc of each orbit with little difficulty, just by using rules we've tested and accepted. why wouldn't this apply to human behaviour? why do we think that we have so much control? well, that's a different question, but i reckon that just because we don't know how to calculate what somebody will do at any given time, that doesn't mean that we are the inner god of our emotions and actions. we are simply going where the night takes us. if something ruins your night, your night is ruined, ya dig? external factors determine internal factors. tere's a million ways to say it, you get the idea

free will was an open-and-shut case of 'this is bullshit'. we don't control our actions. either our actions are determined by external factors, or a probability wave.

but if there's no such thing as free will, is there really any logic in resenting and hating anyone? if you were a rapist at the time he was raping someone, you would still rape that person. you would BECOME him. he's doing it, so if you were literally him, atom for atom, you'd rape the victim too. so where's the logic in hating someone? after all, they're just doing what they HAVE TO do. there's logic in fearing people, but not hating, imo.

but this is really starting to annoy me. i'm CONSTANTLY thinking about it. for like, a year straight now, i apply it to everything. i have not found any reasonable refutation to the idea that everything is just a response to something else. and thus instead of leaving my house thinking that i'm controlling my day, i'm leaving thinking that my environment will allow me to respond accordingly, and if everything in the day goes normal, that'll leave me the room to do what i wanted to do. however, if something is abnormal, then i'll respond to that because i'm the universe's bitch.

i came here befcause i want you guys to beat this idea the shit out of me, and far away. PLEASE BEAT SOME SENSE INTO ME. it's pissing me off. there's another idea that's been kicking around for too long too but that's for another day and another shitty thread. thx


tl;dr: i get it, it's long. just read the parts in bold if you cba reading it all
Click here to hear my BOB DYLAN (Blowing in the Wind) out right now May 2k17
#3
I don't see much wrong, unless you're really obsessed with it. If it means you feel more compassion and understanding, or at least a desire for understanding, for people who you would otherwise simply revile then I feel that's a good thing.
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#5
even destiny needs a little prodding from time to time. we are the prod. who's doing the prodding? i don't know.
Quote by archerygenious
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#7
I used to think too much like you, then I realized that nothing mattered because I was going to die one day, #YOLO.

Nah but for real, we are determined and not just by the laws of the universe, by Man itself. Accept it. You can't just chase that idea away, if it's a persistent thing. What helped me was meditation, just sit down, focus on your breath and think of that idea in a contemplative manner and see why it bothers you. Don't become subjective or over-think it though as it is NOT contemplative thinking anymore. Here's a quote that I like a lot : You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf. There are going to be TONS of thing, which you have no control of, happen to you. Deal with them as best as you can, if you don't like that idea, when it comes up, just stop thinking about it, chase it away. Negative thinking does little good anyway. And it's not rational when it hurts you, trust me. What you're saying MAY be true, but if it's bad for you then what's the point right ? It's the Universe man, with a capital U, or it could only be influences from society, your peer, your education, what the ****, you have no control over those things like I previously said. The best thing to do is to free your mind, you're a prisoner of your way of thinking, accept the freedom you can unlock in your mind.

Here hope it helped
Last edited by Campbell22 at Nov 27, 2013,
#8
There is no logic in hating someone, because hate is not logical. Is that bad? No.

You are not the universes bitch, you are the universe.

You are not in the world. It's not you in here, and the world out there. You are your world.

You don't have experiences, experience is all there is.

Helping the world and helping yourself are one in the same.

Now go for a jog or help an old lady or something, get out of your head.
#9
Quote by Todd Hart
I don't see much wrong, unless you're really obsessed with it. If it means you feel more compassion and understanding, or at least a desire for understanding, for people who you would otherwise simply revile then I feel that's a good thing.

yea i thought of it that way too. i guess i also wanted to see if others thought this way. oh, and if you have any ideas that have just been floating around in your head for a long time. like... ways that you think. or little things about patterns in life.
Click here to hear my BOB DYLAN (Blowing in the Wind) out right now May 2k17
#10
You know the "issues" you raise are only issues if you posit a dualism between your will and determinism.

You can do as you wish so long as your wish is concordant with physical laws and your abilities to realise that wish.

Your wishes are also determined.

You can still think coherently about intentionality whilst acknowledging that "free will" as popularly conceived cannot exist. If someone tends to enjoy the suffering of others, for example, we may call him "evil" not because he "chose" to be, but rather because that is a behavioral tendency worth accounting for. Whether or not he can help it is irrelevant to anything except his behaviour.
#11
Quote by laid-to-waste
free will was an open-and-shut case of 'this is bullshit'. we don't control our actions. either our actions are determined by external factors, or a probability wave.

but if there's no such thing as free will, is there really any logic in resenting and hating anyone? if you were a rapist at the time he was raping someone, you would still rape that person. you would BECOME him. he's doing it, so if you were literally him, atom for atom, you'd rape the victim too. so where's the logic in hating someone? after all, they're just doing what they HAVE TO do. there's logic in fearing people, but not hating, imo.

This isn't true at all.

Psychological determinism doesn't stop us blaming people or holding them responsible, it's exactly why we hold them responsible.

Put a greedy person in a room with a cake and he will eat the cake. If we know everything about him and the situation we know that no matter how many times you repeat that situation (atom for atom identical) he will always eat that cake. That doesn't excuse him, it's exactly why we think he's responsible. He'd never do otherwise and if anyone else was him (if that idea even makes sense) they'd do the same and that's why we hold him responsible. He is the type of thing that would do that. He has a stable disposition towards doing that.

It's either random or determined, there's no middle ground, and I think being deterministic clearly preserves what we want to think about free will and responsibility far more than randomness. He couldn't just do anything given a certain input, he could only do the one action his mind would output. His will isn't "free" in that it's do anything, but that's not what we want. We want an idea of a person that has stable dispositions and whose actions are entirely determined by their personality, not entirely free of any causation.
#12
I swear to god someone made this exact same thread like two years ago.
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#13
Quote by WhiskeyFace
There is no logic in hating someone, because hate is not logical. Is that bad? No.

it might not be bad, but it makes me feel strange every time i dismiss my own or other peoples' hate every time i see or feel it. i mean, sometimes it's so intense that it hurts to dismiss it. that's why i hate the idea being in my head.

Quote by WhiskeyFace
You are not the universes bitch, you are the universe.

You are not in the world. It's not you in here, and the world out there. You are your world.

You don't have experiences, experience is all there is.
sorry dude, these three don't mean shit to me

Quote by WhiskeyFace
Helping the world and helping yourself are one in the same.
i 100% agree

Quote by WhiskeyFace
Now go for a jog or help an old lady or something, get out of your head.
bit shitty of you to assume that just cos i'm thinking about this stuff that i'm in some way inactive.
Quote by MadClownDisease
This isn't true at all.

Psychological determinism doesn't stop us blaming people or holding them responsible, it's exactly why we hold them responsible.

Put a greedy person in a room with a cake and he will eat the cake. If we know everything about him and the situation we know that no matter how many times you repeat that situation (atom for atom identical) he will always eat that cake. That doesn't excuse him, it's exactly why we think he's responsible. He'd never do otherwise and if anyone else was him (if that idea even makes sense) they'd do the same and that's why we hold him responsible. He is the type of thing that would do that. He has a stable disposition towards doing that.
but i never spoke a word of responsibility or blame! all i said is the logic of hating or resenting them or expecting anything different is not reasonable. of course we must hold rapists responsible and imprison them, to protect others. but the fact remains that his impulses are driven by a large force that anybody would follow. just think of the last shameful thing you did, and how you felt whilst you were doing it. it's terrifying to think imo.
Click here to hear my BOB DYLAN (Blowing in the Wind) out right now May 2k17
Last edited by laid-to-waste at Nov 27, 2013,
#14
Quote by laid-to-waste


but if there's no such thing as free will, is there really any logic in resenting and hating anyone? if you were a rapist at the time he was raping someone, you would still rape that person. you would BECOME him. he's doing it, so if you were literally him, atom for atom, you'd rape the victim too. so where's the logic in hating someone? after all, they're just doing what they HAVE TO do. there's logic in fearing people, but not hating, imo.

This bit doesn't make sense to me. Why is it logical to fear someone because they're doing what they have to do? They will do whatever they're going to do whether you fear them or not, so what's gained by fear?
#15
Quote by laid-to-waste
it might not be bad, but it makes me feel strange every time i dismiss my own or other peoples' hate every time i see or feel it. i mean, sometimes it's so intense that it hurts to dismiss it. that's why i hate the idea being in my head.

sorry dude, these three don't mean shit to me

i 100% agree

bit shitty of you to assume that just cos i'm thinking about this stuff that i'm in some way inactive.

Basically, you're becoming solipsistic. The thing I said about going for a jog was because your problem is not something that can be explained. It's an emotional problem and requires a cure, not an answer.

On free will: what you're saying is that someone told you about determinism, or you read about it or something. Your response to it, which is evident by your post, was "oh shit! so this means free will is a load of shit". The "correct" response and way to think about it is: "Indeed! So then what is this thing that we've previously called free will?".

Determinism shouldn't change anything. It's not a duality between one or the other. Both are true, and just different ways of thinking about things.
#16
Quote by Campbell22
I used to think too much like you, then I realized that nothing mattered because I was going to die one day, #YOLO.

Nah but for real, we are determined and not just by the laws of the universe, by Man itself. Accept it. You can't just chase that idea away, if it's a persistent thing. What helped me was meditation, just sit down, focus on your breath and think of that idea in a contemplative manner and see why it bothers you. Don't become subjective or over-think it though as it is NOT contemplative thinking anymore. Here's a quote that I like a lot : You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf. There are going to be TONS of thing, which you have no control of, happen to you. Deal with them as best as you can, if you don't like that idea, when it comes up, just stop thinking about it, chase it away. Negative thinking does little good anyway. And it's not rational when it hurts you, trust me. What you're saying MAY be true, but if it's bad for you then what's the point right ? It's the Universe man, with a capital U, or it could only be influences from society, your peer, your education, what the ****, you have no control over those things like I previously said. The best thing to do is to free your mind, you're a prisoner of your way of thinking, accept the freedom you can unlock in your mind.

Here hope it helped

this is actually really helpful. you are right; even if i'm right, it doesn't mean i can't learn to surf. it was never really anything intellectually special, i really was just annoying myself. cheers bud

Quote by WhiskeyFace
Basically, you're becoming solipsistic. The thing I said about going for a jog was because your problem is not something that can be explained. It's an emotional problem and requires a cure, not an answer.

fair enough

Quote by WhiskeyFace
On free will: what you're saying is that someone told you about determinism, or you read about it or something. Your response to it, which is evident by your post, was "oh shit! so this means free will is a load of shit". The "correct" response and way to think about it is: "Indeed! So then what is this thing that we've previously called free will?".
dude i really don't see a difference. i dont think i did one or the other.

Quote by WhiskeyFace
Determinism shouldn't change anything. It's not a duality between one or the other. Both are true, and just different ways of thinking about things.

yeah maybe
Click here to hear my BOB DYLAN (Blowing in the Wind) out right now May 2k17
Last edited by laid-to-waste at Nov 27, 2013,
#17
Quote by laid-to-waste
bit shitty of you to assume that just cos i'm thinking about this stuff that i'm in some way inactive.but i never spoke a word of responsibility or blame! all i said is the logic of hating or resenting them or expecting anything different is not reasonable. of course we must hold rapists responsible and imprison them, to protect others. but the fact remains that his impulses are driven by a large force that anybody would follow. just think of the last shameful thing you did, and how you felt whilst you were doing it. it's terrifying to think imo.


just feel lucky you're not a scumbag and move on. and on the off chance that you are a scumbag, hey, maybe now you might be able to do something about it.

when there are so many interconnected factors that contribute to so called determinism, it's practically meaningless in real life. it's just an interesting thought, that's all. so many ways to the same result.
Quote by archerygenious
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#18
That's pretty much it, and I've made a thread on this before.

About the judging actions based on what is likely causation;

Imagine you have a person. Now, imagine that there is another universe with that same person and that every aspect of it is the same as the original, down to the electrical charge of every atom and even beyond that.

Assuming the same quantum decay occurs. the two people will perform exactly the same actions. Assuming that quantum decay occurs randomly without causation, then the actions will be different and all human action is based on randomness.

But assume that we have all the same particles and decay, What if we change the stimuli they experience? If you pose 2 different situations to the same person, they will react differently.

Therefore, all human action is due to reaction to stimuli, not thought.
#19
Quote by Life Is Brutal
Therefore, all human action is due to reaction to stimuli, not thought.


What an incredibly silly thing to say. Why on Earth do you discount thought as a stimulus?
...Stapling helium to penguins since 1949.
#20
Quote by Life Is Brutal
That's pretty much it, and I've made a thread on this before.

About the judging actions based on what is likely causation;

Imagine you have a person. Now, imagine that there is another universe with that same person and that every aspect of it is the same as the original, down to the electrical charge of every atom and even beyond that.

Assuming the same quantum decay occurs. the two people will perform exactly the same actions. Assuming that quantum decay occurs randomly without causation, then the actions will be different and all human action is based on randomness.

But assume that we have all the same particles and decay, What if we change the stimuli they experience? If you pose 2 different situations to the same person, they will react differently.

Therefore, all human action is due to reaction to stimuli, not thought.

yeah, that's starting to infest me recently too. what we think can be completely detached from the process of doing things, and what we do would still make sense. that is so ****ing weird.
Quote by Todd Hart
What an incredibly silly thing to say. Why on Earth do you discount thought as a stimulus?

i wouldn't discount it, i don't think he was either. i think he just means that thought could be thought of as a commentary of what's going on, not really a controller of what's going on.
Quote by vIsIbleNoIsE
just feel lucky you're not a scumbag and move on. and on the off chance that you are a scumbag, hey, maybe now you might be able to do something about it.

when there are so many interconnected factors that contribute to so called determinism, it's practically meaningless in real life. it's just an interesting thought, that's all. so many ways to the same result.

ha, i like that. cheers.
Click here to hear my BOB DYLAN (Blowing in the Wind) out right now May 2k17
Last edited by laid-to-waste at Nov 27, 2013,
#22
You're placing too much emphasis on 'affects' being synonymous with 'determines', which to me is meaningless. Knowing that I am affected by circumstance is painfully obvious. It doesn't change the fact that I am still empowered to alter the circumstance, and alter the way I react to them, which is pretty much what free will is.


That rape scenario. That makes no sense to me, I don't understand what you're trying to say about it. It seems like you're defining the nature of an object/entity by what it's physically made of. That's a valid conclusion in some instances (on a fundamental level, in particular), but to me that's the equivalent of saying that every time a flake of skin falls off, you're suddenly no longer made up of the same atoms as you were and thus you are not the same person.Ultimately it's a paradoxical way of thinking. I think you'd be interested in this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

If you were to suddenly replace the rapist, with their ideals/history/circumstance replacing yours, how is that any different to the current scenario in which the rapist is NOT you?

Determinism is fine, but as you mentioned there are fundamental elements of quantum physics which don't adhere to that notion at all (at least not our understanding of them). Entropy is a different example in thermodynamics. Submitting to the idea that everything is predetermined defeats the purpose of life as a whole and it doesn't really work when you take it out of the context of simplistic physical interactions and apply it to something as complex as the brain.

p.s. Ah, the physics class philosopher. I remember doing first year philosophy at uni years ago and suddenly every 17 year old was the next Aristotle. Good times.
#23
"Stop thinking and start living" - Thomas Jefferson
“Just to sum up: I would do various things very quickly.” - Donald Trump
#24
Intuitively that's what makes sense. But quantum uncertainty can still affect larger scale systems.

So in short. No because quantum mechanics
#25
Seriously? THAT'S what's bothering your day-to-day life? First world problems, sheesh...


Guys I can't focus because I can't like really figure out if I'm just a collection of unthinking atoms or actually or human or even understand the metaphysical ramifications of each what do I do
My God, it's full of stars!
#26
Quote by Dreadnought

Guys I can't focus because I can't like really figure out if I'm just a collection of unthinking atoms or actually or human or even understand the metaphysical ramifications of each what do I do



How dare you question the validity of the strict application of a singular philosophical ideology to the entire universe. What are you, some kind of normal person? Uneducated philistine.
#27
I'm just a pleb, criticisms of the uncertainty principle do not keep me awake at night
My God, it's full of stars!
#28
Quote by Dreadnought
I'm just a pleb, criticisms of the uncertainty principle do not keep me awake at night




We must just not be at the same level, I'm assuming. I was at my intellectual peak in year 12 physics class. It's been all downhill from there. I don't give a shit anymore if Schrodinger's cat is dead or alive, I just want him to stop staring at the box in contemplation and get a real job instead of letting everyone else contribute to taxes.
#30
Be happy that you are not a dipshit and can have interesting thoughts like that, and wonder about things to a greater level
#32
My family is having a silly argument about our annual family football game so I'm deciding to pretend to read this thread. Therefore by free will I have become a reader.

But like I said, I'm only pretending to read, so I'm not sure what any of this is about. So I don't know.
BOOM-SHAKALAKALAKA-BOOM-SHAKALAKUNGA
#33
Quote by Todd Hart
What an incredibly silly thing to say. Why on Earth do you discount thought as a stimulus?


Thought isn't stimulus, its a product from stimulus.

What is a thought composed of? Atoms and electrical signals.

How are these manipulated in a human brain? By stimulus.

You can't examine thought as being arbitrary in the human body, if someone suffers massive brain damage then their thoughts are going to be altered from how their undamaged brain would think.

If we did have entirely free will, then our thoughts would be outside of the limitations of the body and wouldn't be confined by what condition the brain is in.
#34
ts you should probably familiarize yourself with aldous huxley and neil postman
Quote by yellowfrizbee
What does a girl have to do to get it in the butt thats all I ever wanted from you. Why, Ace? Why? I clean my asshole every night hoping and wishing and it never happens.
Bitches be Crazy.

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#35
This is starting to feel more and more like the scenarios you get in a senior physics class. People asserting their own ideologies, trying to get create pseudo-intellectual discussion based on fallacies and minimal understanding, and ultimately arguing towards no end. The party who raised the idea bitterly concludes that no one else understood the importance of their concept, and the process repeats the next time they read an article about a vague philosophical ideology endorsed by their favourite Michio Kaku, Simon Singh or whatever name you want to apply.

Regardless of any question of free will, determinism is a pretty pointless idea to stick by in life. It doesn't really apply to anything relevant at all outside of your own internal pondering.
#36
Quote by shiggityswah
snip.

Do you know what is just as pointless as idle and non-productive philosophising? Pointless and non-productive whining about idle and non-productive philosophising.
#37
Quote by LostLegion
*blows SlackerBabbath whistle*


BOLLOCKS!

See that? ^ I chose to randomly write that word, nothing made me do it, nothing influenced me, I just decided to do it purely of my own accord.
#38
why did you arbitrarily bold like 3 paragraphs?

Quote by SlackerBabbath
BOLLOCKS!

See that? ^ I chose to randomly write that word, nothing made me do it, nothing influenced me, I just decided to do it purely of my own accord.

prove it
#39
Quote by snipelfritz
My family is having a silly argument about our annual family football game so I'm deciding to pretend to read this thread. Therefore by free will I have become a reader.

But like I said, I'm only pretending to read, so I'm not sure what any of this is about. So I don't know.

Yeah I'm at work and doing something similar. The more I type the more I look like I'm working.


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I was supposed to have the day off so screw them

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy All work and no play makes jack a dull boy
Last edited by ali.guitarkid7 at Nov 28, 2013,
#40
Get Spinoza specific on this. (from Ethics)

″the infant believes that it is by free will that it seeks the breast; the angry boy believes that by free will he wishes vengeance; the timid man thinks it is with free will he seeks flight; the drunkard believes that by a free command of his mind he speaks the things which when sober he wishes he had left unsaid. ... All believe that they speak by a free command of the mind, whilst, in truth, they have no power to restrain the impulse which they have to speak.″

Sort of what you're describing, except for Spinoza the answer wasn't nihilism, but Reason.
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