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#4
That's not 4/5. That's a tempo change.
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#5
The tempo doesn't change though. Did you listen to it? I used 4 5th notes for the first part and 5 4th notes for the second.

Edit: like, the tempo is 5th note =160. That's how you would have to write it.
Last edited by jrcsgtpeppers at Nov 29, 2013,
#6
There is no such thing as 4/5. That would meant that there are four "Fifth" notes to a bar, which doesn't make sense.
#7
I'm way too tired to actually look, but maybe. It doesn't really matter though, irrational time signatures like 4/5 are purely theoretical. They exist if you want them too, but if you don't it's just a tempo shift or metric modulation.
#8
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
The tempo doesn't change though. Did you listen to it? I used 4 5th notes for the first part and 5 4th notes for the second.

Edit: like, the tempo is 5th note =160. That's how you would have to write it.

But there's no such thing as 5th notes. There's quintuplets though, so that's probably what happened.

Also, you're a complete dick if you wrote out a part in quintuplets. That shit ain't cool.
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#9
Quote by Mister A.J.
But there's no such thing as 5th notes. There's quintuplets though, so that's probably what happened.

Also, you're a complete dick if you wrote out a part in quintuplets. That shit ain't cool.

Ur right on imo. I think what happened is TS shifted to like 5:4 Quarter notes (haha 5 notes equals one four four bar, i dont really know the proper way to say that) Quintuplet quarter notes? Meh, idk the name, but thats what i got.
#10
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
The tempo doesn't change though. Did you listen to it? I used 4 5th notes for the first part and 5 4th notes for the second.

Edit: like, the tempo is 5th note =160. That's how you would have to write it.


it doesn't matter how you programmed it, the feel is unmistakably a tempo change. so you just did it the hard way. i bet the math would come out to be equivalent to a tempo change too.
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#11
It is basically what you guys said. I mapped out the whole song in groups of 5's, and made that intro drum beat as close as I could to sounding like a 4/4 beat, which have it a slight shuffle. Then just used those. But I think you can call it 4/5 because 4/4 is just grouped in 4's, you just don't illustrate it.
#13
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
It is basically what you guys said. I mapped out the whole song in groups of 5's


So it's 5/4 then. 4/5 doesn't make sense cause there's no note "represented" by the number 5.
#14
Quote by Cavalcade
Haven't heard it, but the answer is no.

The way time signatures work is you have the numerator, which is the number of denominators you have in a bar. If my quarter notes are grouped in 5's I would consider that to make them 5th notes, and you have 4 of them. A fifth note has 5 8th notes in it.
#15
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
It is basically what you guys said. I mapped out the whole song in groups of 5's, and made that intro drum beat as close as I could to sounding like a 4/4 beat, which have it a slight shuffle. Then just used those. But I think you can call it 4/5 because 4/4 is just grouped in 4's, you just don't illustrate it.

Irrational time signatures can always be written out in a rational manner. The only few times when they are useful is when you juxtaposed them with rational time signatures and use them sparingly. You could solve your problem using metric modulation. 4/5 would imply the base value is a semibreve divided into 5 notes of equal duration and then you have 4 of those making up a full bar. And in your situation that's a gratuitous use of irrational time signatures.
#16
Beginning seems 5:4 notes in 4/4, just like triplets are 3:2 notes in 4/4.
Time sig change at 2mins 5/4, bass drum at beats 1,3,5.
But I mean you composed the song and know this already so I don't really get this thread
#17
The drum beat is in 4/4 (with shuffle) and that's why the first part is in 4/4. You are just playing quintuplets over it. Then the time signature changes to 5/4.
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#18
Yes actually, this time signature does exist, this is called an irrational time signature. Basically it means you are subdividing a meter by things that aren't there. Here we have a bar of 4 beats subdivided into groups of 5 (quintuplets), making a 4/5 phrase. Irrational meters are almost never used as unless you are writing lots of different rhythms and meters, you could just as easily write it as 4/4. Wikipedia has a page on this, and Axeofcreation did an episode on it that you should check out, where he plays a phrase in 7/3. Pretty interesting stuff. I should note that this whole thread made my head explode from confusion, irrational meters are nuts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVfJvU3VEPo
#19
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
The way time signatures work is you have the numerator, which is the number of denominators you have in a bar. If my quarter notes are grouped in 5's I would consider that to make them 5th notes, and you have 4 of them. A fifth note has 5 8th notes in it.

What? No. If your quarter notes are grouped in 5 you have a group of 5 quarter notes. A fifth note doesn't exist. 4/5 would mean that there are 4 notes 1/5th the length of an entire bar of the previous time signature. In essence it's just a tempo change.
#21
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
What? No. If your quarter notes are grouped in 5 you have a group of 5 quarter notes. A fifth note doesn't exist. 4/5 would mean that there are 4 notes 1/5th the length of an entire bar of the previous time signature. In essence it's just a tempo change.

Take that group of 5 quarter notes and use 4 to make a new quarter note.

Edit
55555-55555-55555-55555
4/4 using groups of 5

5555-5555-5555-5555-5555
What is this then?
Last edited by jrcsgtpeppers at Nov 30, 2013,
#22
^ You are just using quintuplets in 4/4.
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#23
But honestly I didn't do any grouping. Or tempo changes. How can that be if it wasn't what I did? In guitar pro you can click the triplet button change it to quin and bam. Or click the tempo and change it. But I did neither of those for I don't even know how in fruity loops.
#24
The tempo kind of changes but kind of doesn't. Let's take another example - 4/4 time with triplets. First you have four beats in the bar but then change it so that you accent every second note. It may not sound like a tempo change but it really is because it also changes the time signature. In your case one part of the quintuplet becomes a 4th. In my example one part of the 8th triplet becomes an 8th. The tempo changes but it doesn't really sound like it changes. This kind of tempo changes are really usual because they sound smooth (for example dotted 8th becomes the 4th).
Quote by AlanHB
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#25
I think it's simpler than that. You have one bar. Breat it up into 4. Quarter notes. Break it up into 5. Fifth notes.
#26
The thing is, there are no "5th notes". How would you write 5th notes?

Come on, the intro of the song is clearly in 4/4. It's the same as I can use triplets in 4/4. And if I use triplets, it doesn't become like 4/3. You are just using quintuplets. Triplets and quintuplets are pretty similar - triplets just are so much more common.

I gave you an example of using triplets similarly as in your song. First play triplets in 4/4. Then start accenting every second note. The beat changes and it's no longer in 4/4 - it's another tempo - one 8th triplet note becomes an 8th note and the time signature changes to 6/4. In your case one quintuplet note becomes a quarter note and the time signature changes to 5/4.

If you want me to record my example, OK, I can do it. Or actually I know one song that uses it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8-fSMfNq-k

First it feels like normal 4/4 but then drums start accenting every third 8th in the original tempo. There is a tempo change because the new time signature is also 4/4 but just with a triplet feel.
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#28
Fifth notes are the same a quarter notes. Quarter of a bar. Fifth of a bar. Divide a bar into 5 equal parts and you have fifth notes. Use 5 5th notes and you take up the same amount of time as 4 4th notes. If I use 4 5th notes it takes up 4/5ths of a bar.
I didn't do any grouping. I don't know how to group in fruity loops.
#29
you can argue and call it whatever meter you want, but... you're saying that it doesn't sound like a tempo change to you?

i understand what you mean by a "fifth note." but using fifth notes in any way that draws attention to the fact that they are fifth notes (i.e. juxtaposing with fourth notes) will sound like a mess. you likely noticed this, and as a result you came up with something that does in fact use fifth notes according to the tempo you programmed, but really reduces to something simpler when played to the ear.
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#30
I understand what is being said, I just feel as if I havent explained myself clearly enough.

Imagine we have 5/4. (10/8, 20/16). You are using 5 quarter notes to make up 1 bar of music. 5/4 time would have a kick placed 5 times every 4 16th notes. 4/5 time would have a kick every 5 16th notes.

https://soundcloud.com/totally-tubular/ignore-this-song
First part is in 4/4 at a different time signature than the second or is the first part just 4/5? It makes more sense to not change tempo and just write it as 4/5.
#31
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
Fifth notes are the same a quarter notes. Quarter of a bar. Fifth of a bar. Divide a bar into 5 equal parts and you have fifth notes. Use 5 5th notes and you take up the same amount of time as 4 4th notes. If I use 4 5th notes it takes up 4/5ths of a bar.
I didn't do any grouping. I don't know how to group in fruity loops.

It doesn't work that way. You may not have grouped, but that's what naturally worked out.
#32
Oh well then, if you cant write it as 4/5 and you have to write it as 4/4 at a different bpm then fine.
#33
That's the funny thing about music. It doesn't really matter what you wrote or programmed into fruity loops. It's what it sounds like that matters. And to me it just sounds like a tempo change (and to most other listeners as well) so that's what it is.

A 1/5 note doesn't exist as a separate entity than a 1/4 note. What does it look like? How would you notate it in standard notation? You can't because it's not a real thing, it's an illusion only caused by accenting notes differently, which is just syncopation. Take for instance the concept of the Hemiola. Does that change time signatures? No, it's just metric modulation.

Irrational meter does exist, but I really don't think this is it.
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#34
I know a 7th note would look like a double dotted quarter note.

I think it is easier to write the song as 4/5 rather than make everything into quintuplets at a different tempo.

edit: i just have a problem with the tempo change because the background doesnt change at all. how would you notate the background if the tempo changed on drums but not on keys?
Last edited by jrcsgtpeppers at Dec 1, 2013,
#35
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers
I know a 7th note would look like a double dotted quarter note.

And no one would call that a "7th note". They'd just say, "It's a note that is sustained for the duration of a quarter note, an eighth note, and a sixteenth note." They'd probably even notate it that way.

I think it is easier to write the song as 4/5 rather than make everything into quintuplets at a different tempo.

And get laughed at by anyone who knows that you don't actually have an irrational tempo.

edit: i just have a problem with the tempo change because the background doesnt change at all. how would you notate the background if the tempo changed on drums but not on keys?

The overall tempo changed, regardless of whether your keys changed.
#36
How do you notate a tempo change for drums and not keys? What makes the drums count towards overall tempo more so than every other instrument playing at one tempo that never changes?
#37
Did you listen to the Dream Theater song I posted? It uses tempo changes - guitar plays the same all the time but drums change the tempo.

Music doesn't work on paper. Music is all about sound. And I know what you are talking about. One quintuplet note becomes a quarter note and the other instruments don't really change tempo - just like in the Dream Theater song. Only drums change tempo. But drums are the most important rhythm instrument (I mean, they pretty much determine which time signature and tempo you are playing in). This kind of tempo changes are very usual. As I said, same thing happens in the Dream Theater song. Guitar plays the same rhythm all the time but drums change between faster triplet feel 4/4 beat and slower straight 4/4 beat.
Quote by AlanHB
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#38
I didn't hear any tempo changes. I heard one tempo with time changes. You can't just change the bpm of one instrument
#39
i get the impression that all you want to hear is "holy shit, you're really creative and advanced and went way outside the box with some crazy ideas", so if i say that can we take this thread off life support and let it fade away
#40
If crotchets in your original tempo was 160, the new tempo for fitfth notes as you called it is now 128. It is still to be written in 4/4.
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