#1
I am wondering if there is a tool that will help me to easily identify what relationship two chords share. E.g., C and G (G is the V chord in the key of C). Obviously, I want this to identify harder relationships than a I-V. I hope that by analyzing different kinds of songs' chord progressions (especially bridges and middle 8's) I can learn how to go right to "that sound" I am hearing in my head when writing music.

So again, does anyone know of an internet site, application, or java script that calculates the relationship between one root note and another?

-Rock
#2
I am wondering if there is a tool that will help me to easily identify what relationship two chords share.


The one between your ears.

Quickly identifying the interval between any two notes isn't that hard. If you practice it, you will get it pretty quickly.
#6
Quote by charlesdevin366
So what is Bbsus4 in the key of F? What kind of a third?


You are crippling yourself if you don't train yourself to figure that out quickly.

It won't take very long for you to only have to think about it for two seconds (far less time than it would take to enter it in a program) to know the answer.

One thing that may help you while you're learning this is to visualize it on the fretboard. You just need to know the notes on the bottom three strings to do this (or really the bottom two, since you can use octaves to cheat on the D string).

Do you know where an F note is on the low E string? Do you know where a Bb is on the A string?

Can you picture the relationship of those two spots to each other?
#7
Quote by charlesdevin366
I am wondering if there is a tool that will help me to easily identify what relationship two chords share. E.g., C and G (G is the V chord in the key of C). Obviously, I want this to identify harder relationships than a I-V. I hope that by analyzing different kinds of songs' chord progressions (especially bridges and middle 8's) I can learn how to go right to "that sound" I am hearing in my head when writing music.

So again, does anyone know of an internet site, application, or java script that calculates the relationship between one root note and another?

-Rock


the problem is that if you use an external application, you're not going to get "that sound". you're getting nothing more than a meaningless list of possibilities of what the chord you're looking for might be.

it all comes with training, experience, and practice. there are no shortcuts to skill.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#8
Quote by charlesdevin366
err fourth...


Umm did you just answer your own question? IVsus4?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#9
You are asking music theory forum to direct you to an application that does a basic theoretical procedure for you.

No one expects you to just list these things off the top of your head, but being able to work it out, even if it takes pen and paper, is much better for you. As you do this more and more, you'll get better and faster at it. The only way to be able to write and play "that sound" in your head is by practicing these skills. There are no shortcuts.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#10
I don't know if I'm explaining this very well. I just want to transcribe chord progressions of songs to see, for instance, in what cases a person will change the verse's regular progression. I.e., I-IV-V, I-IV-V, I-IV-V7, I-IV-V. Another example in description might be when a band is approaching the part of the song that takes a new direction from the routine. I want to see what chord they use to keep that forward momentum and keep making it interesting. I've seen a trick where they just start playing the song one half step up from the original positions but I've also seen them make the middle chord of a progression the first and continue the cycle.

If not a program, how do you calculate the relation of a chord without running through the order of sharps, flats, in the major and minor scales and beyond?
#11
And in response to Hotspur, I can locate notes on the fret board but I don't see what that has to do with my question unless I have implied that by 'relations' I mean spacial relation. This is not what I mean. I know where that F is in relation to that Bb on a fret board (11xxxx). Can this be applied to finding chord progressions?
#12
Quote by charlesdevin366
If not a program, how do you calculate the relation of a chord without running through the order of sharps, flats, in the major and minor scales and beyond?

By training your ear to hear it's harmonic function.
#13
I would appreciate it if you kept the pretentious one liners to yourself. Please give me an example to elaborate on your response.
Last edited by charlesdevin366 at Dec 5, 2013,
#14
Quote by charlesdevin366
I would appreciate it if you kept the pretentious one liners to yourself. Please give me an example to elaborate on your response.


Wow that just came out of nowhere. Can you listen to a song and find the key?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#15
Quote by charlesdevin366
I would appreciate it if you kept the pretentious one liners to yourself. Please give me an example to elaborate on your response.

Pretentious? What? I was giving advice, I was in no way trying to come off as condescending or anything I don't need to type out everything, there are so many places on the internet where you can find this stuff. Search "Solfeggi" or "solfege training" and "Functional Harmony" and you will get hundreds if not thousands of lessons and training methods for them.
#16
All we are telling you is learn your theory and train your ear.

Do you want to put the work in or not?
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#17
Quote by macashmack
By training your ear to hear it's harmonic function.


Well, to be fair, the OP may actually be asking for tips or tools on how to train his ear to the harmonic functions of chords, albeit in different terminology. An explanation on how the ear gets trained to detect this might be useful. I mean, simply learning and playing songs will help it seep in, but I expect there are more focused methods of training, including sofflege programs (sp?), but who knows what works, or how long it takes?

Regarding the interval thing being easy, I would note that I used an interval training program every day for like a month and I was still missing easy intervals. My overall accuracy rate was slowly improving, but when I read people saying how it won't take long to teach your ear to recognize intervals, keys, or whatever, I kind of wince, because that's not my experience. And it can be setting the person up for frustration if it does not happen overnight.

To the OP:

You mentioned that moment in songs when it goes off in a new way that seems to keep it moving, or add energy or whatever. I personally laid out the chord progressions from my favorite songs that seemed to have something special happen midway through, to try to discern that very thing. After doing this for over a hundred songs, I kind of came to the conclusion that there's no simple formula. I mean, some songs that I liked had a minor chord that shifted to a major chord, and it sounded great, but when I tried putting it in a song, it did not sound right because all the surrounding chords did not flow with it.

People talk sometimes about the feeling of particular chord changes, like you can just memorize these relationships and then create a musical journey. However, in my own experience, it seems like the feeling of changing from one chord to another depends, to large extent, on what chords came even earlier, and what chords come later and, of course, what key you are in, and you can't discount melody, percussion, etc.
Bernie Sanders for President!
#18
I just want to know how to find an intervallic significance to chord progressions. I was planning on doing exactly what krm27 has done and map out a bunch of songs in the hopes that patterns would emerge. The ear training itself would be ideal and I practice the simple ones but I'm having a hard time applying that to making chord progressions.

And I can't tell, I guess, but some of the remarks struck me as pretty condescending. If not, #*%# me and I apologize but as important as the ear training is there simply must be a short cut bot somewhere to help get the ball rolling. Thanks though for replying, that's pretty cool.
#19
You could set up excel to do this for you. A worksheet that charts the data in each key and another with a few "if, then" rules.

This is something that comes very quickly with just a little practice though.

Of course you can't work out how to work the "if then" rules in Excel then you could just write out a chart in each key and look each one up.

EDIT: In fact if you write the excel rules correctly you wouldn't even have to chart out each key.
Si
#20
I doubt a program could accomodate for key changes in the middle of a song or non-diatonic chords. It would have the same issues as scale generator programs.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#21
That is so weird, I started entering songs and their chord progressions into Excel yesterday. I am just going off of the chord tabs on this site for now. I don't know how to work excel either so I am just manually entering data and using it for the organization. If there's a cooler way to do this, I'm game. I have an android app called Chord! which has a extensive harmonizing, scales, and chording options but I think I'm too inexperienced to use it well.

Just to be clear ivsus4 isn't a thing right? Degrees can only be aug,dim,maj,or min yeah?
#22
An IVsus4 is a sus4 chord built off the 4th degree of the key.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#23
Devin, In the key of E, what would these chords be?

ii - V7 - Imaj7 - IVmaj7 - ivm7 - bII - V

Do you understand what those are, and why their written that way?

Answer:

F#m - B7 - Emaj7 - Amaj7 - C#m7 - F - B
#24
Quote by macashmack
Devin, In the key of E, what would these chords be?

ii - V7 - Imaj7 - IVmaj7 - ivm7 - bII - V

Do you understand what those are, and why their written that way?

Answer:

F#m - B7 - Emaj7 - Amaj7 - C#m7 - F - B

You mean vim7, not ivm7?
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#25
why not just learn the material

having actually read this thread now, please don't accuse me of firing off a "pretentious one-liner" - i gave you the correct answer
Last edited by :-D at Dec 6, 2013,
#27
Quote by charlesdevin366
And in response to Hotspur, I can locate notes on the fret board but I don't see what that has to do with my question unless I have implied that by 'relations' I mean spacial relation. This is not what I mean. I know where that F is in relation to that Bb on a fret board (11xxxx). Can this be applied to finding chord progressions?


Well, the way you asked the question originally, it read like you knew what the two chords were and just wanted to know their relationship.

From your later rephrasing, it's harder to tell. Maybe you are asking how do you figure out what a second chord is by listening? I don't think so, but maybe not.

As for their spatial relationship, if they're adjacent notes on the E and A string then they are a 4th apart. You can use that as a shortcut. A semitone down and the interval is a major third, etc.

But it's hard to tell since I really don't understand what you're trying to do.
#28
Originally, I wanted to know if there was a program that I could, for instance, input a key (E) and another chord (G7) and get something like V7 or something. My logic was that it would get me started doing what I wanted to do, map chord progressions, and lead me into learning more about the theory with a focus on playing the songs that I like.

Thank you all for your support. To macashmack;

minor second - major fifth dominate 7? - tonic major 7 - minor fourth minor 7 - major 2nd flat? - major fifth

The 7 chords are simply 4, as opposed to 3,note chords that add a 7th of some quality to the chord, yes?
#29
Quote by AlanHB
Umm did you just answer your own question? IVsus4?
We should probably mention, that in the key of F major, Bb is the "IV" chord. BUT, the sus4 NOTE of of Bb is Eb, and that is a b7th in the key of F major.

(I kind of viewed the OP as this, "how do I determine the relationship of the notes in an extended chord, to the scale degree of the key being played).

Yeah, I over-thought it, so what....??

Quote by charlesdevin366
minor second - major fifth dominate 7? - tonic major 7 - minor fourth minor 7 - major 2nd flat? - major fifth

The 7 chords are simply 4, as opposed to 3,note chords that add a 7th of some quality to the chord, yes?
You have to know what key and context a chord is in, to determine either the note, or the scale degree you're mapping.

But yes, in the larger sense, only major, minor, sus2, sus4, diminished, or augmented chords are triads. All other chords have 4 or more notes, and are considered, "extended chords.

As far as context goes, even in the same key, Am7, and C6, are the same 4 notes. One way to determine context might be to find out what note is in the bass, which would also likely be the root.

You don't have to play all 4 note of an extended chord, to have it function as intended. I believe you can omit the root (!), and still name the chord after it.

As far as your actual (?) question goes, you have to learn all the notes in the major and minor scales you're dealing with, BEFORE you can attach a numerical extension to any chord.

In my example to Allen, in F major, "Bbsus4" presents a b7th to the scale. BUT, in Eb major, Bb is the "V" (5) chord, and the "sus4" NOTE, is actually the tonic of the key. (Eb)
Last edited by Captaincranky at Dec 6, 2013,
#30
Quote by charlesdevin366
minor second - major fifth dominate 7? - tonic major 7 - minor fourth minor 7 - major 2nd flat? - major fifth

Major 5ths don't exist. Study the basics.
#31
Quote by charlesdevin366
minor second - major fifth dominate 7? - tonic major 7 - minor fourth minor 7 - major 2nd flat? - major fifth

The 7 chords are simply 4, as opposed to 3,note chords that add a 7th of some quality to the chord, yes?
Quote by mdc
Major 5ths don't exist. Study the basics.
I'm holding out until someone explains what a, "dominate" chord is.

Is that anything like a "dominate 69th".........??
#32
Quote by Captaincranky
I'm holding out until someone explains what a, "dominate" chord is.

Is that anything like a "dominate 69th".........??

The dominant chord is built off the 5th scale degree. A dominant function means that the chord makes things unstable and requires (read: most ideal) the tonic to keep things kosher. At the most basic level, the chords built off the 5 and 7th scale degree serve dominant functions.

This is why many chord progressions end with V - I cadences, as it makes things sound the most complete.

TS, this is pretty basic stuff. There is no problem in not knowing this stuff, but it really helps things go along. Learning theory and training your ear are the best way to get the stuff you hear in your head and out of your fingers. There is a reason that university music programs make you learn theory and train your ear: YOU have the ability to the best music interpretation program.

A good ear will help you immensely, and good theory knowledge will help serve as a guide because lots of music follows patterns that emerge as you become aware of them. You've already done this. You know about the half-step key change and the changing of the tonal center. This is great. It may not seem like much, but it's like learning a language. To use it as an analogy, you're getting to know information about basic "noun-verb" sentences. But there is much more to learn about grammar and syntax and it can seem daunting, but it is possible if you do the work. Using a chart will only hinder you. You just need to learn and practice what you've learned.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#33
Quote by charlesdevin366
Originally, I wanted to know if there was a program that I could, for instance, input a key (E) and another chord (G7) and get something like V7 or something. My logic was that it would get me started doing what I wanted to do, map chord progressions, and lead me into learning more about the theory with a focus on playing the songs that I like.

Thank you all for your support. To macashmack;

minor second - major fifth dominate 7? - tonic major 7 - minor fourth minor 7 - major 2nd flat? - major fifth

The 7 chords are simply 4, as opposed to 3,note chords that add a 7th of some quality to the chord, yes
?

But what are those chords in the key of E? Give us chord names like E major, D minor, F diminished, etc.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#34
Quote by MaggaraMarine
But what are those chords in the key of E? Give us chord names like E major, D minor, F diminished, etc.
Forget about TS, I can't float a simple joke / innuendo, off his misspelling of dominant 7, (sic), "dominate 7", without getting a lecture about what a "dominant 7th chord" is.
#35
Quote by Captaincranky
Forget about TS, I can't float a simple joke / innuendo, off his misspelling of dominant 7, (sic), "dominate 7", without getting a lecture about what a "dominant 7th chord" is.


It is in a consensual, power exchange based relationship with a submissive 4th

#36
Quote by charlesdevin366
Originally, I wanted to know if there was a program that I could, for instance, input a key (E) and another chord (G7) and get something like V7 or something. My logic was that it would get me started doing what I wanted to do, map chord progressions, and lead me into learning more about the theory with a focus on playing the songs that I like.


Fair enough. In this case, visualizing things on the fretboard should help.

On the bottom two strings, the physical relationship between the two notes is always the same interval. eg, the third fret on the fifth and sixth string is a 4th. The third fret on the sixth and the second on the fifth is a major third. Third fret on the sixth and the first fret on the fifth is a minor third, etc.

That's why I talked about visualizing it. If you have a hard time remembering where the sharps and flats are, or don't want to count it out, then being able to visualize it should instantly tell you what the relationship is.
#37
Oh FFS just learn the theory. It might take one whole hour from your life.

Step 1) Learn how to make a scale

Step 2) Number the chords formed by the scale
Last edited by cdgraves at Dec 7, 2013,
#38
Quote by rockingamer2
The dominant chord is built off the 5th scale degree. A dominant function means that the chord makes things unstable and requires (read: most ideal) the tonic to keep things kosher. At the most basic level, the chords built off the 5 and 7th scale degree serve dominant functions.

This is why many chord progressions end with V - I cadences, as it makes things sound the most complete.

was the joke really not obvious
#39
Quote by :-D
was the joke really not obvious
OK then, let's move from the patently obvious, to the manifestly blatant! For your viewing pleasure, or disdain, as the case may be, I present, "the dominate chord":


Quote by Sean0913
It is in a consensual, power exchange based relationship with a submissive 4th


Sean, good one!

(Although I feel "compelled" to mention, you skipped over the "passive aggressive 3rd"... )
Last edited by Captaincranky at Dec 7, 2013,
#40
Quote by :-D
was the joke really not obvious

I'll admit, I skimmed over some responses.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK