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#1
Hey

I'm bit confused with intervals. Lets say i'm playing in C Major and the perfect fifth is there for G.

Now lets say the key is changed to C Dorian. Does the perfect fifth still remain G even though the key is C dorian ?

Or is the perfect fifth actually the 4th (at least in dorian)? Or is the perfect fifth always G in the key of A regardless of the mode your in ?
#2
It's based on the amount of semitones from one note to another. The perfect fifth of a C will always be a G, like the major third of D will always be F#, regardless of the key.
#3
C dorian isn't a key, it's mode.

You would never play a G chord in the mode of C dorian as it would cause the mode to be the key of G major with a V - i cadence.

Where you're getting confused is:

- The chords of a key are created by harmonising notes within the scale
- Modes are a different form on tonality to keysp
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#4
So what notes would i want to emphasis most in C Dorian to avoid it being C major ?

I'm also not following why a G chord could not be part of the backing track whilst playing over C dorian ?
#5
Quote by thefollower
So what notes would i want to emphasis most in C Dorian to avoid it being C major ?

I'm also not following why a G chord could not be part of the backing track whilst playing over C dorian ?


Well, C Dorian is totally different from C major, it has two accidentals and the C is actually minor. Also, G major could not be part of C dorian because you don't have the major third. If you played G major it would cause it to be a V- i cadence, as AlanHB said.
#6
I thought in C dorian the G would be G minor not major.... where are you getting G major from ?
#7
Quote by thefollower
I thought in C dorian the G would be G minor not major.... where are you getting G major from ?

I'm not even sure you're ready for modes...

Just ignore modes and focus on mastering the use of major and minor keys.
#8
LOL...all these terms just confusing ya.

perfect, major or natraul has the same meaning.
Major3, perfect 4th, perfect 5th....ect

People use romans to identify chords I, II, III, IV and so on and so forth.

They use names such as ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian...to identify scales or modes.

Dorian is the second degree or 2, or II. Phrygian is III
So if I was to play a C dorain. The parent scale wound be in the key of Bb.
Bb, C, D , Eb, F, G, A
The perfect 5th in that scale is F. So G is the 6th

Chords...
I, IV, V = maj
II, III, VI = min
VII = min

Dorian is minor. So it has a flat 3. It also has a flat 7.
In C dorain...that's the Eb and Bb....

The diatonic sequence is still being use as a reference (you know it as the C major scale)
So when we start the count from the second degree ...you have to warp it.lmao

The C major scale is your refernce piont for everything because it donst have sharps
or flats. In other words all the note are PERFECT to that sequence.
Thats why all those Keys on the piano are painted White...
White peaple are perfect?

So when you write out a C dorain it looks like this.

C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb

Chords are just every other note...Its not as complicates as some poeple make it.
In the key of Bb

Bb, D, F
C, Eb, G
D, F, A
Eb,G,Bb
F, A, C
G, Bb, D
A, C, Eb

If you extended it. Use the same procedure

C, Eb, G,Bb...ect
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 11, 2014,
#9
Quote by thefollower
Hey

I'm bit confused with intervals. Lets say i'm playing in C Major and the perfect fifth is there for G.

Now lets say the key is changed to C Dorian. Does the perfect fifth still remain G even though the key is C dorian ?

Or is the perfect fifth actually the 4th (at least in dorian)? Or is the perfect fifth always G in the key of A regardless of the mode your in ?


interval's is like an identifier it tell's you what a note is from the distance of another note
you would say it's a dorian scale from the make up of the interval's

a dorian scale has a raised 6th degree so if the scale ur looking at is different
from a natural min scale because it has a raised 6th u know it's dorian
#10
Well, there is one big confusion here with modes. If I were you, I'd drop modes until your knowledge of music theory improves since it'll only lead to confusion. It's like learning limits in calculus before you know how to multiply and divide.

Let's move on to intervals already. An interval is a spacing between two different notes or pitches. Intervals are the measure of half steps, or semitones, between two notes. No matter the circumstance, the relationship from a C to a G will always be a perfect 5th interval. In a C major scale, the G note will a perfect 5th. Even in a C natural minor or C phyrgian scale, the G note will always be the perfect 5th. I recommend that you check out The Crusades or musictheory.net for help with music theory.

I hope I helped you out with intervals. I linked you to two great sources for learning music theory. If you ever have any questions or need clarifications, feel free to send me a pm and I'll gladly help you out.


Sidenote: A key is the tonal center of the piece. In simpler terms, it's where the music feels resolved or "at home". To prove this, play a C F G7 progression and you'll hear that the G7 chord will want to lead somewhere. Now play a C F G7 C progression and you'll hear how the progression resolves to the C major chord. This will mean that the progression is C major.

Since I know you're a bit confused about intervals, I won't go into detail about keys in fear of confusing you more so. Just remember that keys can only be major or minor and are completely seprate entities from scales.
Skip the username, call me Billy
#11
In the daitonic scale there's whole step between the perfect 4th and perfect 5th.

There's a semi tone between the 7th and 8 (octive) which is call the leading tone.
That semi tone leads into the root.

When you use the circle of 5th. All you're doing is changing the 4th.
When you go towards the # side. you're just changing it into a leading tone.
Raise the 4th a semi tone or 1/2 step.

When you cycle to the b side. It just turns into the Root. The 3rd becomes a leading tone
becuase there's semi tone, already.
You drop the 7th (origianal leading tone) a semi tone to create a whole step between the 4th and 5th.

When you play a MAJOR PENTATONIC (5 notes) a pentagon....
The 4th and 7th are dropped....imagine that?????
Becuase these are the 2 notes that are going to shift...when you use the circle
of 5th.


Just remember the Dominate (5th) will have a flat 7.
Thats becuase there's a whole step between the 4th and 5th. If you start the count
from the 5th position.

In I, IV, V...

Cmaj7, Fmaj7, G7.
Thats how you'll also know what key you're in..just by seeing it's dominate chord.
It call a dominate for reasons...The 5th note will dominate the rest of the tones or
notes in the scale, aside from the root. Especailly when you play piano.

Thats why you can get away with just playing a simple power chord. Root and 5th.

The third is call a Midtant for reasons...thats because it sit in the middle
of the Root and Dominate.
The 6th is call a submidiant becuase it has the same interval 1 1/2 tone to the Root.
As a 3rd to the dominate.

The 2nd is call the supertonic (greater) becuase it has a (add)full tone from the root.
The 4th is call the subdominate (less) becuase a whole tone less than the dominate.
Just terms how poeple use to talk back when

K...so u kind of grasp things as you go and notice patterns. The 1 1/2 interval.
As I said chords are just every other notes.
From the supertonic to the subdominae there's also a 1 1/2 interval.
Thats why those Chords are minor becuase they all fit like that or will simply
have a -3rd.
Not becuase some dude had a bright idea to assign those chords as minor just for kicks.

It's the very same reason why the dominate chord has to have a flat 7.
Thats why it's call MIXolyian mode.
The front part of the scale has a major sound. The second half has a minor sound.
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 14, 2014,
#12
Quote by smc818

Thats why it's call MIXolyian mode.
The front part of the scale has a major sound. The second half has a minor sound.


I'm almost 100% sure that's not the reason why it's called mixolydian
"I agree with Matthew about everything" - Everyone
#13
Quote by MattyBoy 1337
I'm almost 100% sure that's not the reason why it's called mixolydian


Yeah...I know right. It has to be stupid complicated for to make sense to ya.
The I and IV chords has two whole tones from the dominate to the leading tone.
Imagine that.....

There's only 12 semi tones in a chromatic scale. Just like there's a double dotted
inlay on the fretboard.

Magically we're going to get 30 keys out of that using different words for the
complicated people.lmao
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 14, 2014,
#14
30 keys? complicated people? What do inlays have to do with anything? I'm sorry, I've read your posts but I can never seem to understand you
"I agree with Matthew about everything" - Everyone
#17
Im wondering what's the dominate to -7 are going to be in minor chords or modes.
You wanna figure that one out for me..mattyboy?
#18
Quote by smc818


It's the very same reason why the dominate chord has to have a flat 7.
Thats why it's call MIXolyian mode.
The front part of the scale has a major sound. The second half has a minor sound.


yea man i get it , so there MIXING a lydian sound with a MAJ 3rd

making it MIXO-lydian ,like mixing it up . WOW great observation makes so much sense .

what about the other mode names how are they derived ?

i guess Ionian , is like "I-OWN-YOUN's" sense it's the MAJ scale and it's the boss.
and everything is derived from the BOSS MAJ scale .

I think i got it now , if i can just think of the other 5 scale's I will rule mode's .
#19
Quote by smc818
Im wondering what's the dominate to -7 are going to be in minor chords or modes.
You wanna figure that one out for me..mattyboy?


I'd love to answer the question, but I honestly can't understand it. Something about dominant and minor 7ths?
"I agree with Matthew about everything" - Everyone
#20
Quote by MattyBoy 1337
30 keys? complicated people? What do inlays have to do with anything? I'm sorry, I've read your posts but I can never seem to understand you

Lol, I was thinking the same.
#21
Quote by MattyBoy 1337
I'd love to answer the question, but I honestly can't understand it. Something about dominant and minor 7ths?


You can back pedal. You forget or went brain dead all of a sudden.
I play the lead guitar becuase I can be an egotistic prick too

Obviously 1 1/2 tone is the answer.
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 14, 2014,
#22
I'm not sure, but are you trying to insult me? I couldn't answer the question because I didn't understand it. And I don't understand how 1 1/2 tones has to do with dominant and minor 7ths.
"I agree with Matthew about everything" - Everyone
#24
Quote by smc818
Magically we're going to get 30 keys out of that using different words for the complicated people.lmao

No no no, there's total of 24 keys. Modes are not the same thing as keys and should not be treated as such.
Join the 7 String Legion!

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Official Approval
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#25
Quote by MattyBoy 1337
I'm not sure, but are you trying to insult me? I couldn't answer the question because I didn't understand it. And I don't understand how 1 1/2 tones has to do with dominant and minor 7ths.


Well..matty, obviously you dont read. This is a thread about intervals.
Lets go back to the basic again. I figure since you came at me like that I already knew.

It's either going to be ..you know or you dont

What makes a minor chord a minor chord? What note determind that?
What's the interval from the root to that note?
Use your fingers if you must. We're not even doing simple algebra.
You can hear it matty.
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 15, 2014,
#26
Quote by Mister A.J.
No no no, there's total of 24 keys. Modes are not the same thing as keys and should not be treated as such.


yeah sure dude...tell that to some people....
They're gonna come at you with those 3 overlaps and nit pick you to death.
Start adding double flats...FFS

Even in HS we came across songs in Sharp keys...but it'll have a flat symbal next
to some notes. That stuff was printed in ink...dude.
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 15, 2014,
#27
Quote by smc818
yeah sure dude...tell that to some people....
They're gonna come at you with those 3 overlaps and nit pick you to death.
Start adding double flats...FFS

Double flats or sharps aren't ever written in the key signature because there's a simplified enharmonic variant of the key you're messing with. There are theoretical keys that contain them, but if you write a part out in a theoretical key, you will be well-hated.

The enharmonic variants don't really come into play until you need to simplify a key signature. An example is Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 14 in C# minor, as the second movement is in the simplified version of the parallel major key. Now, when you write parts out for people, you generally want to avoid seven sharps or flats and use the enharmonic equivalents where necessary.

That aside, there are only 24 keys in the key system. All it takes is some mathematic skills to see that. Jumping off that end, there are 12 unique tones in the chromatic scale, and each one can have two different flavors of keys built off of it, major and minor. So, going from that, 12x2 is 24. Modes don't count because they're not keys, they're part of a different, eponymous system.


P.S. to the ridiculously smart people, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm still mostly in the process of putting all of this together.
Join the 7 String Legion!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Messiaen is Magical


Official Approval
This message has been approved by:

Mister A.J.
Head of the Department of Redundancy Department
Mister A.J.
#28
Quote by Mister A.J.
Double flats or sharps aren't ever written in the key signature because there's a simplified enharmonic variant of the key you're messing with. There are theoretical keys that contain them, but if you write a part out in a theoretical key, you will be well-hated.

The enharmonic variants don't really come into play until you need to simplify a key signature. An example is Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 14 in C# minor, as the second movement is in the simplified version of the parallel major key. Now, when you write parts out for people, you generally want to avoid seven sharps or flats and use the enharmonic equivalents where necessary.

That aside, there are only 24 keys in the key system. All it takes is some mathematic skills to see that. Jumping off that end, there are 12 unique tones in the chromatic scale, and each one can have two different flavors of keys built off of it, major and minor. So, going from that, 12x2 is 24. Modes don't count because they're not keys, they're part of a different, eponymous system.


P.S. to the ridiculously smart people, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm still mostly in the process of putting all of this together.


Im not talking about modes...Im talking about those overlap keys.
I guess we're going to have to apply algebra now.hahaaaa
(12+3)2=?
There's only 12 pitch in 1 octive...the rest are all relative to me.lol

Anyways....

Root, -3rd, 4th.....these intervals are the same as from 5th, -7th , oct.
When you play togther, most people just call it a min pentatonic.

You can play them harnomically if you wish.
Meaning striking at corrosponding notes at the sam time
(root and 5th) (-3 and -7) (4th and octive)
It'll look like power chords.lol
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 15, 2014,
#29
Quote by smc818
Im not talking about modes...Im talking about those overlap keys.
I guess we're going to have to apply algebra now.hahaaaa
(12+3)2=?
There's only 12 pitch in 1 octive...the rest are all relative to me.lol

Anyways....

Root, -3rd, 4th.....these intervals are the same as from 5th, -7th , oct.
When you play togther, most people just call it a min pentatonic.

You can play them harnomically if you wish.
Meaning striking at corrosponding notes at the sam time
(root and 5th) (-3 and -7) (4th and octive)
It'll look like power chords.lol


This is almost worth sigging!
#31
Quote by Jehannum
This is almost worth sigging!


right...you're brain dead and getting silly too.

Everybody knows about those overlaping keys. That's elementary stuff.
If you're gonna try to take me school on music theory at least do your home work
and get it right. I personally dont really care. It donst mean I havnt been properly taught. Im positive I was taught in depth about scales and intervals.
Not just knowing the 1/2 steps between the 3,4....7,8. Then playing them in different keys or playing them from a different root within a scale.

The thing about it. Matty is always remember about the Dominate note, aside
from the Root.lol If he choose to play C7, F7 and G7 as I, IV, V movement.
At least he'll know why. Even if in theory he shouldnt.
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 15, 2014,
#32
Quote by smc818
Well..matty, obviously you dont read. This is a thread about intervals.
Lets go back to the basic again. I figure since you came at me like that I already knew.

It's either going to be ..you know or you dont

What makes a minor chord a minor chord? What note determind that?
What's the interval from the root to that note?
Use your fingers if you must. We're not even doing simple algebra.
You can hear it matty.


I think you're being very condescending. I'm well aware of what a minor third is. and I know what makes a minor chord (and any other chord too.) I simply didn't understand your use of English, that's all.

Quote by smc818
Even in HS we came across songs in Sharp keys...but it'll have a flat symbal next
to some notes. That stuff was printed in ink...dude.


Are you implying that the use of accidentals creates new keys? A key isn't the notes you use, it's how they resolve.

Quote by smc818
The thing about it. Matty is always remember about the Dominate note, aside from the Root.lol If he choose to play C7, F7 and G7 as I, IV, V movement.
At least he'll know why. Even if in theory he shouldnt.


I would see a progression like that as simply 2 non-functioning dominant chords, and one functioning dominant chord resolving to C. And that type of progression can easily be explained in Theory as I just did.
"I agree with Matthew about everything" - Everyone
#33
Quote by MattyBoy 1337
I think you're being very condescending. I'm well aware of what a minor third is. and I know what makes a minor chord (and any other chord too.) I simply didn't understand your use of English, that's all.


Are you implying that the use of accidentals creates new keys? A key isn't the notes you use, it's how they resolve.


I would see a progression like that as simply 2 non-functioning dominant chords, and one functioning dominant chord resolving to C. And that type of progression can easily be explained in Theory as I just did.


It's just intervals and tone center....

If you know what minor thirds are...then why would have any problem
understanding a minor 7th?
Minor 3rd has the same distance from the root as the minor 7th from the Domniate.


You dont have problems playing the shuffle when playing 12 bars.
Meaning you're just bouncing off the 5th and 6th with your pinky.
Do that same riff over corrosponding chord movement...

Why would you have any trouble playing a different strumming pattern
using domimate chords? So what would be the easist way to harmonize
over corrosponsing chords?

It's like playing a melodic minor accending ( it's has a raise 7th)
When you play it decending...you lower the 7th to a minor 7th.
The second half of the scale changed colour or intervals.

If you play it straight up and down with the raise 7th...it's call the harmonic minor.

Generally you want to play that over a minor chord to stay within harmony.
It's the tone center or the root of that chord.....not the key of the entire song.
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 15, 2014,
#35
Quote by smc818
It's just intervals and tone center....

If you know what minor thirds are...then why would have any problem
understanding a minor 7th?

I don't have any problem with that

Quote by smc818
You dont have problems playing the shuffle when playing 12 bars.
Meaning you're just bouncing off the 5th and 6th with your pinky.
Do that same riff over corrosponding chord movement...


What does playing a 12-bar blues shuffle have to do with this? I can do that just fine.

It seems like everything you write has been through google translate at least a couple of times.
"I agree with Matthew about everything" - Everyone
#37
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Let's get one very annoying thing straight, it's the dominant not the dominate.


Im not here to please you. if you can figure out it's incorrect..then you know
what the hell if saying. Simply that's just how your brain works.
So dont get silly with me....I cant fix your OCD issues.

Your brain comprehend what Im writing. I only need to get to first and last
letters correct. It's fact.

What you do think happens when we hear scales when all the notes in between
for wacked?
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 15, 2014,
#38
Quote by MattyBoy 1337
I don't have any problem with that


What does playing a 12-bar blues shuffle have to do with this? I can do that just fine.

It seems like everything you write has been through google translate at least a couple of times.


Matty I got all this stuff from music books....I didnt make it up.
It didnt make sense me at first becuase music theory was reamed into my head a certain
in music theory classes.

Why would matter what type of music? Music is music....
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 15, 2014,
#39
Technically the dominant 7th chord would be on the F or the IV of C Dorian because would stay relative to the key of Bb. Since there is no way you can play a V7 you would need to raise the Bb to B. Modes are music theory's dead, learn how tonal harmony works (that includes the function of the dominant chord) and say **** the modes for they are borderline useless and not worth the effort of study.
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#40
Quote by smc818

Your brain comprehend what Im writing. I only need to get to first and last
letters correct. It's fact.

I lol'd. Okay, let's take the word 'comprehend'

Cmpeehornd

Really?

Offtopic, but lol. Assuming by "to" you meant "the" and not "two".
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