MoopMonster
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2011
20 IQ
#1
Ok so I haven't found anywhere with a good solution to my problem yet so hopefully some of you guy's can help me out!

I can do both Economy and alternate picking with relatively fast speeds and cleanly, I can sweep pick like a beast \m/, sweep tap, and do 3 or 4 note shreds pretty decently. My left hand is not an issue, but my problem is when I have to jump to other strings with single notes with the Right. (not in triplets or doubles) For instance I can do 2 or 3 notes on the E, then do 2 or 3 on the A, and back to the E or to the D. But, when I have to do single notes like 1 note on E then A, then back to E then A and so forth (very simple I know) or E and D and back and forth, just 1 note, I always seem to be confused on weather to do an upstroke into a down stroke, or a down stroke into an upstroke on each string? It seems like going from up stroke on the Lower (higher gauge) string to down stroke on the Higher string would be the most efficient but it feels somewhat unnatural. This same issue applies on Riffs that use things like 2 notes E, 1 note D or G and repeat (lots of metal songs use these patterns) and interestingly (to me) I can do triplets into single notes on other strings just fine.
I have no problem doing it very slowly (Obviously) but as soon as the speed picks up my right hand gets confused and either hits wrong strings or misses them entirely, doesn't mute enough, or mutes too much. I've also noticed that when playing it slowly I tend to lift my wrist to skip the string, but when playing much faster I can't really lift my wrist to hit the notes fast enough and the lifting negates any palm muting. Anyway I know it's a really complex and probably somewhat personal issue, but any help or advice would be greatly appreciated (also sorry for the long post but I wanted the issue to not be misunderstood.) Thanks in Advance! Also I hold the pick between the crest of the thumb and the index at a fairly right angle to the strings, other 3 fingers usually out not touching the body of the guitar, and use mostly my wrist to pick, and elbow to change strings.
MoopMonster
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2011
20 IQ
#2
Also if it helps as a reference, I find a lot of the techniques used by In Flames, Insomnium, and Kalmah very difficult to play for this reason.
darkenedheart55
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2014
10 IQ
#3
i have the same problem i dont know if i would use economy picking or not

but i find easier to make a downstroke when i skip from a higher string to a lower string
like this
E--------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------
G-8-------8-----------------------------
D----7-------7-------------------------
A-------8-------8-----------------------
E---------------------------------------

i would use a down-up-down down-up-down

and NOT down-up-up down-up-up


E--------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------
G---------------------------------------
D----7----7---7----7--------------------
A-------8----8---8----8------------------
E---------------------------------------


and here if the A string is with palm mute i would use all downstroke

else i would use down-down-up-down-up-down (economy picking)

i dont know if i should change pick angle
Last edited by darkenedheart55 at Jan 17, 2014,
vIsIbleNoIsE
The Asian-Viking Paradox
Join date: Feb 2006
60 IQ
#5
for alternating single notes on different strings, i always found outside picking to be easiest. i.e. the opposite of what you described, if i understood correctly.

----u---u----u-----------
--d---d---d--------

you should be able to do it with minimal hand/finger movement. the palm muted on the lower string is more like a drop of the palm than a full-on picking motion.
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Last edited by vIsIbleNoIsE at Jan 17, 2014,
Facecut
Vorsitzender
Join date: May 2007
288 IQ
#6
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Any way you can show us the problem? That would really help...


At least tab examples(with #code pls)
MoopMonster
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2011
20 IQ
#7
Well vIsIbleNoIsE #5 is one example, as well as the same pattern but skipping a string or 2.

for instance here is a thing I have trouble playing at speed (kalmah)
G-------------2-------4------5----
D----------------------------------
A --2------------------------------
E --0-----0-0----0-0----0-0-------


D------4-----4-----4-----4----4
A--55----55----55----55---55--


Or (in flames)
D----------------------7---9----7h9p7----
A--2----7---9---10-------------------10
E--0--0---0---0----0---0---0-----------


G-----10---12---14----10---12---14
D---0----0----0----00----0-----0---


(These are all single notes, no chords)

The big issue is that on the string skips (and sometimes not) I either miss the string or hit other strings, because I cant lift my wrist to "jump" at those tempos, or the muting is way off, (Low note sounds over the high ones), or with the example on #5 with just 1 note per string on adjacent strings, It's very difficult to get the notes to sound seperately when picking either D-U-D-U or U-D-U-D at speed. I guess the sort of answer I'd be looking for is either a specific palm muting technique, a picking technique, or exercise or whatever, that I could try to improve this area.
Last edited by MoopMonster at Jan 17, 2014,
MoopMonster
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2011
20 IQ
#8
Also I don't know how to use the code function so help there would be nice too ;-)
Using all downstrokes isn't an option because of the speed, but, that definitely helps with the muting.

EDIT:
The replies so far have been great I've been trying out some of the different methods, But anything you guy's can add or recommend at all is very very much appreciated I've been struggling with this for like 2 or 3 years and have been avoiding it, Thank You so much!!!
Last edited by MoopMonster at Jan 17, 2014,
fanapathy
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#9
^I mean high speed double string skip if you're gonna be in 16ths...you sure the band plays it like that? One thing metal/rock bands do if pedaling the low E or open strings in general, they can access whatever notes higher on the fretboard on several strings. Like if you're gonna do 16th gallops and skip 2-3 strings you're really in trouble at 180bpm unless you're extremely good. Tabbers gonna tab weird sometimes, tone matters, but usually you're not gonna write the riff like that (if you're the composer).
Facecut
Vorsitzender
Join date: May 2007
288 IQ
#10
Quote by MoopMonster
Also I don't know how to use the code function so help there would be nice too ;-)


Write your tab example in , say notepad, copy, write post on ug and press the code button #, paste.

Quote by MoopMonster
Using all downstrokes isn't an option because of the speed, but, that definitely helps with the muting.


Are you sure your maximum downpicking speed needs no work? The in flames examples looked like typical downpicking riffs to me, don't know the songs and the actual speed though.

The first 2 examples I would rearrange the fingering as fanapathy suggested, tabs are of mixed quality. For example maybe using open A string in the 2. example or moving the notes in the 1. example from the G string to D or even A string if the sound allows it.

Whenever downpicking isn't an option I use strict alternate picking with very few exceptions.
Last edited by Facecut at Jan 18, 2014,
vIsIbleNoIsE
The Asian-Viking Paradox
Join date: Feb 2006
60 IQ
#11
Quote by MoopMonster
The big issue is that on the string skips (and sometimes not) I either miss the string or hit other strings, because I cant lift my wrist to "jump" at those tempos, or the muting is way off,


maybe you're jumping too much. you can palm mute such that only the lowest string is really being palm muted. you barely have to lift your palm for the higher notes.

check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCtGKqRaYw8&feature=player_detailpage#t=29
see how little they're moving their hands?

in my opinion i think it's important to work on both being able to play this kind of riff with alternate picking as well as all downpicking.
Quote by archerygenious
Jesus Christ since when is the Pit a ****ing courtroom...

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MoopMonster
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2011
20 IQ
#12
Quote by fanapathy
^I mean high speed double string skip if you're gonna be in 16ths...you sure the band plays it like that? One thing metal/rock bands do if pedaling the low E or open strings in general, they can access whatever notes higher on the fretboard on several strings. Like if you're gonna do 16th gallops and skip 2-3 strings you're really in trouble at 180bpm unless you're extremely good. Tabbers gonna tab weird sometimes, tone matters, but usually you're not gonna write the riff like that (if you're the composer).


Yeah, Im sure about that tab because the notes that immediately follow are on the first few frets of the E, That is a very good point though, changing positions will probably help a lot on most 2-3 string skips. The song plays at 210bpm.


Are you sure your maximum downpicking speed needs no work? The in flames examples looked like typical downpicking riffs to me, don't know the songs and the actual speed though.


Yes, ones from "Take this life" 250 bpm, and the other from "Crawl through Knives" 210bpm, both are played very fast. But, for sure, working on just down strokes will most likely help, as well as just up strokes for that matter. And thanks for the Code Info, I'll write all my tabs like that from now on.


maybe you're jumping too much. you can palm mute such that only the lowest string is really being palm muted. you barely have to lift your palm for the higher notes.


Yeah this is a very good point, I should work on minimal jumping and minimal muting, I guess I'll need to start off again very slowly and work on refining the technique. And that example video is very good too, helps me to see that I don't need to go as "hard" as I usually do.

Thanks for the help everyone! like I said it's all very much appreciated.
Last edited by MoopMonster at Jan 18, 2014,
Facecut
Vorsitzender
Join date: May 2007
288 IQ
#13
I just played through crawl through knives and in that case I downpick the licks you asked about. I would call it 105 bpm btw. Cool song, fun to do.
But you can make it an exercise and do it with alternate picking. In that case I would practice both ways starting with an upstroke or downstroke. I like inside the string better most of the time as I like the accented notes on a downstroke but you should be able to do both as many of these licks don't stay in the pattern.
MoopMonster
Registered User
Join date: Apr 2011
20 IQ
#14
Yeah your right on Crawl through knives, I just tried, and I can pull that one off with just down strokes, Barely, so I'm definitely gonna work on that (Yes it is a very cool song). Also I think I can finish this thread out now, at Least for me. It seems I just need to practice a hell of a lot more to do the faster ones, and Ive also found that inside picking definitely works best for me.

D--------------------------3d
A-------3d----3d-------------
E---1u----1u-----1u-----1u---


And economy picking for the 2 note to 1 note ones.

D-----------------------3d------
A----------3d-------------------
E---1u-1d------1u-1d------------


I also need to slow down and use a metronome more then I do. I also hope this thread helped some other people clarify the issue for themselves. Thanks again, your all a bunch of ****ing saints.
Last edited by MoopMonster at Jan 19, 2014,
brandon2784
UG's Oli Herbert wannabe
Join date: Oct 2007
61 IQ
#16
Quote by MoopMonster
Well vIsIbleNoIsE #5 is one example, as well as the same pattern but skipping a string or 2.

for instance here is a thing I have trouble playing at speed (kalmah)


Or (in flames)


(These are all single notes, no chords)

The big issue is that on the string skips (and sometimes not) I either miss the string or hit other strings, because I cant lift my wrist to "jump" at those tempos, or the muting is way off, (Low note sounds over the high ones), or with the example on #5 with just 1 note per string on adjacent strings, It's very difficult to get the notes to sound seperately when picking either D-U-D-U or U-D-U-D at speed. I guess the sort of answer I'd be looking for is either a specific palm muting technique, a picking technique, or exercise or whatever, that I could try to improve this area.


Try two down strokes followed by one up stroke for those with two pms on the low string before skipping. That's how i do those, if you work at it you can get up around 220 8ths no prob. As for the take this life just use outside alternate picking, shouldn't be to hard.
"Could everyone please stop sounding like everyone else that's trying to sound like meshuggah?"

-Emil Werstler

Quote by damian_91
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MaaZeus
Registered User
Join date: Sep 2012
30 IQ
#17
Quote by MoopMonster
Well vIsIbleNoIsE #5 is one example, as well as the same pattern but skipping a string or 2.

for instance here is a thing I have trouble playing at speed (kalmah)




I do not know the song so I may not be aware of what is the optimal finger position that allows easy change to another section, but whenever there is a part that requires big jumps from string to another or racing up and down the neck like a maniac I try to figure out other ways to play it that may be more economical.

For example, instead of playing 2, 4 and 5 on G string what about 7, 9 and 10 on D string? Just having to jump one less string is a tremendous help for your picking hand but does it screw up your fretting finger positioning for the rest of the riff?

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DrRockz0
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2013
10 IQ
#18
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR STRING SKIPPING.

The position of your thumb on the back of the neck is KEY for your string skipping stretches.
the greatest example of this i can think of is Chris broderick (ex nevermore+ megadeth)
he has stunning technique when it comes to hand position when making the stretches. i cant find a video of it atm but most classical guitar players will know what i mean. Watch some vidoes of him doing it and pay attention youll learn something
Zaphod_Beeblebr
Shallow and pedantic.
Join date: Apr 2006
120 IQ
#19
Quote by DrRockz0
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR STRING SKIPPING.

The position of your thumb on the back of the neck is KEY for your string skipping stretches.
the greatest example of this i can think of is Chris broderick (ex nevermore+ megadeth)
he has stunning technique when it comes to hand position when making the stretches. i cant find a video of it atm but most classical guitar players will know what i mean. Watch some vidoes of him doing it and pay attention youll learn something


... Did you actually read the thread at all?
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DrRockz0
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#20
yes and when you play this stuff your thumb anchors it am i wrong or missing something? hand position for 3 strings like that is killer important especially when making the jumps at higher speeds. i do it every day.
DrRockz0
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2013
10 IQ
#21
the thumb is the anchor of your whole hand and if you dont use it properly to shift your hand then it becomes harder. if you dont beleive me trying playing without your thump on the neck and see how far you go before realizing this is true.
Zaphod_Beeblebr
Shallow and pedantic.
Join date: Apr 2006
120 IQ
#22
Quote by DrRockz0
yes and when you play this stuff your thumb anchors it am i wrong or missing something? hand position for 3 strings like that is killer important especially when making the jumps at higher speeds. i do it every day.


You seem to be talking about the kind of string skipping that Paul Gilbert is known for and thus concentrating on the stretch aspect with the fretting hand.

This thread is not about that.

If you go back and actually read what's going on maybe you'd know that.
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DrRockz0
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2013
10 IQ
#23
This godless endeavor riff by chris and loomis. Strict picking and left hand control sync


|---------------------------|----------------------------|
|---------------------------|----------------------------|
|---------------------------|----------------------------|
|-------3-----3-----3-----3-|--------3-----3-----3-----3-|
|-----5-----5-----5-----5---|------5-----5-----5-----5---|
|--5------4-----5-----0-----|---5------4-----5-----0-----|


S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-----6-----6-----6-----6-|-----6-----6-----6-----6-|
|---7-----7-----7-----7---|---7-----7-----7-----7---|
|-7-----6-----7-----0-----|-7-----6-----7-----0-----|

|
| S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-----6-----6-----6-----6-|-----6-----6-----6-----6-|
|---7-----7-----7-----7---|---7-----7-----7-----7---|
|-7-----6-----7-----0-----|-7-----6-----7-----0-----|


Gtrs II, III
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-------------------------|-------------------------|
|-----3-----3-----3-----3-|-----3-----3-----3-----3-|
|---5-----5-----5-----5---|---5-----5-----5-----5---|
|-5-----4-----5-----0-----|-5-----4-----5-----0-----|


D.S. al Coda
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
|-------------------------|-------------------------||
|-------------------------|-------------------------||
|-------------------------|-------------------------||
|-----6-----6-----6-----6-|-----6-----6-----6-----6-||
|---7-----7-----7-----7---|---7-----7-----7-----7---||
|-7-----6-----7-----0-----|-7-----6-----7-----0-----||
Zaphod_Beeblebr
Shallow and pedantic.
Join date: Apr 2006
120 IQ
#25
Quote by DrRockz0
yah thats real paul gilbert looking bro. get a life dude


Why are you posting things like that and talking about stretching the fretting hand and thumb position exactly then?
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DrRockz0
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#26
because your BRAIN is processing BOTH hands. one will confuse the other. Technically speaking the fretting hand is alot more the power house becasue it moves all over.
if your fretting hand is not up to speed properly then your brain is forced to think about it then you make little mistakes. i am a firm beleiver of fretting hand dominance for problems related to this i have done it for ever 15 years.
Zaphod_Beeblebr
Shallow and pedantic.
Join date: Apr 2006
120 IQ
#27
Quote by DrRockz0
because your BRAIN is processing BOTH hands. one will confuse the other. Technically speaking the fretting hand is alot more the power house becasue it moves all over.
if your fretting hand is not up to speed properly then your brain is forced to think about it then you make little mistakes. i am a firm beleiver of fretting hand dominance for problems related to this i have done it for ever 15 years.


You know what's really helpful?

Explaining things like this to begin with rather than simply talking about something that seems to be entirely unrelated.

What is also really helpful is putting all your replies in one post. Everything's a lot easier that way.
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DrRockz0
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#28
its also helpful not getting shit on by immature admins all day long. thanks .
Zaphod_Beeblebr
Shallow and pedantic.
Join date: Apr 2006
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#29
Quote by DrRockz0
its also helpful not getting shit on by immature admins all day long. thanks .


No one's shitting on you. It's all in your head for crying out loud.
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DrRockz0
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#30
want me to quote it all for you? ive been bothered all day by your admins making assumptions. they are still doing it. and i was 100% polite about it.
Zaphod_Beeblebr
Shallow and pedantic.
Join date: Apr 2006
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#31
Quote by DrRockz0
want me to quote it all for you? ive been bothered all day by your admins making assumptions. they are still doing it. and i was 100% polite about it.


Can if you want, I don't care; you haven't been around long enough to be remarkable enough to shit on.
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Zaphod_Beeblebr
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#33
Quote by DrRockz0
good then tell your boys to stop bothering
thanks again.


...



Oh that's funny, you think I'm important, nice!
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vIsIbleNoIsE
The Asian-Viking Paradox
Join date: Feb 2006
60 IQ
#34
Quote by DrRockz0
because your BRAIN is processing BOTH hands. one will confuse the other. Technically speaking the fretting hand is alot more the power house becasue it moves all over.
if your fretting hand is not up to speed properly then your brain is forced to think about it then you make little mistakes. i am a firm beleiver of fretting hand dominance for problems related to this i have done it for ever 15 years.



here's a riff that falls under the category of riffs that the stated question was asking about:

-----9----9----9---
---------------------
--0----0----0------

so i don't think your advice was really spot-on either.
Quote by archerygenious
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DrRockz0
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#35
ummmm when you go from the 1st note to the 4th its the smae skip just not open maybe a little more challenging... i dont know what to say to you
DrRockz0
Registered User
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#36
if -----9------9-----9------
-------------------------
-0------0------0---------
is easy for you than

------------------------
-----------------------
-------------------------
-------3-----3-----3----
----5-----5------5-------
-5------4------5 -------

this is essentialy the same thing but with an added note in triplets.
vIsIbleNoIsE
The Asian-Viking Paradox
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#37
while your willingness to help is appreciated, i'm just saying that this thread has nothing to do with fretting hand stretches and thumb placement. and i wasn't asking a question...
Quote by archerygenious
Jesus Christ since when is the Pit a ****ing courtroom...

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DrRockz0
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#38
of course it does. you just cant make the connection because maybe you dont notice it when playing. that happens with people who know how to play well. for beginners who cant grasp it its because the hands are not syncing , they make mistakes and lose timing. this is a perfect example of the problems i had starting out. and i know how too fix them. fretting hand will either go faster or slower than picking hand. so and exercise with more strings helps you fine tune that amazing thing of a hand us humans have. Thumbs seperate us from all the animals in the world and thats why you need them to play guitar and licks like that always remember its NEVER one hand working at a time you need to pay attention to both. You can say this is bad advice . i know what i am talking about and ii hope you all try this.
Facecut
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#39
Quote by DrRockz0
Thumbs seperate us from all the animals in the world and thats why you need them to play guitar and licks like that always remember its NEVER one hand working at a time you need to pay attention to both. You can say this is bad advice . i know what i am talking about and ii hope you all try this.


I'll try to keep that in mind.
Last edited by Facecut at Jan 20, 2014,