#1
So i recently picked up a saffire pro40 and have been atttempting to record my band and were having trouble dialing in a good sound. specifically with our kick drums. our drummer picked up a ddrum module with red shot trigs we got it all set up and programmed the right sounds to the right pads, but the double kick is'nt cutting through the mix at all the snare is there. i recorded it in stero out of the ddrum module into the pro40. thinking maybe recording mono may help? or possibly using 2 kick mics and the trigs? any ideas? i was also thinking maybe record every thing else quieter? I've never used trigs before only miked up kits with actual mics and have only acheived a medicore sound but ive always passed it off as poor equipment, cheap mic packs, jerry rigged mixer/interface, low quality preamps, not enough mics….ive been plauged with studio problems ahaha seems like you never have everything you need, but ive been steadily upgrading, pro40, sm57's, etc...


also in regards to the mix I'm having trouble dialing in a good sound for the guitar work. tried miking my cab with sm57 but the amp is being a bastard or possibly my NS2 and giving me a nice squeal right before the suppressor kicks in and catches, very noticable on recordings and very unacceptable. so ive been using VST plugins, poulins specifically. can't seem to get that sick tone you hear all over youtube and shit. makes me wonder if thier actually using the free plugins….I get an OK at best sound, maybe bass would add?…im also trying to find a good bass plug in…something with tse808 plugin most likely bassist amp also sounds like shit. haha.

got myself in deep help!

im also using reaper as my DAW. if that matters, imo it does'nt.

If any other information is needed for more specific suggestions, ask and you shall recieve.
-Peavey 6505+
-Bugera 333xl(w/6l6 pt's) -dead
-412 X-pattern loaded w/ WGS veteran30s & HM75s
-Gibson Les Paul, SD Blackouts *being worked on back to stock*
-Jackson DR7, EMGs
-LTD MH417
-Peavey Vyper 75w
Last edited by OurRequiem at Jan 18, 2014,
#2
Well first of all, you must treat every sound as a puzzle piece that needs to fit with the pieces around it, this in regards to where in the frequency spectrum it sits.

Live (real) sound has unlimited space, but recording is not merely getting the same sound, it's digital and has to work within the headroom realm that occurs with a recording.

That being said, could you post a sound example of solely the kickdrum?

I could then tell you what is wrong, cause I know how a kick needs to sound like solo to fit in a mix, cause it's not boomy as u may think. The kick does not really produce bass imo, that comes in with the bass which has to work with the kick.

Tbh It sounds like you have problems with each individual sound a bit (gtr, bass drums etc), which naturally when summed up in the mix gives an incoherent and weak mix.

Post a full recording as well, cause all I do now is hypothetical this and that. Guitars will sound that extra bit better as well when the bass is mixed right etc.

Just too many variables at this point to accurately give advice

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 18, 2014,
#3
@OurRequiem: Have you tried doing multi-tracking yet? Normally my rhythm tone doesn't sound fantastic (although pretty decent otherwise) by itself but once it's double tracked (or quad tracked) it sounds really powerful (principle of superposition). You have to play really tightly and avoid phase problems as well. Also, maybe post your presets that you're using along with what gear (instruments, etc) and signal chains, distance between mic and cab...

It helps to know these things.
#4
Quote by HaydenHohns
@OurRequiem: Have you tried doing multi-tracking yet? Normally my rhythm tone doesn't sound fantastic (although pretty decent otherwise) by itself but once it's double tracked (or quad tracked) it sounds really powerful (principle of superposition). You have to play really tightly and avoid phase problems as well. Also, maybe post your presets that you're using along with what gear (instruments, etc) and signal chains, distance between mic and cab...

It helps to know these things.



Yeah i have my guitars quad tracked 2 tracks 100% panned left and right, the other 2 70% left and right. didnt copy and paste played thru 4 times. recorded a dry signal straight into the pro40 used a poulin le456 VST plugin. ill take a picture of the settings i dialed in, cut back mids, little on bass, up on treble, everything is at 12 o'clock. Im using a LTD mh417 with active emg's. Im also using the poulins lecab impluse loader and using a orange 2x12. couple that with a tse808, drive up tone up volume down, and then finally eq'd with 2 high pass filter on the 100% panned tracks and a low pass on the 70% tracks.

when i tried miking up my amp, which is a 333xl with a 412 cab loaded up with WGS v30s and hm75's and running a pitch black tuner > 7 band eq > ts9 > Boss NS2, i was using one sm57 almost touching the grill a little off center of the cone.

I shall upload some samples of the sessions and post them to soundcloud and come back with a link.
-Peavey 6505+
-Bugera 333xl(w/6l6 pt's) -dead
-412 X-pattern loaded w/ WGS veteran30s & HM75s
-Gibson Les Paul, SD Blackouts *being worked on back to stock*
-Jackson DR7, EMGs
-LTD MH417
-Peavey Vyper 75w
#5
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Well first of all, you must treat every sound as a puzzle piece that needs to fit with the pieces around it, this in regards to where in the frequency spectrum it sits.

Live (real) sound has unlimited space, but recording is not merely getting the same sound, it's digital and has to work within the headroom realm that occurs with a recording.

That being said, could you post a sound example of solely the kickdrum?

I could then tell you what is wrong, cause I know how a kick needs to sound like solo to fit in a mix, cause it's not boomy as u may think. The kick does not really produce bass imo, that comes in with the bass which has to work with the kick.

Tbh It sounds like you have problems with each individual sound a bit (gtr, bass drums etc), which naturally when summed up in the mix gives an incoherent and weak mix.

Post a full recording as well, cause all I do now is hypothetical this and that. Guitars will sound that extra bit better as well when the bass is mixed right etc.

Just too many variables at this point to accurately give advice



No no this is great im happy people actually are trying to help and not just coming on here saying "THERES A ****ING SEARCH BAR OMFG NEWB REPORTED FIRST STEP IS TALENT IN THE MONITORS IM A DOUCHE" blah blah. end rant.

I'll go bounce the sessions upload them to sound cloud and get you a link, probably a personal message because i am very intriguied with what your saying.
-Peavey 6505+
-Bugera 333xl(w/6l6 pt's) -dead
-412 X-pattern loaded w/ WGS veteran30s & HM75s
-Gibson Les Paul, SD Blackouts *being worked on back to stock*
-Jackson DR7, EMGs
-LTD MH417
-Peavey Vyper 75w
#6
Quote by OurRequiem
little on bass, up on treble,


Do you mean adding a little bass, or cutting a little bass? You won't need as much bass as you think you will. That part of the spectrum will be covered by... well... the bass. haha

About the kick... a common approach to this is to let the kick live more in the low-mids. By hearing the beater, you clearly *hear* the bass drum. You don't need a lot of lows in there, as the ear will complete the illusion itself that the bottom end is there. That allows you to keep the bottom end of your mix for... well... the bass.

So, your kick and bass won't be competing, nor will your guitar and bass.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#7
Quote by axemanchris
Do you mean adding a little bass, or cutting a little bass? You won't need as much bass as you think you will. That part of the spectrum will be covered by... well... the bass. haha

About the kick... a common approach to this is to let the kick live more in the low-mids. By hearing the beater, you clearly *hear* the bass drum. You don't need a lot of lows in there, as the ear will complete the illusion itself that the bottom end is there. That allows you to keep the bottom end of your mix for... well... the bass.

So, your kick and bass won't be competing, nor will your guitar and bass.

CT



ahh this is very useful thank you!

i ment that i was cutting a little off the bass and then cutting off the mids as well and turning up the treble. everything else tho is at 12 o'clock. off the top of my head id say the lows are around 10 o'clock and the mids around 9 o'clock then treble at around 2-3 o'clock. thats what im running in my vst plugins they vary slightly from track to track too...

So are you saying that i should maybe boost the low mid range? what are we talking here like 100-300ish….maybe? should it be a narrow am in the ballpark at least? how much would you say to increase the db?

I did try to boost the shit out of the lows on the kick drum miks…when we used mics but now were attempting to get a good sound out of triggers….but the low boost did'nt do me any good. it was in 50 range to about 200 maybe.
-Peavey 6505+
-Bugera 333xl(w/6l6 pt's) -dead
-412 X-pattern loaded w/ WGS veteran30s & HM75s
-Gibson Les Paul, SD Blackouts *being worked on back to stock*
-Jackson DR7, EMGs
-LTD MH417
-Peavey Vyper 75w
#8
here this might help a bit

https://soundcloud.com/yourlastbreath-1/session-mix-sounds-like-shit

https://soundcloud.com/yourlastbreath-1/drums-are-sounding-like-shit

i pulled a couple 30 second samples out of the songs. the first is everything miked up no triggers recorded seperately. you can hear my amp screaming everytime i palm mute.


the second is the triggered kick and snare with 2 over heads just drums.

listen at your own risk


i deleted the session where i used the plug ins for guitar, took care of the screaming amp but i rage deleted it im thinking. lol oops
-Peavey 6505+
-Bugera 333xl(w/6l6 pt's) -dead
-412 X-pattern loaded w/ WGS veteran30s & HM75s
-Gibson Les Paul, SD Blackouts *being worked on back to stock*
-Jackson DR7, EMGs
-LTD MH417
-Peavey Vyper 75w
Last edited by OurRequiem at Jan 18, 2014,
#9
Since you're looking for a bass plugin, try TSE's Bass Overdrive (BOD) v2. It's a free all-in-one bass driver with good sound. Just DI the bass and go, no amp needed.

Also, your guitars are mostly in the low mids. Some high mids (1k-3k) are important to get them to cut through, because that's where the distortion shows up. The mix sounds muddy because there's not much going on towards the top (or even middle) of the spectrum, other than cymbals. Highs make it sound crisp. The top also should have some crack from the snare, and impact from the kicks, both of which are getting lost in the mix right now because they're all in the lows.
Last edited by Cavalcade at Jan 18, 2014,
#10
Quote by Cavalcade
Since you're looking for a bass plugin, try TSE's Bass Overdrive (BOD) v2. It's a free all-in-one bass driver with good sound. Just DI the bass and go, no amp needed.

Also, your guitars are mostly in the low mids. Some high mids (1k-3k) are important to get them to cut through, because that's where the distortion shows up. The mix sounds muddy because there's not much going on towards the top (or even middle) of the spectrum, other than cymbals. Highs make it sound crisp. The top also should have some crack from the snare, and impact from the kicks, both of which are getting lost in the mix right now because they're all in the lows.



great advice! top notch!
-Peavey 6505+
-Bugera 333xl(w/6l6 pt's) -dead
-412 X-pattern loaded w/ WGS veteran30s & HM75s
-Gibson Les Paul, SD Blackouts *being worked on back to stock*
-Jackson DR7, EMGs
-LTD MH417
-Peavey Vyper 75w
#11
I'd actually like to know more about the proposed kick-mixing technique too. I get my kick through the mix loud and clear but I haven't got any low mids in there, I actually save those for the bass guitar. Kick would have its thump between 50 and 100hz and the dry 'click' I usually find around 5-6khz. , the bass is above the kick's low end around 70-200, with the 'metallic' sound at around 4k. I highpass the guitars at around 150hz, and up the mids betwee n 800hz-1.2khz and the highs around 3-4k with a lowpass at 9-10k.

So I guess giving the kick some actual bass isn't a completely 'not legit' way of mixing. I'm actually pretty happy about the 'distribution' of instruments throughout the audible spectrum in my mixes. So I wonder what 'switching out' the frequency bands of the kick drum and bass guitar would do?

A big part of my kicksound I get from a multiband compressor though (I use Reaper's xComp). OP might want to try one of those over his kick tracks too. I don't actually use it as overall 'compression' per se (I actually use a regular compression VST in the loop too) but I find that scooping the mids and upping the lows and highs for the kick through xComp actually does a lot for the overall 'smoothness' of the sound. In a modern extreme metal mix, you don't want your kick taking the same place in the mix the way a Jazz kick drum will. You want it low, dry and snappy.

(I hope I'm not hijacking the topic - I guess this was one of OP's questions but certainly not the only one.)
Last edited by Eryth at Jan 19, 2014,
#12
Well to adress that quickly^^

Kick bass relationship is pretty much different for each genre of music, both in real live drum music as wel as different for almost every electronic genre of music.

For example, a blues or rock song at a medium tempo, might want to have a fairly boomy kick, as the drums are a big part of the energy.

Where for example drums in a drum n bass song, want dry short kicks (and snares) and let the entire lower Hz region be dominated by a sub bass.

Back to real music, in most metal the sound is characterized by the guitars, and you want to cut some frequency, but you need to be more specific and precise, cause you don't want to lose drum authenticity. Though other even more guitar dominated genre's replace drums entirely with vsts in favour of a very produced mid mid-hi section, lots of layers etc.

It might be best to make a separate thread for that, and rather start with giving an example of a songmix you like and want to replicate the kick/bass synergy.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 19, 2014,
#13
Let's start with the drums. They sound like they were recorded with a hand-held recorder in the room. They do not sound like a multi-tracked (even if triggered) and mixed drum track. At all.

Soooooo......

Let's start with the individual sounds. Can you post a clip of your kick, snare, hats, cymbals, etc. individually?

That will allow us to tease out any issues of poor original sounds from just poor mixing.

As far as recommending what frequencies a little more specifically (in regards to your question), it's hard to give generalizations like that. It always depends on context.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#14
Quote by OurRequiem
i recorded it in stero out of the ddrum module into the pro40. thinking maybe recording mono may help?


This just caught me.

So you're recording stereo out from the drum module as audio?

If that's the case, you're on a tough road to get that right.

How about this:

Record the midi out from the drum module to individual tracks - or to one track and then later explode them out into their own parts.

Get one midi track for kick, one for snare, one for hats, etc. - and yes.... mono for each track. Achieve a stereo spread by panning the various mono tracks as they might appear if you were sitting behind (or standing in front of) an actual drum kit.

Use a VST sampler (look for Drum Mic'a from Sennheiser for a really solid free one if you've got lots of memory) and run your midi through that.

That way, if your kick sounds like @ss, you just have to pick a new kick! If your snare isn't loud enough, you just have to turn it up!

Especially if it is an older module, the samples contained inside are almost surely inferior to anything available today in a semi-modern VST sampler.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
Last edited by axemanchris at Jan 19, 2014,
#15
Quote by axemanchris
This just caught me.

So you're recording stereo out from the drum module as audio?

If that's the case, you're on a tough road to get that right.

How about this:

Record the midi out from the drum module to individual tracks - or to one track and then later explode them out into their own parts.

Get one midi track for kick, one for snare, one for hats, etc. - and yes.... mono for each track. Achieve a stereo spread by panning the various mono tracks as they might appear if you were sitting behind (or standing in front of) an actual drum kit.

Use a VST sampler (look for Drum Mic'a from Sennheiser for a really solid free one if you've got lots of memory) and run your midi through that.

That way, if your kick sounds like @ss, you just have to pick a new kick! If your snare isn't loud enough, you just have to turn it up!

Especially if it is an older module, the samples contained inside are almost surely inferior to anything available today in a semi-modern VST sampler.

CT


i just thinking last night about how i wish i could have control over the triggered tracks more.
i have only the kicks and snare on triggers at the moment and now 2 overheads and miked up the kicks in addition to the snare .sounds better imo. Im interested in what your saying tho with the midi and sample replacement i'm just clueless as to how all that shit works. hell i dont even think i have a midi cable haha. but i was just reading a article on sample replacement and im having a hard time wrapping my head around it but

https://soundcloud.com/yourlastbreath-1/every-seven-seconds-sneak-peak

heres a sample. improvement over the last two IMO. its a little choppy because we decided last minute to change up the beginning and it worked out alright, but ive just been trying to find the right tone still.

quad tracked the guitars again tho and don't seem to be cutting thru all that well.
no bass adding that tomorrw. and probably re doing the guitars because im never happy with them.
-Peavey 6505+
-Bugera 333xl(w/6l6 pt's) -dead
-412 X-pattern loaded w/ WGS veteran30s & HM75s
-Gibson Les Paul, SD Blackouts *being worked on back to stock*
-Jackson DR7, EMGs
-LTD MH417
-Peavey Vyper 75w
Last edited by OurRequiem at Jan 20, 2014,
#16
1. Get a midi cable. A lot of them, now, will go straight to USB.
2. In your software, create a midi track and set the midi (USB) as the input source.
3. Record, just like you would an audio track.

Each drum will show up as its own note. Ex. all the kicks will be C's or whatever.

From there, it is just midi editing.

(with a little bit of midi savvy, you could set up multiple midi tracks, each one set to receive on its own channel, and assign the output of each pad to a channel. ex. program the module so that all the kicks are on channel 1, snares on channel 2, etc.; then set up the software to record the kick drums on channel 1, snares on 2, etc.)

Note that you are not sample replacing. That's a process usually reserved for damage control. This is just basic midi recording.

From there, once you have your midi tracks, set the output of those tracks to go to a VST instrument - like a drum sampler. Just like standard midi playback.

Note that midi doesn't sound like anything. People say, "Oh, midi never sounds good." If you have good samples (like the Drum Mic'a one above) and good programming (like an actual e-kit played by a real live drummer), there's no reason for them to not sound great. Midi only sounds like crap when poor samples and/or poor programming are in place.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#17
I double the midi^^.

I have heard drummers play buckets and cans, and still put out a groove that I could listen to for 10 minutes, when the sounds are not even anywhere near a real drum sound.

Groove is groove regardless of what instrument or sounds are used for that matter.

Dance music for example has groove, and 99% of those sounds are fake, and not even dynamically realistic most of the time.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Jan 21, 2014,