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#1
Hi guys

I'm posting because I'm really confused and can't find an answer. I understand basic music theory and lately have decided I want to learn all scales in all positions. I'm already playing the pentatonic and natural minor scales in all positions and I am slowly learning the major scale patterns.

However........

I'm a little confused about modes. I understand that the Major scale for instance, is the ionian mode and then when starting the scale on the root note of D, the mode is Dorian and the modes are simply a way of playing the major scale from a different root note (in simple terms anyway).

How then, do these modes work when we are playing minor scales and pentatonic scales?

I hope this question hasn't already been asked, if so, please link me to the right thread
#3
The whole "starting on D" thing I always found to be a very confusing way of learning modes.

Basically, there's seven of them. One of them is the basic major scale, another is the basic minor scale, another is horrible. That leaves four. Two are major (lydian, mixolydian), and two are minor (dorian, phyrigian).

For the lydian mode, you take the major scale and sharpen the 4th interval.

For the mixolydian mode, you take the major scale and flatten the 7th interval.

For the dorian mode, you take the minor scale and sharpen the 6th interval.

For the phrygian mode, you take the minor scale and flatten the second interval.

That's modes in a nutshell. I'll probably get shouted at because I'm leaving out lots of the nitty-grittys of the theory and mathematics behind it or whatever, but that's the simplest way I have of thinking about modes.
#4
Unfortunately, modes will continue to be a confusion subject seeing as three is disagreement as to definitions and use amongst even those with music degrees and or years of experience passing and teaching. Have a look at Chris Zoupa's lesson on modes and then read through the comments. I am just one of a number of commentors that disagree with allanhb's viewpoint. He seems to see them as standing off belonging to free form jazz based melodies instead of encompassing every facet of music.

This thread will descend into arguing in: 3....2....1....
#5
When it comes to playing modes, more important than the scales are the chords behind them. This is something you'll run into a lot when doing research, so prepare to get comfortable with advanced chords.
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#6
Quote by WhiskeyFace
The whole "starting on D" thing I always found to be a very confusing way of learning modes.

Basically, there's seven of them. One of them is the basic major scale, another is the basic minor scale, another is horrible. That leaves four. Two are major (lydian, mixolydian), and two are minor (dorian, phyrigian).

For the lydian mode, you take the major scale and sharpen the 4th interval.

For the mixolydian mode, you take the major scale and flatten the 7th interval.

For the dorian mode, you take the minor scale and sharpen the 6th interval.

For the phrygian mode, you take the minor scale and flatten the second interval.

That's modes in a nutshell. I'll probably get shouted at because I'm leaving out lots of the nitty-grittys of the theory and mathematics behind it or whatever, but that's the simplest way I have of thinking about modes.


YES! to this. Plus, think of the Major pentatonic scale as the 'skeleton' for major modes and the Minor pentatonic scale as the same for minor modes. It's the two notes that get left out that change within this context.

And YES! to BledGhostWhite as far as modal usage and the chords/chord progression relationship.

Good luck
#7
I agree with WhiskeyFace as far as remembering the modes. That way is the easiest way for me to think about it.

P_Trik, I don't want another modal argument any more than you do, but I feel the need to say: The three ways outlined in that link to AlanHB's blog I posted are the only three useful uses of modes I've seen, and most people I've talked to that know anything about the subject agree with one or more of those approaches. Any other use of modes (like the 4th approach) is needless complication. There is no point in using modes to talk about music that has nothing modal about it. Modes add no value except in those three cases.

I will now do my best to not perpetuate the argument any further.


edit: also,

Quote by P_Trik
Think of the Major pentatonic scale as the 'skeleton' for major modes and the Minor pentatonic scale as the same for minor modes. It's the two notes that get left out that change within this context.



I never noticed that little detail, that's pretty cool
Last edited by The4thHorsemen at Jan 20, 2014,
#8
Quote by BledGhostWhite
When it comes to playing modes, more important than the scales are the chords behind them. This is something you'll run into a lot when doing research, so prepare to get comfortable with advanced chords.


Yes.

A simple way to look at modes is to remember that the scale IS the chord, when you're talking about actual modal music.

Cm11 = C Eb G Bb D F = C D Eb F G A/Ab Bb = Cm or C dorian

But I suspect the OP is talking about modes of scales, which are a bit different.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jan 20, 2014,
#9
I'm going to disagree with all the above suggestions re: modes. For the beginner, I suggest you simply learn the major scale, and jamming/improvising with the major scale over a simple chord progression.

For example, find an A major chord progression / backing track on YouTube. Now with that playing, just jam over it with the A major scale, as slowly as you need to go. Try to play notes that sound "good" to you, whatever that may be. You will probably notice that you are naturally wanting to play the root note (A in the key of A major) at start / end of measures / phrases, particularly at the very end, as a home-coming sort of note. That's fine. I would say if you are doing this, you are playing A Ionian mode.

You asked about modes in relation to minor, or minor pentatonic (or blues scale for that matter). That simply using the same major scale, but dropping out two of the notes from that scale (if the major tonic is the "1", then you are dropping the "4" and the "7" and playing 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6), and you are now coming "home" to the "6" rather than the "1". Now you are still fundamentally using the A major scale, but you are playing the F# minor pentatonic, a/k/a the F# Aeolian.

Now, using that same minor pentatonic scale, which is simply the major scale starting with the "6" and dropping the 4 and 7, you can now start that scale from the 1, 2, 3, or 5, and coming home to the 1, 2, 3 or 5, and you will then go back to playing the A major / A Ionian scale (albeit with only 5 rather than 7 notes of the major scale), or you start/end on "2" and you are then jamming in B Dorian, again using a somewhat truncated version of the B Dorian scale since you are only using 5 of the 7 notes in that scale. If you start/end on the 3, that's a truncated C# Phrygian (5 of 7 notes). (For all these scales, you can un-truncate them by adding back in the 4 and 7.) Anyway, if you add back in the 4 / D, and then start/end on it, you are playing truncated D Lydian (un untruncated if you also add in the 7). If you start/end with E, you are playing truncated E Mixolydian. If you add back in the 7 / G#, and start/end with it, you are playing truncated G#Locrian (or untruncated if you also add in 4).

In this way, you get a very clear and intuitive picture of how the modes are all variations of the major scale, and if you want to think about the modes in relation to minor scale or minor pentatonic, you can do that, but that does NOT change that the modes can most easily be viewed as variations of the major scale I find it more complicated, when playing the minor pentatonic, to start thinking of the minor tonic as the "1" and renumbering the rest of the notes, and easier to keep thinking of the minor tonic as the "6" with the major tonic staying "1," but that's my view.

So, to my way of thinking, it does not really make sense to suggest you understand modes as variations of major scale, but you are confused as to how they can be seen as variations of minor scale, as the minor scale is just one of the modal variations of the major scale.

I think it adds a needless element of complication to suggest, as some have done, that you should be playing modes thinking how the different modal scales vary intervallically from the major scale, like, "Gee, this mode is the major with a flattened fifth." WTF? No, it's still the major scale, exact same intervals, just that you are starting/ending from a different place rather than the major tonic. Similarly, I see no need to worry about modes as being derived from chord construction at the start. I mean, if you understand conceptually how to the chords in the major key are derived from the notes in the major scale / from the major intervals, then you basically understand how all modal chords are derived from the modal scales, and I don't know that you need to actually have worked it out from scratch. Or maybe I don't fully understand what the posters suggesting this relationship are really saying.

Ken
Bernie Sanders for President!
Last edited by krm27 at Jan 21, 2014,
#10
Quote by P_Trik
Unfortunately, modes will continue to be a confusion subject seeing as three is disagreement as to definitions and use amongst even those with music degrees and or years of experience passing and teaching. Have a look at Chris Zoupa's lesson on modes and then read through the comments. I am just one of a number of commentors that disagree with allanhb's viewpoint. He seems to see them as standing off belonging to free form jazz based melodies instead of encompassing every facet of music.

This thread will descend into arguing in: 3....2....1....


Hey wassup dude!

My argument was a song was not "modal" or "in a mode" simply because it had a non-diatonic chord, Sweet Child of Mine's bVII was the source of contention. Sure I get a whole heaps of negs for those comments because it diagreed with Chris Zoupas examples, but that's the way it goes.

Thanks for coming here anyway, most dudes either just neg and don't argue their point or spam my wall and inbox.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#11
Wow Ken thank you so much for that answer, that has made things a lot clearer. I am far from a beginner in soloing, improvising and guitar playing but I have never traditionally bothered with relating any of it to theory and have always gone by ear. However I now want to try make sense if the theory stuff hence why I want to learn modes to a higher standard. Thanks for the help people, I'm starting to understand a little more already!

Mark
#12
I'd add, I never think of the minor scale with the tonic as the "1" which would force me to think of a new intervallic series, I think of it as the "6," and I just know that when I play the blues scale, I generally come home to "6" and that's that.

One added benefit (I think) is the concept of sofflege (sp?) or ear-training where you hear intervals in relation to the tonic using the Do Re Mi syllables. So, if I go over the minor pentatonic scale in 1st position from E, I think as I play, "La...Do...Re...Mi...So...La..." so the minor tonic is "La" and the next note, 3 semitones after it, is the "Do," so again I just bear in mind that if I want a minor sound, I come home to "La" (which is the 6) and not to "Do."

So as I play these notes, I am practicing recognizing where the various "Do-Re-Mi's..." from the major scale are in relation to one another. Yet, at the same time, if I'm playing the Blues Scale, I know that I'm going to think of "La" as my "home" tonic rather than Do, and I also bear in mind that the Blue Note is the note between Re and Mi.

Well, I'm not sure if this approach is novel, or if it is what others already do. If it's not what others do, perhaps there's a hidden downside to it that will become apparent later.

Ken
Bernie Sanders for President!
#13
^Did you read Improvise for real?
Last edited by Ignore at Jan 22, 2014,
#15
^^^ I don't really like to think of the minor scale as the major scale starting on the sixth, it throws all my intervals in relation to the minor scale out of whack. I just like to think of the minor scale, a stand alone scale.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#16
Quote by AlanHB
^^^ I don't really like to think of the minor scale as the major scale starting on the sixth, it throws all my intervals in relation to the minor scale out of whack. I just like to think of the minor scale, a stand alone scale.


I agree with AlanHB on this 100%. Just thought I'd post it here in the spirit he showed above of respectful agreement/disagreement

And just a side note; AllanHb, please kick me in the nuts the next time I post from my phone with the kind of grammatical and spelling errors in my above post
Last edited by P_Trik at Jan 22, 2014,
#17
^^^ Yep no worries dude. I just a have a quick question about Sweet Child of Mine again. Obviously I will disagree with the answer but I prefer to get an understanding of opposing viewpoint than stamp my feet and have a sook.

So your argument is that Sweet Child of Mine is in mixo because it has a bVII. I was just wondering how you would explain the V considering it isn't diatonic to mixo. I would also like to know why it couldn't be interpreted as being in the ionian mode.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#18
Sure. First, the sound that vibrates at the frequency of D is the central sound, the tonal center of the piece until the end solos. The chord progression of the song's signature intro that continues through the verses is D Cadd9 and G which are the I bVII and IV chords in the key of D. The Cadd9 is not an anomaly in this song in D major, it is a repeated and crucial part of the progress of the harmony. I could go into the notes that make up these chords and the set of notes in the guitar hook and even the vocals to show that they are D E F# G A B and C but you and I and most others that have the rudiments down, know that.

Accidentals exist in major key songs or Ionian mode songs and they do as well in this instance of Sweet Child. This is the modern and accepted way modes are used; they help define why this note set and therefore chord progression works so well.

All the best to you, bro. I'm not interested on an argument

*edit: interestingly, when Sheryl Crow covered this song, she uses Am in the chorus instead of A major. Also, it modulates to E minor for the end solos, switching the 'mood' of the song from the 'confident, yet aggressive' mood of the Mixolydian mode to the 'sweet, melancholy, emotive' mood of the Aeolian mode AND, the cool part of this observation, uses the exact same set of notes, E F# G A B C D, resolving to the tonal center of E.

Good luck to all
Last edited by P_Trik at Jan 23, 2014,
#19
My point was you do not need to memorize a separate set of intervals for the minor scale if you think of it as Major from 6. Instead, you just train yourself to functionally use 6 as 1.

I was thinking about this, and I think my method is maybe a shorthand way for learning about modes, being able to incorporate the different modes of the Major scale, including the minor scale, and perhaps moving between them. However, I imagine if you move on to learn other scales (Hungarian Major, Double Harmonic, Gypsy Scale, etc.), now you probably are well-served to learn each of those with the tonic as 1, and think of the rest of the intervals using probably Nashville Number System from there, so you have them memorized in terms of how they vary from the Major Scale for quick reference.

Now, once you are doing that, and collecting a set of different scales starting from 1 in your brain, it probably then makes sense to go back and look at what the Major Scale Modes are, in terms of intervals, if you reset the tonic to 1 for each of them. Because now you are essentially creating a mental model of all these scales that are slightly different, and these can just sort of fall into place / add to the gestalt.

My approach is one I think was helpful to me to use different modes, get comfortable moving all around the fretboard in seven different modes, and never once have I tried thinking how the minor scale intervallic formula is really 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (or whatever if that's wrong). Or how the Dorian mode's intervallic formula is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 (or whatever).

I'm TOTALLY understanding that this may be penny wise / pound foolish. Maybe in the long run, forcing myself to work these out in terms of these intervals would reap dividends later on in my learning/playing and I'll kick myself later if I have trouble switching over to this way of thinking as I play, and maybe my way means I'm not picking up on insights that would otherwise be apparent using that other way. Yet, the bottom line is, I think my way just makes the brain do less work to get you up and running playing in the seven major modes, and jamming, and such. I think a lot of people trying to teach themselves guitar and music theory -- which is what I did / am doing -- may get daunted/frustrated by the work and give up on it. For myself, I gave up on learning guitar after a few weeks when I was 21, again after a bit when I was 30ish, and then I finally picked it up at 42 with the resolved attitude that I can learn anything anyone else can learn, and with the help of the internet and this site. I've written 50+ original songs, I can (and generally do) just play freeform improve, and I generally keep myself motivated by finding the fun ways to practice/learn. Maybe this means I learn slower, or less efficiently, or am not setting myself up to be able to have a professional career at this, but that's not really my aspiration, and I'm not sure that's really why anyone should be trying to learn music versus just enjoying the process, wanting to express something within, etc. My self-study process has been some trial and error, and I could see myself somewhere down the line, maybe when I hit 50, writing a book or outline for my recommended way for some one -- particularly an adult with limited time -- to dive into learning a musical instrument without getting frustrated and giving up, how to stay motivated, how to picture things in a way that makes sense without feeling like you are being asked to learn a foreign language (though ultimately there may be a bit of truth to that). Is my way of modal thinking, at this stage, going to turn out to be a success or something I later chalk up to an error? I'm not sure, but I do think the OP got a grasp on the interrelated nature of modes perhaps quicker form my first post than the ones talking about different intervallic formulas or chord derivatives or whatever.

And I'm also curious what those with more experience have to say about the relation of sofflege to scale modes. I am trying to learn melodies by ear a lot these days, and I simultaneously try to sing back the melody to myself using the Do-Re-Mi. I feel in this way I'm killing two birds with one stone, learning how to hear a song and play it on the fretboard, and also getting a stronger sense of intervallic relationships. But to keep it simple, I always try to hear the "Do" as the Major tonic, even if the song is in minor or dorian or mixolydian, and I just think, like for a minor phrase, that I start with "La." So as most of my jamming is in minor pentatonic or blues scale, I'm nevertheless reinforcing my mental map of the major scale on the guitar fretboard, and reinforcing my ear training to hear notes in relation to the major tonic.

So, if I am making up a D Dorian melody, I hear the D as "Rey" not "Do" even though it's technically the tonic. If I were to do otherwise, and think of the D as "Do" in my D Dorian melody, I'd have to employ the lesser known sofflege in-between syllabic sounds, like "Me/Ma" (flat 3) or "Te/Ta" (flat 7), just to do that Dorian Scale. It makes more sense to me, at this stage, to just think of the Dorian Scale as "Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti-Do-Re" Consistent with that sofflege approach, it also makes sense to me, and seems simplest, to picture this as 2-3-4-5-6-7-1-2 in terms of intervals. Otherwise, if I'm not consistent in how I do this, then it seems to lead to a complicated mess where I'm thinking of "Re" as "1" and "Do" as 7, and I cannot see how that is an efficient approach.

But, again, I'm totally winging this self-teaching thing, and I am open to changing my approach if it turns out it's wrong-headed. When you are trying to teach yourself, you have to be particularly careful because you don't know what you don't know, and I try to stay cognizant of that limitation.

Sorry, if my posts have to some extent hijacked this thread.

[edit: solfege, not sofflege or whatever I wrote]

Ken
Bernie Sanders for President!
Last edited by krm27 at Jan 23, 2014,
#20
Quote by P_Trik
Sure. First, the sound that vibrates at the frequency of D is the central sound, the tonal center of the piece until the end solos. The chord progression of the song's signature intro that continues through the verses is D Cadd9 and G which are the I bVII and IV chords in the key of D. The Cadd9 is not an anomaly in this song in D major, it is a repeated and crucial part of the progress of the harmony. I could go into the notes that make up these chords and the set of notes in the guitar hook and even the vocals to show that they are D E F# G A B and C but you and I and most others that have the rudiments down, know that.

Accidentals exist in major key songs or Ionian mode songs and they do as well in this instance of Sweet Child. This is the modern and accepted way modes are used; they help define why this note set and therefore chord progression works so well.


Cheers mate, some of the facets of this theory are quite foreign to me so you'll have to bare with some more questions.

1. The bVII is an intregral part of the song, rather than an anomoly, which is which it's in mixo, not a key. Could you give an example of how you would change the song to make that bVII an anomoly, and therefore in a key?

2. How does this explain the V? Is the V an anomoly in the mode of mixo?

Cheers
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#21
It feels like we're not speaking the same language. An anomaly is a deviation or departure from the normal. In D major, Cadd9 is an anomaly but it is not an anomaly in D mixolydian. It BELONGS in D mixolydian. You said before that Accidentals in a major or minor key don't change the fact that they are major or minor and I agree with that and extend that same freedom in music to all three major modes and all three minor modes. If a song repeats the same note set over and over within the harmonies and melodies of that piece, Then those notes should be accepted as the NORM for that piece. C natural is the norm for sweet child and the tonal center is D. That is the very definition of D mixolydian.

I see the A major in the chorus as some young musicians bashing away at their guitars and coming up with cool sounds. All modes, ionian and mixolydian alike don't preclude the use of Accidentals.

Good luck to all trying to understand.
#22
^^^ Yeah we're definitely missing eachother somewhere.

Is your argument that the entirety of the song is in D mixo, or just the Cadd9?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#23
That song is not modal because it still relies on harmonic motion/resolution. A song's chord roots can be diatonic to a mode of a scale, but that doesn't make it modal harmonically.

With completely modal music, you often see things like pedal or ostinato bass, effectively setting a static harmony. The harmony is stated vertically such that the relevant scale IS the chord, in contrast to songs where you move from one harmonic area to another with different chords. You look at unambiguously tonal music and often the different harmonic centers (tonic, subdominant, dominant) are actually tonicized to distinguish them from the overall key center. Pop music simplifies this by just moving from chord to chord without tonicization, but I IV and V are still distinct harmonic areas within the key. Modal music makes no such distinction, and any harmonic "motion" would mean defining a new mode, not necessarily related by root movement or resolution tendencies.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jan 23, 2014,
#25
You hit the nail on the head with this post cdgraves. The disagreement comes down to the pimary definitions of modes and their uses. Yours and allanhb define them a belonging only to pure free form melody and that may be their roots but most modern musicians have an expanded viewpoint.

We disagree. Period. And for the record, I stand behind my first post that this topic ALWAYS descends into an argument. Carry on carry on
#26
I Mean, there are shades of gray with everything here. Purely modal music isn't terribly common, as far as I know, and most of the modal jazz or minimalist music I've heard still retains elements of tonalism.

When these debates demand a label, I try to weigh the many factors that go into defining harmony and the pick the label that applies most thoroughly. The primary distinction I look for is static vs moving harmony.

With regard to Sweet Child of Mine (this rivals the stupidity of "Sweet Home Alabama" arguments), what tips it for me is that each chord is clearly a different harmony, accompanied by a chord-tone based melody in the vocals, rapid harmonic motion of the chords, and the acknowledgment of root motion in the bass. Nothing about it suggests a vertical modality, even if the chord sequence contains a b7. When it moves to IV and bVII, it's defining separate harmonies, not extensions or re-combinations of the tonic harmony.

At no point in the song could you validly describe the Cadd9 as a G6sus4 in first inversion, and that's why it's not modal per se (and you'd be straining pretty hard to call Fmajor triad any kind of G). The song is only modal in terms of root structure.

Think of something like a traditional Hindu Raga, which is modal by design. The whole idea is that the series of intervals has a specific Affect for the listener, just as individual chords do in traditional Western music. The entire series of intervals, aka the Mode, defines the harmony vertically. Tension is purely melodic, as the harmony does not resolve.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jan 23, 2014,
#27
Modes , chords and arpeggios are basically the same.

To make it less confusing. I term the so call major scale or Ionian as the DIATONIC.
We all know you can play the A min, D min, or E min chords in the Key of C. (parent scale)
The basic chords are less defined. They all have the same intervals...1,-3, 5.
Extending these chords define the chords more.
example....1,-3,5,-7

Extending it more defines it more....1,-3,5-7,9 or 1,-3,5,-7,-9 ...ect.
You're basically coloring the chords more.

Now think of plucking your guitar with your fingers......
You don't have to play those note in the exact sequence or order.
Nor you have to play them all at the sametime.
You're bascailly picking the arpeggios. If you wish to add riffs to them, you're
simply going to add more notes.

Example if I wish to define the chord exactly where it's at in the sequence of the
parent scale such as 1,-3,5,-7,-9....
The -9 is the same as the -2. If I look in the interval. It tells me it's the III chord.
Bascically it tells me it's a Phrygian because of the -2.

The very samething happens if you which to play major chords.
example the I, IV, V

The I and IV chords are maj7 because they both have a natural 7
The V (dominate) has a -7

If you study the intervals it'll make more sense to you.
Begin by knowing the difference between a maj pentatonic or the minor pentatonic.
They have different intervals and sound different.
The scale is less defined...the same concept as the basic chords or triads.
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 23, 2014,
#28
Quote by P_Trik
We disagree. Period. And for the record, I stand behind my first post that this topic ALWAYS descends into an argument. Carry on carry on


This part is all true, and makes up a majority of this forum. I'm simply trying to understand your position. Note in this thread I haven't called you incorrect at all, I just would like to know the thought process.

Could you please tell me if you are arguing that Sweet Child of Mine is in a mode or in a key with the C borrowed from mixo?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#29
Quote by AlanHB
This part is all true, and makes up a majority of this forum. I'm simply trying to understand your position. Note in this thread I haven't called you incorrect at all, I just would like to know the thought process.

Could you please tell me if you are arguing that Sweet Child of Mine is in a mode or in a key with the C borrowed from mixo?


Well...Star bangle banner. It's really easy if understand or play if you know about modes
and tone center....That one accidental note.
You can start off in a maj arpeggio or chord for the first 6 notes for question and answered phrase. (if you start off in C maj or C Ionian)

The next 12 notes are done in a mode from a different key.
Rather than playing an A Aeolian. Play E Aeolian.

This Old man...is a will known elementary song most people are taught to learn in grade school. It's in mixolyian.
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 23, 2014,
#30
^^^ Ok cool, I'm not sure what you think modes are either so you'll have to go to the back of the line.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#31
I guarantee the Star Spangled Banner is neither modal nor diatonic to a mode of a scale. The accidentals indicate secondary dominants. The first phrase is I V6 V/vi vi V/V V: http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~worldwarone/star-spangled.html

Pretty much everything from between Gregorian Chant and Bitches Brew was a movement away from modalism as a harmonic paradigm. Purely modal music is really not that common. Diatonic music based on a mode of a scale is not unusual, but again, that's very different from modal music.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jan 23, 2014,
#32
What the hell is a V/Vi????

It just goes like this....

5,3,1 3,5,8 (Cmajor)...I guess that's the I
Then....8,-7-6,1,2,-3.
Play it in whatever tone center you want.

well, All I know is...you best play that bad boy with an accidental note in it.lol

Cant you hear it????
When it gose into a higher pitch. It's a Phrygian mode.
lyrics...( and the rockets glare red)
Then it gets resolved with an Aeolian mode. (that our flags are still there).

I guess it's stupid complicate to play an Aeolian mode with a raised 7th in it.
To get a harmonic minor.

Drop the 7th in the Ionian you get a Mixolian.
Raise the 4th in the Ionian you get a Lydian.

Drop the 2 in an Aeolian you get a Phrygian
Raise the -6 to a natural 6 you get a Dorian

You can play whatever modes over root and 5th (power chord)...maybe not the locrian
as much.
That's because the chord isn't defined. It just has the root and dominate note.
All the modes has root and maj 5th. (excluding the locrian.)
That's how to play the axis pitch system

To get a locrian without racking your brain.
All you have to do is make the Phrygian with a -5
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 23, 2014,
#33
Quote by smc818
What the hell is a V/Vi????

It just goes like this....

5,3,1 3,5,8 (Cmajor)...I guess that's the I
Then....8,-7-6,1,2,-3.
Play it in whatever tone center you want.

well, All I know is...you best play that bad boy with an accidental note in it.lol

Cant you hear it????
When it gose into a higher pitch. It's a Phrygian mode.
lyrics...( and the rockets glare red)
Then it gets resolved with an Aeolian mode. (that our flags are still there).

I guess it's stupid complicate to play an Aeolian mode with a raised 7th in it.
To get a harmonic minor.

Drop the 7th in the Ionian you get a Mixolian.
Raise the 4th in the Ionian you get a Lydian.

Drop the 2 in an Aeolian you get a Phrygian
Raise the -6 to a natural 6 you get a Dorian

You can play whatever modes over root and 5th (power chord)...maybe not the locrian
as much.
That's because the chord isn't defined. It just has the root and dominate note.
All the modes has root and maj 5th. (excluding the locrian.)
That's how to play the axis pitch system

To get a locrian without racking your brain.
All you have to do is make the Phrygian with a -5

We all know this.
#34
Quote by smc818
What the hell is a V/Vi????



A Mm7 chord that resolves by 4th/5th to the vi chord...? Secondary dominant, mang. Shit's all over the place, just turn on the radio.

In the Star Spangled Banner, V/vi ("Five of six") is the first non-diatonic harmony. D7 in first inversion resolving to Gm.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jan 23, 2014,
#35
Quote by cdgraves
A Mm7 chord that resolves to the vi chord...? Secondary dominant, mang. Shit's all over the place, just turn on the radio.

In the Star Spangled Banner, V/vi ("Five of six") is the first non-diatonic harmony. D7 in first inversion resolving to Gm.



Im guessing...if I circle up to the 5th note. Then use that bad boy as the root.
Then play the Aeolian mode?
Lets see what comes after D7??? Emin anyone?

Isnt that the samething as me saying play an E Aeolian instead of an A Aeolian?
In other words you change from the key of C to the key of G
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 23, 2014,
#36
Quote by smc818
Im guessing...if I circle up to the 5th note. Then use that bad boy as the root.
Then play the Aeolian mode?

Isnt that the samething as me saying play an E Aeolian instead of a A Aeolian?

Stop thinking like that. It's stupid. This mode, that mode, bla bla bla.
#37
Quote by P_Trik
All modes, ionian and mixolydian alike don't preclude the use of Accidentals.


yes, they do. the only exceptions are notes that are used at cadence points, such as leading tones. such as sharpening the C in D dorian at a cadence point, and the use of the occasional Bb to fall to A. modal jazz takes more license but it can just as easily be said to be in keys.

if modes did not preclude the use of accidentals there would be absolutely zero use for the concept of keys. think about it. major and minor would not exist - we'd just call everything ionian and aeolian. i'm not going to be a dick about it but i suggest you think about why the terms "major" and "minor" are in existence, regardless of the wikipedia-esque "this is what modern musicians think" approach. these terms don't exist for no reason. and, trust me, if it were the case, ionian and aeolian would be the prevalent terms, since i've noticed that guitarists seem to love fancy terms so much.

Quote by smc818
What the hell is a V/Vi????

It just goes like this....

5,3,1 3,5,8 (Cmajor)...I guess that's the I
Then....8,-7-6,1,2,-3.
Play it in whatever tone center you want.

well, All I know is...you best play that bad boy with an accidental note in it.lol

Cant you hear it????
When it gose into a higher pitch. It's a Phrygian mode.
lyrics...( and the rockets glare red)
Then it gets resolved with an Aeolian mode. (that our flags are still there).

I guess it's stupid complicate to play an Aeolian mode with a raised 7th in it.
To get a harmonic minor.

Drop the 7th in the Ionian you get a Mixolian.
Raise the 4th in the Ionian you get a Lydian.

Drop the 2 in an Aeolian you get a Phrygian
Raise the -6 to a natural 6 you get a Dorian

You can play whatever modes over root and 5th (power chord)...maybe not the locrian
as much.
That's because the chord isn't defined. It just has the root and dominate note.
All the modes has root and maj 5th. (excluding the locrian.)
That's how to play the axis pitch system

To get a locrian without racking your brain.
All you have to do is make the Phrygian with a -5


V/vi is a secondary dominant chord, as has been explained. in the key of F, a V/vi would be an A major chord, which is the dominant (V) of D minor (the vi of F major).

i can guarantee you that there is nothing modal about the star-spangled banner. it stays within a single key, and only moves out of the underlying diatonic scale when it uses the #4 scale degree in the melody (which is the result of a secondary dominant chord [the V/V] and has zero, zilch, zip, nada, etc. to do with the parallel lydian mode).

Quote by smc818
Im guessing...if I circle up to the 5th note. Then use that bad boy as the root.
Then play the Aeolian mode?

Isnt that the samething as me saying play an E Aeolian instead of an A Aeolian?
In other words you change from the key of C to the key of G


no - it has nothing to do with changing keys, scales, or any such thing. it's called tonicization - a classical term indicating a very short modulation. while the D7 tonicizes the Gm harmony, it doesn't shift the entire tonal center of the piece to G minor because of the way the phrase continues.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#38
No...it's just the Vi chord from V note.

D7 is the dominate. Emin is the relative.

Don't know where you're getting Gmin from. Gmin require that I play a Bb
Circle up not cycle down. Cycling down meaning Shifting the tone the other way.

Count the intervals....As I said before. The dominate chord will always have a -7
if you extend it.
Example...Cmaj7, Fmaj7, G7 or in the key of G ...Gmaj7, Cmaj7, D7

When you play the power chord....it can also be the sus4 chord.
This is when you're cycling down.
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 23, 2014,
#39
C - F - D - G - C - G - C
I'm using this example because it's really easy to see.
I - IV - V/V - V - I - V -I

D major is the V chord to G major, in this context it's acting like the V chord of the V chord in the key of C. The tonic never stops being C, the key never stops being C major.
Last edited by macashmack at Jan 23, 2014,
#40
Quote by macashmack
Stop thinking like that. It's stupid. This mode, that mode, bla bla bla.



That's like me saying stop learning chords or playing them....this chord, that chord...blah blah...blah...
Don't be silly.

It's just every other note. I know.
If I extend some of chords out
Such as C, E, G, B, D...Sometimes If I strum it without the root note, it's going sound like a minor chord.lmao
Errr, if I just strum it from the 5,7,9. Im thinking those are the same notes
as the dominate chord.lol

Cmaj7add 6, 11/13...Holy wow ! Why don't I just play the freaken F chord.lmao
Why learn chords? blah...blah...blah , it's stupid and a waste of time.

Where in the hell did that G minor came from? It has a flat 3rd
All minor chords have a -3 in them. it's simple and easy.
As all minor modes has -3 in them

All major chords has a maj 3.
The dominate chord has a maj 3 and -7...just like it's mode
Last edited by smc818 at Jan 24, 2014,
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