#1
I can hear major and minor like black and white, I just got sevenths down, and i can get 180 right out of 200 tries between the maj7 and min7, but as soon as the two notes are played together. I can't for my life hear the difference at all.. why??

I've had two lessons with my guitar instructor trying to get me to hear the difference between dom7, major7 and min7 chords, but I can't .. Is there like a trick to this? what should I be looking for
Last edited by yums.feng at Feb 2, 2014,
#3
Quote by yums.feng
I've had two lessons with my guitar instructor trying to get me to hear the difference between dom7, major7 and min7 chords, but I can't .. Is there like a trick to this? what should I be looking for


The keyword here is that you've had TWO lessons. Give it some time. And you're asking if there are tricks to recognising the intervals. The best method is actually to internalise the sound. If you can't tell the difference between Maj7 and min7 but can between a straight minor or major triad, then listen out for the triad underneath the 7th, and go from there. For the Dominant 7ths, listen out for the tritone between the 3 and the 7. But I suggest you do a lot of interval recognition training before you get to this (to the point where you know the interval instantly).
#4
Maybe it's because your used to just hearing the 3rd or -3rd on the high strings in a higher
octive.

here's something simple I do. It's just extending the triads.
It helps me to hear the 3rd or -3rd in the same octive

The shape of it...Somethings I play it in sequence with the 5th
Other time I just pluck the Root, 3 7. Omit the 5th

Cmaj7 (shape) not tabs...

E-----------------------------
B-----------------------------
G------------------4-------
D-------2-------------5-----
A---------3-------------------
E-----------------------------

Dmin7

E--------------------------------
B--------------------------------
G--------------5-----------------
D-----3----------7---------------
A--------5-----------------------
E--------------------------------

Dominant7

E-------------------------------
B-------------------------------
G------------------10-----------
D------------9-----------12----
A---------------10-------------
E--------------------------------

Another way I do it. Simple ....help train my ear to hear the difference between 6, 7,-7
I just bar my finger across a fret.

Cmaj6

E------------5-------------
B------------5---------------
G------------5--------------
D------------5--------------
A------------X--------------
E-------------------------------

On the high E string. I alter it accordingly to hear different sounds. Octive, 7, -7
Just use my pinky

I used to listen to this song all the time. To help train my ear. To hear the difference
between the 3rd and -3rd in the same octive...Sounds different dosnt it?
Even though he's play it in a maj scale and about as simple as it's going to get.

It'll make sense to you why it sounds cool like that.
Because the 3rd has the same interval from the root as the 7 from the dominate.

When you hear the dominant chord. You're hearing a maj3rd on the low end
and a -7 on the high end. You must play the Dominant chord with a -7 to
stay within key.....That's why the I and IV chords are maj7 and dominate chords
are written as G7....to designate the -7.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhNqL6rmqWE
Last edited by smc818 at Feb 2, 2014,
#5
Quote by GoldenGuitar
The keyword here is that you've had TWO lessons.
I'm not as certain about the syntax here as are you.

I can't exactly figure out if he's had only two lessons, or two lessons on this topic. Could be a big difference.

In any event, a dominant seventh should sound like a major chord, but more grating and annoying, (at least to me).

A minor 7th, should sound primarily like a minor chord.

And a major 7th chord has a sort of sickeningly sweet, lovesick flavour to it....

In any case, the 7th of any chord could be anywhere in the chord, including the bass line. The lower it is, the more difficult it might be to pick up. In the case of "slash chords", there could be a sequential interval "walking" through the bass.

That notwithstanding, it isn't a cardinal sin, (in most instances), to sub out a V7, for a plain old V chord. (IE, C major for C7).

It might help our TS to familiarize himself with the permutations available within a single major chord voice, and listen for the different 7th possibilities, while using a single root note.

Perhaps more simply, take a C major open chord , add a Bb for dominant 7th, and remove the index finger from the 1st fret of the B-2 string for the maj7th.

Cm and Cm7, are granted, more easily accessed using a root 5 barre chord, at the 3rd fret.
#6
I can hear the dom7, it's the maj7 and min7 that screws me over completely once they reach the ends of the register. There's a certain range that I am able to identify them, but it's very small. When the chord is near the end of the register, I find some stuff ring out more which I'm assuming causes me to hear the major triad in the min7 more making me think it's a major chord.. I don't think describing the sound with words is working for me just cos of that. How do you guys work around it?
Last edited by yums.feng at Feb 2, 2014,
#7
Another reason is because there's PURE interval and not so pure intervals.
We use not so pure intervals.

If you tuned your guitar using artificial harmonic. You'll get pure tones at certain register.

Another reason is because you're guitar innotations might be slightly off.
The chords will sound good from the nut to around the 10-12 frets. Then beyond
that it'll start sounding dirty or out of tune.
Innotations are the length of the strings. You can adjust it by adjusting the bridge saddle
back and forth.

How do I work around it...Lots of practice.
I make the D7 chord shape at various places of the neck.lol

E----------------------
B----------------------
G---------5------------
D---------4-----------
A---------5------------
E----------------------

This gives me the basic Root, 3rd,-7
If I lower the 3rd....Play the note on the D string 1 fret back. it'll give me a -3 or minor.

I slide it up and down the entire neck.
The samething into the higher strings. I adjust accordingly.

I also learn a new pentatonic scale. It's different than the regular minor and major.
The minor pentatonic already have the -3 and -7
The Dominant pentatonic. 1,2,3,5,-7. It sounds different because
of the maj3 and -7 in it. It trains my ear.

Have your ear check. I'm actually tone deaf in one of ear. I can't hear at a higher resgister in one ear. It's cool to triangular and kill crickets.lol
It's from standing in front of my amp blasting at a certain angle for too long.
Last edited by smc818 at Feb 2, 2014,
#8
Quote by smc818
Maybe it's because your used to just hearing the 3rd or -3rd on the high strings in a higher
octive.

here's something simple I do. It's just extending the triads.
It helps me to hear the 3rd or -3rd in the same octive

The shape of it...Somethings I play it in sequence with the 5th
Other time I just pluck the Root, 3 7. Omit the 5th

Cmaj7 (shape) not tabs...

E-----------------------------
B-----------------------------
G------------------4-------
D-------2-------------5-----
A---------3-------------------
E-----------------------------

Dmin7

E--------------------------------
B--------------------------------
G--------------5-----------------
D-----3----------7---------------
A--------5-----------------------
E--------------------------------

Dominant7

E-------------------------------
B-------------------------------
G------------------10-----------
D------------9-----------12----
A---------------10-------------
E--------------------------------

Another way I do it. Simple ....help train my ear to hear the difference between 6, 7,-7
I just bar my finger across a fret.

Cmaj6

E------------5-------------
B------------5---------------
G------------5--------------
D------------5--------------
A------------X--------------
E-------------------------------

On the high E string. I alter it accordingly to hear different sounds. Octive, 7, -7
Just use my pinky

I used to listen to this song all the time. To help train my ear. To hear the difference
between the 3rd and -3rd in the same octive...Sounds different dosnt it?
Even though he's play it in a maj scale and about as simple as it's going to get.

It'll make sense to you why it sounds cool like that.
Because the 3rd has the same interval from the root as the 7 from the dominate.

When you hear the dominant chord. You're hearing a maj3rd on the low end
and a -7 on the high end. You must play the Dominant chord with a -7 to
stay within key.....That's why the I and IV chords are maj7 and dominate chords
are written as G7....to designate the -7.



You're not quite right.

It's because the Dominant chords are derived from the Mixolydian scale(it's a relative scale of the ionian scale, or the major scale. Mixolydian is also recognized as the 5th mode of the major scale, with the major scale being the 1st mode).

Why exactly so?

It's because the Mixolydian scale contains the major 3rd, the perfect 5th, and the minor 7th.

A common way of breakdown of the structure of 7th chords among those, who study chord structure and use of simultaneous pitchs(both are also known as harmony), especially among jazz/prog and rock/metal musicians, is the presence of major/minor 3rds from the root, and from the 5th.

A dominant 7th chord contains a major 3rd from the root, and a minor 3rd from the 5th(which is equal to a minor 7th from the root).


F#7
E--0---|
B--2---|
G--3---|
D--4---|
A-------|
E-------|

As seen in the above example of a dominant 7th chord, in this case, an F#7 chord, the A# note present in the chord is the major 3rd from the root(in this case, the F# note), and the E note in it is the minor 3rd from the 5th(in this case, the C# note).

How is it with the rest of 7th chords then?

A major 7th has a major 3rd from the root, and a major 3rd from the 5th(equal to a major 7th).

A minor 7th has a minor 3rd from the root, and a minor 3rd from the 5th.

Now, about the last two....

A half-diminished 7th chord contains a minor 3rd, a diminished 5th(aka tritone) and a major 3rd from the 5th(this time from the tritone), which is equal to a minor 7th.

A fully diminished 7th chord contains a minor 3rd, a diminished 5th, and a diminished 7th(equal to the major 6th).

Those were the 5 most popular varieties of 7th chords.


There are some more, like the augmented major 7th chord, and the harmonic 7th chord, but i've given you already a lot of info, so if you're still interested, look around by yourselves, okay?

Anyway, what was the main point of this educational rant?

The point was to correct smc818 and clarify the subject of 7th chords themselves.

First off, harmonically speaking, the I and IV chords are maj7 only when the chord progression(or, perhaps, retrogression) is in the major scale(ionian mode). If the key(basically speaking, the scale) is different, they might as well be min7 or one of them even a dim7. For example, if the progression were in locrian mode, then the I chord would be dim7, the IV chord would be min7, and the V chord would be maj7.

Secondly, there is always the option of breaking some of the music "rules"(pretty much all of which are conditional anyway) of music and partly, or even TOTALLY neglecting the harmony.

hat does that ean? You can make a progression in any scale while using only, say, dominant 7th chords. The progression is not likely to be harmonized and to resolve into a specific tonic chord, but the bass notes will definitely follow a scale.


This is one long comment, isn't it?
#9
With ear training it's really critical that you also make the sounds. Producing intervals with your own voice is the only way to internalize the sounds completely.

Get a sight singing book - it'll help give some direction with your ear training. I've used these two books, and they're both good for introducing concepts gradually:



While you're still learning intervals, try this exercise: pluck a note on the guitar, sing it, and then pick an interval above or below to sing. It'll be tough at first, but after a while you'll be able to hit whatever interval you want.
Last edited by cdgraves at Feb 2, 2014,
#10
Just to train the ear the distinguish the different between the 7,-7,6...ect
I omit the 5th on purpose. So you can hear the difference between the 3 and -3

Im not going into theory. I know theory.

It's easier to hear those note on the high end because it's last note being played. It'll ring more.
He's having trouble hearing the 3rd and -3rd...simply because the -7 is ringing more
and last note his brain heard.

That's why also said PLUCK, not strum....

It's not that complicate. Everytime I see A7...that bad boy is gonna have -7
That's because there's a whole step between the 4th and 5th.

The reason why the I and V are Maj7...obviously there a 1/2 between the 7 and octive.
The Ionian or the so call maj scale or MASTER SCALE we all use as the reference
has a 1/2 between the 3 and 4....What do think is going to happen when you start
the count from the 4th note as the root?

Everytime I see a diminish. Im going to play a -5
When I see a an augmented Im going to play +5
Wben I see a sus Im going to omit the 3rd.
When I see ADD...Im going to ADD whatever it say to add....

It's just every other note.

if you think Im crazy...Eric Jonhson sometimes omit the ROOT note when he plays.
He knows where it's at. He just colure his chords more. That's why it's knid da wickage
to figure out some of his songs. He's play the chords without the root...so you'll hear
crazy inversion and think it's a different chord.lmao
Last edited by smc818 at Feb 2, 2014,
#11
Quote by Captaincranky


In any event, a dominant seventh should sound like a major chord, but more grating and annoying, (at least to me).

A minor 7th, should sound primarily like a minor chord.

And a major 7th chord has a sort of sickeningly sweet, lovesick flavour to it....

(This following post is not helpful to TS in any way)

Naw man. Dominant seventh chrods aren't annoying, they're quirky, almost like they're throwing their hips out to the side. In the second inversion with the 3rd or 5th at the highest note it sounds like a magic spell being cast. I definitely wouldn't describe them as annoying.

Minor sevenths are jazzy and purple.

I agree that Major sevenths are saccharine.

Of course, all this is bullshit and only exists in my perception. I just like to share the way that sounds are experienced between musicians and how chords and notes sound.
#12
For purposes of ear training it's useful to put chords in context. The Mm7 has a function - dominant - and occurs in very specific circumstances. Learning to recognize when/where to expect certain qualities is half the difficulty of training your ears.

And for the record, dominant quality chords do not "derive from" the mixolydian scale. Modalism bears little relevance to basic Functional Harmonic analysis, which should be focus for anyone starting on theory and ear training. Learning the important aural differences between various chord functions and qualities should come before learning theoretical abstractions.
Last edited by cdgraves at Feb 2, 2014,
#13
Quote by yums.feng
I can hear major and minor like black and white, I just got sevenths down, and i can get 180 right out of 200 tries between the maj7 and min7, but as soon as the two notes are played together. I can't for my life hear the difference at all.. why??

I've had two lessons with my guitar instructor trying to get me to hear the difference between dom7, major7 and min7 chords, but I can't .. Is there like a trick to this? what should I be looking for


The trick is that it takes a while, and a lot of practice, and then one day you get it.

But in the meantime, try this:

Listen to the interval. Sing both notes individually. Then identify the interval.

Literally turn the harmonic interval (the notes at the same time) into a melodic interval (one after the other). Then identify it.

WIth chords, start with triads. Same thing. You hear three notes together. Sing them individually. Identify the melodic intervals. Identify the chord. Once you're good at that, add 7ths.
#14
I used to hate extended chords...whatever they were.lol
They all sounded twangie.

Now that I gotten used to playing them whether they're min or maj it dosnt matter.
It just gives more options...or rather the options had always been there. I simply
didn't know how to use them.

It's kind of backwards sometimes. The Cmaj chord sounds totally twangie to me.
Especially when I play it in open position. The high E note ringing donst sound nice
to me. I want to color it different or not let it ring.

At the moment...the 9 or 2 sounds rather quirky to me because I don't use a lot of
sus chords. So Im learning to play the major pentatonic with option -3 added.
It's not so much that I havnt played those notes. It's more of playing around them more.

After I get better with the -7. Play them with 3 or -3. The next step it to do the samething
with the 2 or 9.
Last edited by smc818 at Feb 2, 2014,
#15
ear training mp3's are prolly one of the easiest ways to get hearing your intervals ingrained! you can make them yourself, by making mp3 trakcs of yourself playing intervals, or you can get them here: Ear Training mp3's

but, until you spend the time learning your intervals, your ear will remember it one day, then forget it the next. so, just keep at it and you will master your intervals/

another good method is to associate songs to certain chords. For instance, Jimi Hendricks Foxy Lady chord quickly ingrained an Dominant 7b9 chord.