#1
Hello everyone. There is a type of chord that metal bands use, mostly deathcore bands, that looks like this:

[------]
[--5--]
[--8--]
[------]
[------]
[------]

It is almost only used in breakdowns, and sounds truly horrible. The chord shape can be moved anywhere up and down the fret. I was just wondering if there is a proper name for this chord, and if not, what is it most commonly referred to?

Any answers would be greatly appreciated.
#4
It's a Powers chord (named after Samuel Powers), as opposed to the more traditional power chord.
#5
if you count it's only an inversion of a 7th chord or a sus-9


Those notes only have a 1/2 step between them
#6
2 notes does not make a chord, but the interval is a minor 2nd. Meaning the notes are a semi-tone or half-step apart.
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#8
Quote by OfCourseNot
2 notes does not make a chord, but the interval is a minor 2nd. Meaning the notes are a semi-tone or half-step apart.

Regardless, they are still commonly called panic chords.
#9
Quote by Audiolife
Regardless, they are still commonly called panic chords.
And yet those who call them 'panic chords' will continue to be wrong

Was curious about this, as well, so thanks for the post, OP.
Heisenberg might have been here

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I don't clean my room because I'm saving entropy the effort


Drugs may lead to nowhere, but at least it's the scenic route
#10
Quote by jhalterman
And yet those who call them 'panic chords' will continue to be wrong

It is NOT wrong to call it a "panic chord"; it's just a non-traditional name for a minor-2. If you're going to insist that people who use the term "panic chord" are wrong, then you also have to say using the term "power chord" is wrong. But, see, that would be silly...
#11
Stop calling them minor 2nds, they are referred to as flat seconds because the second degree does not determine whether a chord is major or minor, e.g. a minor 9th chord contains the natural second, but it does contain a minor third, which is why it is a minor 9th and not a major 9th.

It is for this same reason why you would refer to a flat fifth as a flat fifth or diminished fifth and not a minor fifth.
Last edited by STONESHAKER at Feb 10, 2014,
#12
You can also play that interval like this, although now you've got the lower note an octave down. Still, it's hard to play that interval on adjacent strings once you move it off of the B and the G string.

[------]
[-----]
[--5---]
[-----]
[--2---]
[------]
Last edited by STONESHAKER at Feb 10, 2014,
#13
Quote by STONESHAKER
Stop calling them minor 2nds, they are referred to as flat seconds because the second degree does not determine whether a chord is major or minor, e.g. a minor 9th chord contains the natural second, but it does contain a minor third, which is why it is a minor 9th and not a major 9th.

It is for this same reason why you would refer to a flat fifth as a flat fifth or diminished fifth and not a minor fifth.

They ARE called major seconds and minor seconds. If you're going to correct someone at least be correct yourself.
#14
Quote by macashmack
They ARE called major seconds and minor seconds. If you're going to correct someone at least be correct yourself.


No, they aren't. This is one of the reasons I shouldn't post in musician talk -- 95% of the people here think they know what they are talking about and end up spreading misinformation.

There are chords called minor 9ths and major 9ths. You can call it a "minor 2nd" but I already explained why that's not right. You simply saying, "Oops, no, you're wrong," will not change anything.

The person calling them "panic chords" was more correct than the person calling them minor 2nds. The second degree does not make a chord major or minor, thus you do not refer to it as a minor second, you refer to it as a flat second. Just like you refer to a m7b5 chord as just that -- a minor seventh FLAT fifth, not a minor 7th minor 5th.

When a wise man doesn't know the answer to a question, he keeps his mouth shut whereas the fool opens his mouth and removes all doubt as to what he is.

Edit: To further illustrate my point, a chord containing a root, the perfect fifth, and a perfect ninth would still be referred to as a 5add9, not a major 9th, for the reason that it does not feature any thirds or sevenths and cannot be classified as either major or minor.

Go read a book or something man.
Last edited by STONESHAKER at Feb 10, 2014,
#15
It doesn't matter that the second doesn't make a chord major or minor. It's still called the MAJOR second or the MINOR second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_second

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_second

I know it doesn't determine the major or minor quality of a chord, that doesn't matter. It's still referred to as the major or minor second, just like the sixth is called the major or minor sixth.
You go read an elementary theory book as you need to polish up the basics.
Last edited by macashmack at Feb 10, 2014,
#16
So to justify your response, you reference Wikipedia?

Hey man, how many scientific journals reference Wikipedia?

How many college professors teach off of Wikipedia?

Would a college professor allow you to reference Wikipedia in a paper?

Would a high school teacher even allow you to reference Wikipedia in a paper?

Like I said, go read a book. I have demonstrated I know music theory by providing rhetorical arguments based in fact. You can't even form an argument without using someone else's words, thus illuminating that you really aren't comfortable enough with music theory to make a counter argument. I'm done here.
#17
Quote by STONESHAKER
So to justify your response, you reference Wikipedia?

Hey man, how many scientific journals reference Wikipedia?

How many college professors teach off of Wikipedia?

Would a college professor allow you to reference Wikipedia in a paper?

Would a high school teacher even allow you to reference Wikipedia in a paper?

Like I said, go read a book. I have demonstrated I know music theory by providing rhetorical arguments based in fact. You can't even form an argument without using someone else's words, thus illuminating that you really aren't comfortable enough with music theory to make a counter argument. I'm done here.

Honestly, you're a ****ing idiot. Get the **** out of MT because you don't know shit.
#18
Quote by STONESHAKER
This is one of the reasons I shouldn't post in musician talk -- 95% of the people here think they know what they are talking about and end up spreading misinformation.


that's precisely why you shouldn't post in MT. let the 5% handle it.

you need to read up on intervals. if you don't know what a major or minor second is and you tried to assert that there's such a thing as a perfect ninth, you definitely need to study more.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#19
Interesting, I've never heard the term "panic chord" before. Learn something new every day.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#20
Hopefully this doesn't turn into an all out brawl and people can keep some level heads here. I'm feeling like I want to issue a ton of warnings today so everybody play nice.
Quote by STONESHAKER
Stop calling them minor 2nds, they are referred to as flat seconds because the second degree does not determine whether a chord is major or minor, e.g. a minor 9th chord contains the natural second, but it does contain a minor third, which is why it is a minor 9th and not a major 9th.

It is for this same reason why you would refer to a flat fifth as a flat fifth or diminished fifth and not a minor fifth.
If you don't accept Wikipedia as a reputable source How about Leonard Bernstein?

Here's a quote from him talking about intervals...
Now the distance between any two neighboring notes is, as you know, a 2nd [PLAY], from here to here. But, as you may not know, it is a minor second. A minor second is the smallest distance we can move from one note to the next, in our Western musical system, which is based on the twelve different tones — like the twelve inches of the foot rule, or the twelve minor seconds in an octave

Source:
http://www.leonardbernstein.com/ypc_script_musical_atoms.htm

or if you look at the prospectus from the Julliard School of Music you will see them refer to intervals:
advanced sight-reading, singing all major and minor scales, and singing intervals (minor second through major seventh).

source: http://catalog.juilliard.edu/content.php?catoid=14&navoid=1467&print=&expand=1

In the book Music Notation and Terminology by Karl Gerhkins he discusses intervals in Chapter 17 and here is what he says about second intervals...
186. A second is the relation between two tones whose pitches are properly represented by adjacent degrees of the staff. (The first line and first space are adjacent degrees, as are also the third line and fourth space.)


A minor second is one comprising one half-step. Ex. B—C.

A major second is one comprising two half-steps. Ex. B—C♯.

An augmented second is one comprising three half-steps. Ex. F—G♯.

source: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19499/19499-h/19499-h.htm#CHAPTER_XVII

Also Wikipedia may not be the most reliable source in the world but for general things it's pretty good. And a lot better than just some guy on an internet forum.

I could list references to the Harvard, Oxford, or Cambridge Dictionary of music, Music for Dummies, Idiots Guide to Music Theory, Harmony by Walter Piston or ANY other book on music theory but I wanted to use sources that you could check easily online.

A minor second is a perfectly legitimate term. You can call it a "flat second" if you want but it is still a minor second.

~ ninja'd
Si
#21
Finally, someone actually argues my point with actual academia.

Here's the bottom line: I read the thread, saw these guys arguing about calling it a panic chord and responded by holding up a mirror to their action and lambasting them for calling it a minor second and not a flat second as is the UG way. Not super mature, but I'm convinced these forums can turn anyone into a misanthrope given enough time.

If I say a flat second, do you know what I am referring to? Yes, an interval of a semi-tone.

If I say a flat third, do you know what I am referring to? Yes, an interval of three semi-tones. Can it also be called a minor third? Yes. Do musicians frequently refer to thirds as "thirds and flat thirds"? Yes, probably because it is faster to say that then major third and minor third.

You're right. There's no such thing as a "perfect 9th" chord. I should have just said "9th" as I was referring to the interval of an octave plus one full step. The fact that the first two guys didn't make the connection between 9ths and 2nds is probably why they think I don't know what a minor or major second is (interval of a half and full step, respectively whereas a 9th is the respective compound interval counterpart)

Why do I think it is better to refer to the interval as a flat second or a second? Because when you talk about the composition of a 9th chord, the major 9th chord and the minor 9th chord are referring to whether the third is major or minor. The 9th is still the 9th in both cases -- that is to say, a minor 9th chord does not contain a flat 2nd. It doesn't contain a 2nd either if you want to be technical - it contains a 9th, which is one octave higher than a 2nd. This is the other reason why I don't like using "minor" or "major" with seconds -- if I were to teach someone about ninth chords, they could get confused by the terminology which is why I only like to use "major" and "minor" when referring to chords in particular, but if I have to use it to describe an interval, I would use it for 3rds, 6ths, or 7ths and that's it.

EDIT: I wouldn't even refer to 6ths as major and minor 6ths either for the same reason. What if you take a major sixth chord and flat the sixth? That's a sexy chord, especially if you remove the third, but it's still not a minor 6th chord.
Last edited by STONESHAKER at Feb 10, 2014,
#22
Quote by STONESHAKER
Finally, someone actually argues my point with actual academia.


which is unnecessary, frankly. i've never seen someone of an academic musical background who has ever argued that minor and major seconds are not real. that which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.

Quote by STONESHAKER
If I say a flat second, do you know what I am referring to? Yes, an interval of a semi-tone.


yes. however, it is far more common to refer to the interval of a semi-tone as a minor second, not a flat second. if you're in the key of Bb major, would you describe the distance between D and Eb as a flat second? most musicians would not, because "flat second" is not an interval. it implies an alteration (such as using a C natural in the key of B minor).

Quote by STONESHAKER
If I say a flat third, do you know what I am referring to? Yes, an interval of three semi-tones. Can it also be called a minor third? Yes. Do musicians frequently refer to thirds as "thirds and flat thirds"? Yes, probably because it is faster to say that then major third and minor third.


true. but i have never heard any knowledgeable musician use "flat third" to describe the distance between notes, similar to what i wrote in my previous paragraph. i've heard people say "you build a m7 chord with the flat third, fifth, and flat seventh above the root", but i've never heard anyone say "the distance between G and Bb is a flat third." it just doesn't hit the ear right, because, again, flat third is not an interval.


Quote by STONESHAKER
Why do I think it is better to refer to the interval as a flat second or a second? Because when you talk about the composition of a 9th chord, the major 9th chord and the minor 9th chord are referring to whether the third is major or minor. The 9th is still the 9th in both cases -- that is to say, a minor 9th chord does not contain a flat 2nd. It doesn't contain a 2nd either if you want to be technical - it contains a 9th, which is one octave higher than a 2nd. This is the other reason why I don't like using "minor" or "major" with seconds -- if I were to teach someone about ninth chords, they could get confused by the terminology which is why I only like to use "major" and "minor" when referring to chords in particular, but if I have to use it to describe an interval, I would use it for 3rds, 6ths, or 7ths and that's it.


and the seventh, not just the third. there are dominant 9th chords.

Quote by STONESHAKER
EDIT: I wouldn't even refer to 6ths as major and minor 6ths either for the same reason. What if you take a major sixth chord and flat the sixth? That's a sexy chord, especially if you remove the third, but it's still not a minor 6th chord.


if you have personal preferences, okay. but the fact of the matter is that intervals of a second, third, sixth, and seventh can be major or minor, just as the intervals of a unison, fourth, fifth, and octave are perfect. all intervals can be similarly made augmented or diminished.

intervals exist to describe the distance between tones, and it feels like the misunderstanding here is being perpetuated because you only seem to be thinking of intervals as they pertain to chord construction, when in fact they exist independently of it (and, in fact, existed before chords were in common use).
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#23
This conversation has left me intrigued

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
It is NOT wrong to call it a "panic chord"; it's just a non-traditional name for a minor-2. If you're going to insist that people who use the term "panic chord" are wrong, then you also have to say using the term "power chord" is wrong. But, see, that would be silly...
And thus spawned debate!

If you were to step into my shoes, you'd understand that some perceive me as a 'grammar Nazi'. You'd also acknowledge that I just prefer being 'right' as often as possible, but not in a manner that's condescending toward others. I just prefer that 'rightness' over either risking or actually being incorrect or lazy.

Now, between the two of us, I'm guaranteed to have the lesser amount of knowledge regarding theory. Nevertheless, am I not right in my assumption that 'power chord' and 'panic chord' are just the musical equivalent of slang? If so, I'd prefer ridding myself of saying 'power chord' while I'm still young, in terms of being a musician.

If that's the case, a 'panic chord' is either "a minor [2nd] interval played harmonically", as stated by [macashmack], or simply "a minor second dyad (diad?)". I believe a 'power chord' would then just be "a perfect 5th dyad/diad", right? I'm just not sure how I would differentiate, for example, between an E5 dyad (low/open E in E standard tuning) versus the octave up with the tonic on A (which, technically, should also be labeled an E5 dyad).

Hit me with everything you have, sir. This mind is malleable and extremely eager.
Heisenberg might have been here

I wouldn't be caught dead with a necrophiliac

I don't clean my room because I'm saving entropy the effort


Drugs may lead to nowhere, but at least it's the scenic route
#24
Quote by jhalterman
Now, between the two of us, I'm guaranteed to have the lesser amount of knowledge regarding theory. Nevertheless, am I not right in my assumption that 'power chord' and 'panic chord' are just the musical equivalent of slang? If so, I'd prefer ridding myself of saying 'power chord' while I'm still young, in terms of being a musician.

If that's the case, a 'panic chord' is either "a minor [2nd] interval played harmonically", as stated by [macashmack], or simply "a minor second dyad (diad?)". I believe a 'power chord' would then just be "a perfect 5th dyad/diad", right? I'm just not sure how I would differentiate, for example, between an E5 dyad (low/open E in E standard tuning) versus the octave up with the tonic on A (which, technically, should also be labeled an E5 dyad).


while power chords and panic chords are not really chords, there isn't much point in "ridding" yourself of them. it's important to be aware of common practice, regardless of its objectivity. i mean, no one is starting a movement to call pencil lead "pencil graphite" because there isn't any lead in pencils. if someone asks you for pencil lead, you'll know what they mean, because it's common to say that. the terms "power chords" and "panic chords" are best treated similarly.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#25
@Aeolian: I suppose if you were referring to the interval in the context of identifying what the intervals are, then I would be okay with calling it a minor and major second.

... but have you ever seen a table like this before?

Major triad: 1 3 5
Minor triad: 1 b3 5
Diminished triad: 1 b3 b5

I am one hundred percent certain that you have if you have read any article or text explaining the intervallic formulas behind chords, so you are wrong. You have heard "musicians" refer to it as a flat third or a flat second in the context of chord construction. If that's not enough for you, you can google the words "chord construction flat third" and see that indeed, other "musicians" use them too.

Oh hey, speaking of context -- what was the OP talking about again? Oh yeah, what CHORD is this? Granted, it's technically a harmonic interval and not a chord, but he didn't know that and so within the context of chord construction, flat second is a more appropriate and less ambiguous term to use in the education of someone about music. If you still disagree I'm not going to come up with any more examples as I have illustrated my point quite well enough for a reasonably intelligent person to follow my logic, and at the end of the day I only snapped at sandy vagina because I thought he sounded so pretentious saying "Don't call it a panic chord, that's wrong." Like I'm going to tell some beginner that's never picked up the guitar before not to call a perfect fifth a power chord? Get real, when you hit beginners with music theory right off the bat they get bored and drop the instrument, so you get them making music immediately by showing them something easy that can be applied in many situations such as the power chord. Do you eventually teach them that it's really a perfect fifth? Of course, but not until they want to know. In the meantime I'll continue to think of the major seventh chord as the "lurv chord" and the dominant seventh sharp ninth as the "Hendrix chord" and whatever other bullshit nicknames I come up with because I can and will, and people on UG will object to it and spend their afternoon referencing articles and Wikipedia and texts because I conned them into it and then act all butthurt about it.

edit: that's how you ~ninja a thread
Last edited by STONESHAKER at Feb 11, 2014,
#26
Quote by STONESHAKER
Stop calling them minor 2nds, they are referred to as flat seconds because the second degree does not determine whether a chord is major or minor, e.g. a minor 9th chord contains the natural second, but it does contain a minor third, which is why it is a minor 9th and not a major 9th.

It is for this same reason why you would refer to a flat fifth as a flat fifth or diminished fifth and not a minor fifth.

This is why you got so much attention. It has nothing to do with people being butthurt or having a problem with nicknames you might use.

minor seconds do exist. All chord are made up of intervals. The ninth in an add9 chord is a major ninth. What does that mean exactly? What is a major ninth? It's an INTERVAL from the root. A major ninth from the root.

Also the minor third has NOTHING to do with the reason we call a flat fifth a diminished fifth and not a minor fifth. The fifth is a perfect interval. It is not major or minor. When we lower a perfect interval it becomes diminished. THIS is why we call a flat five a diminished fifth.

The notes of the chord form intervals with the root of the chord. It is by way of these intervals that we name the chord.

A major second interval lowered a half step becomes minor. Similarly a ninth interval that is lowered one semitone it becomes a minor ninth interval. So the 9th in an add9 is a major ninth. When you "flat" that note it becomes a minor ninth. This is a statement of fact. No matter how much you argue you will never make this less true. So all those people that described the interval he was playing as a minor second are correct.

What the TS was playing is a minor second.

Also, ninja'd refers to someone that sneaks in and does something you were going to do while you are typing your post. Then you hit submit and see that someone beat you to it. They were quick and sneaky like a ninja.

1 b3 5 b9 = Root, minor third, perfect fifth, minor ninth = minor flat nine chord

In chord names it is common to refer to the note as "flat" but it doesn't change the fact that it is a diminished or minor interval in the chord. The flat nine is a minor ninth.

When naming chords the triad is named first and always assumed major unless noted otherwise. The seventh is assumed minor unless noted otherwise. It's not a flat seven nor a minor seven when you name a chord it's simply a 7 and that means a minor seventh.

This way when you see Maj in a chord name you know it is referring to the 7th and not the quality of the triad. Similarly, if you see "m" to indicate minor in a chord name you know it is referring to the triad because the 7th is assumed minor when naming chords.

When you see diminished it could refer to either the triad or the seventh so you have half diminished in which half of the chord is diminished (the triad but not the seventh aka m7b5) or fully diminished seventh chords in which both the triad and the seventh are diminished ( 1 b3 b5 bb7 = diminished triad with diminished seventh).

All other intervals are assumed major unless noted otherwise.

Yes when naming the chord we might use the term "flat" to avoid confusion but that doesn't change the fact that the interval in question is minor (or diminished).

Note that A7 is an A major triad with a minor seventh. When naming chords it's simply called a seven not a "flat seven" or minor seventh, even though it is actually a minor seven.

My point is that there are a few naming conventions when it comes to chords but that doesn't mean that intervals don't apply to chords, nor that using major minor augmented or diminished to describe an interval (even if it is a part of a chord) is in anyway wrong.
Si
#27
Quote by STONESHAKER
@Aeolian: I suppose if you were referring to the interval in the context of identifying what the intervals are, then I would be okay with calling it a minor and major second.


i don't give a shit what you're okay with. that's exactly what the thread was about. it is my contention that you stop being difficult, reread what the knowledgeable regulars are talking about, and recognize your folly. you're so wrapped up in your own knowledge that you're not even able (forget willing) to admit your fallacy. i'm glad you think you know so much -- but to a veteran, the gaps in your knowledge are clear as day.

frankly, you're not worth my goddamn time. let 20Tigers deal with you. he cares enough to try and help the self-righteous, where i'd rather have them go forward into the world and let darwinism weed them out.

at the end of the day, if you are going to argue in even the most trivial capacity that this is not a minor second:

e|---|
B|-5-|
G|-8-|
D|---|
A|---|
E|---|
you should pick up a textbook and crack down before you even think of telling other people what it is, let alone discussing it with other theorists.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#28
@Aeolian: I'm done. It is evident you are not even reading my replies. I know every simple and compound interval cold, I know how they are inverted, I know them on every possible combination of strings, and I can identify them at will even when used in chords.

Since your attention span is apparently limited to that of a twelve year old, let me rephrase my message in one, concise statement.

What I am arguing is that in the context of CHORD CONSTRUCTION, the term "flat second" would be less ambiguous and easier for a newbie to understand than "minor 2nd" for the reasons I have explained a million times over.

If you want to go ahead and refer to it as a major or minor second in the context of explaining what intervals are, how many there are, and what each one is, that's fine. Sure, go ahead. At the end of the day, all we are arguing about is what to call a musical idea that has already been defined in more ways than one (a half-step, a semitone, a minor second, a flatted second... ****, we can even call the "minor 9th" interval an augmented octave if we really felt like it and they would all be correct ways to refer to the interval in question)

I started this whole debate on purpose because I knew it would piss off you "5%" regulars because I can't stand you "regulars" that think you're gods gift to humanity because you can sit on UG and spend half your time flaming people and the other half giving people stupid, poorly constructed answers to their questions that leave them with more questions.

The worst part about it is that you do not really care or not whether you are helping the people on this forum, you simply answer their questions to feed your own ego, a tell-tale sign that you probably don't know much more than the basics of music theory and are insecure about your own playing and knowledge.

As far as pissing off the 5% goes, I'd say mission accomplished!

In the meantime, I'll continue to hang out in MT just to piss off you "regulars" by providing newbies with better answers than you can provide because quite frankly, you suck at teaching and explaining things and I do not. The evidence in this lies that people pay me money to teach them this shit whereas I'd wager your personality, particularly your arrogance, would prevent you from having that kind of meaningful relationship with a student.
Last edited by STONESHAKER at Feb 11, 2014,
#29
Can't believe you guys are still carrying on conversation with a user who straight up admitted to trolling you all.
.
#30
Quote by Nietsche
Can't believe you guys are still carrying on conversation with a user who straight up admitted to trolling you all.


Love this.
#32
You're right MattyBoy. This is hilarious to me because I count at least two people I have completely riled up to the point of posting comments on my UG profile. Hah!

At the end of the day, music is something I cherish and nothing pisses me off more than when someone turns playing music or teaching music into a pissing contest the way the "5%" here at MT tend to when addressing the masses. That's why I trolled them instead of trolling the newcomers like they do.
#33
^You were just as much a part of the pissing contest as any of the so called "5%" that you're accusing. If you were really interested in education then you wouldn't be interested in using negative tactics in your arguments for the purpose of pissing people off. Which is exactly what you've admitted you were doing.

The question has been answered. It's a minor second played harmonically.

This thread is over.
Si