#1
I need some help please. So many sites and discussions (this one included) have contradictory views on this. I have been gigging for ages using a 60W all valve Peavey 6505 212. I never take master volume of either channel past 4/10. It's plenty loud enough of course. I bought a Tiny Terror and 112 cab for home practice, and love the tone. It's suits my band moving away from metal to more classic rock. But unmic'd on full whack at band practice, although the 15W Tiny and closed back Orange 112 (efficient V30 speaker) sounded awesome in tone, it didn't have the volume for leads to get above the drummer (using a £5000 kit, seems incredibly loud even though he wasn't thrashing it), my rhythm parts JUST about kept up. So I need something in between. I'm not worried about clean headroom, but I need my leads to cut through. I'm hooked on the Orange set up and tone now for the more classic rock direction, but I have to watch both budget and portability (for health reasons I struggle with the 6505 212 combo and love the idea of a smallish portable head and an open back 212 cab or two. But here's my dilemma, I;m no sound expert. The rule of thumb seems to be that doubling the output of a valve amp e.g. 15W Tiny to 30W Dual Terror, will result in a barely perceptible increase in volume. But then doubling again (in theory again barely perceptible) takes it to 60W, the same as my closed back 6505 212 with relatively inefficient Sheffield stock speakers, which is monstrously loud with plenty to spare. So will the Dual give me what I need over the Tiny, will it be middle ground between the Tiny and the 6505, will using open back 212 cab(s) make the difference? Or is forking out for a Dual Terror and one or two 212 Orange cabs gonna leave me with the same problem I still have?! Thanks for reading; any advice very gratefully received!!!!
#2
A lot of it has to do with the amp itself, some amps just cut really well and some don't. A few (cheap) ideas to help out:

1.) Elevate your cab, this keeps the sound closer to your ears and ultimately makes it easier to hear.

2.) EQ pedal. If I remember, the TT doesn't have a loop so this isn't as useful, but even in front of the amp with the right frequency boosted, it can have an impact on how much you cut through. I boost my upper mids precisely because it slices through a mix like hot butter.

3.) Bigger cab. While the 112 is awesome, a 212 will spread the sound out more. Sometimes this is all you need, definitely has helped me to get that little bit extra I need.

You could get the DT, but I don't think it will really make a huge difference volume wise (take with a grain of salt, I haven't compared the two).
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#3
Thanks for your feedback. But why won't a Dual at 30W have significantly more volume than a Tiny at 15W, knowing that the 60W 6505 is a huge amount louder!? Some threads even claim the Dual is a lot louder than the Tiny, but others say no real difference. The optimum has to be a 50W Rockerverb I know, but too expensive, bulky and heavy!
#4
pure math will tell you that your 60 watt amp is only 1.5 times (6 dB) louder than the 15 watt amp. obviously it doesn't feel this way.

i had a TT for a while, i also liked the amp, but it does have volume and headroom issues and i believe this is mainly because of the EL84 tubes it runs in it's power section. while these tubes are great for achieving power amp distortion at quite reasonable volumes, they tend to be quite poor at staying clean and providing headroom. this is what i always felt like i was fighting.

your closed back cabinet is not exactly helping either, it is making your sound dispersion quite directional.

if you want to try to make your TT work try raising it off the ground and get it closer to ear level. i played mine on top of a 4x12 cabinet so that my TT's cab was around chest level and this made it much easier to hear. also make sure the cabinet is pointed toward the band so that you are directly in the 'beam' of sound coming from the speaker.

if you don't feel that is good enough then just about any amp running a set of EL34's or 6L6 tubes should suite you quite fine. maybe something like a fender deville amp.
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#5
I've got a hunch, after researching loads of forums, that even the 15W Tiny will sound very much fuller and maybe even louder with an open back 212. The Orange 112 is great at home, but sounds really boxy cranked up live. My hunch says the 30W Dual with 212 cab(s) should do it, but it's a lot of cash to potentially find my self in the same situation! Why is that 6505 212 so bloody loud?! If only I could get a vintage valve tone out of it I'd be happy, but even on rhythm channel only and lowish gain, low presence, boosted mids, it still sound like a metal amp!
#6
Quote by drslackbladder
Thanks for your feedback. But why won't a Dual at 30W have significantly more volume than a Tiny at 15W, knowing that the 60W 6505 is a huge amount louder!? Some threads even claim the Dual is a lot louder than the Tiny, but others say no real difference. The optimum has to be a 50W Rockerverb I know, but too expensive, bulky and heavy!

nope, won't be much volume difference. when you double the wattage, you add 3db of volume, which is just perceptible. it has more to do with headroom (how loud the amp gets before it starts to break up).

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/resources/article/Wattage-Speaker-Efficiency-and-Amplifier-Loudness/m710158

30 watts is enough to gig with. tiny terror hasn't got much headroom from what i can recall.
#7
I've done the raising to ear level with the TT and 112, but being unmic'd at most gigs it needs to point to the crowd, then loud drummer can't hear it. 30W Dual Terror and open 212 cab(s) is the way I want to go, just don't wanna splash the cash and then have to dig the Peavey out again to be heard by all….
#8
TS, like I said earlier, a lot depends on the amp. As Gumbi mentioned, the TT has little wimpy EL84s, as does the DT, and they just don't hold headroom long, making it hard to cut above your bandmates. That's why I doubt the DT will be much louder. I will reinforce that raising a cab (and getting a new cab) would help you be heard much better.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#9
Quote by NakedInTheRain
nope, won't be much volume difference. when you double the wattage, you add 3db of volume, which is just perceptible. it has more to do with headroom (how loud the amp gets before it starts to break up).

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/resources/article/Wattage-Speaker-Efficiency-and-Amplifier-Loudness/m710158

30 watts is enough to gig with. tiny terror hasn't got much headroom from what i can recall.



This is what's confusing me; 15 to 30 is only 3db increase, but 30 to 60 (the same as my 6505) should be another 3db increase, and my 6505 is ridiculously loud. I guess I'm just hoping someone can say the 30W Dual Terror will be halfway between the 15W TT and the 60W 6505…..
#10
Quote by drslackbladder
This is what's confusing me; 15 to 30 is only 3db increase, but 30 to 60 (the same as my 6505) should be another 3db increase, and my 6505 is ridiculously loud. I guess I'm just hoping someone can say the 30W Dual Terror will be halfway between the 15W TT and the 60W 6505…..


We can't though. There is a lot more that goes into how loud an amp is, the 6505 is a HELLACIOUSLY loud amp, it was designed with the gigging musician in mind, the Terror series was designed with exactly the contrary in mind. An amps circuit plays a much bigger role in how loud it is than a somewhat arbitrary number associated with it. Wattage ratings usually are rough numbers anyway, Very seldom is an amp putting out exactly what it is said to put out.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#11
Quote by dementiacaptain
We can't though. There is a lot more that goes into how loud an amp is, the 6505 is a HELLACIOUSLY loud amp, it was designed with the gigging musician in mind, the Terror series was designed with exactly the contrary in mind. An amps circuit plays a much bigger role in how loud it is than a somewhat arbitrary number associated with it. Wattage ratings usually are rough numbers anyway, Very seldom is an amp putting out exactly what it is said to put out.


Yeah, maybe that's the crux of my problem. Thanks for everyone's input.
#12
Just because an amp has "x" watts does not mean it is louder than an amp with "y" watts.

A lot of it has to do with the circuit design. Look at the Vox AC30 it is a 30 watt amp that will blow most 100 waters out of the water on volume.

yes wattage affects headroom, the design of the circuit dictates volume.
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#13
Quote by drslackbladder
I've done the raising to ear level with the TT and 112, but being unmic'd at most gigs it needs to point to the crowd, then loud drummer can't hear it. 30W Dual Terror and open 212 cab(s) is the way I want to go, just don't wanna splash the cash and then have to dig the Peavey out again to be heard by all….
The question that immediately springs to mind is, "why are you unmiked at most gigs?" Miking it is the answer to your problem.
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#14
Its unfortunate but I've learned there is no way to judge the volume of an amp without actually hearing it. As others have mentioned, wattage ratings are nearly useless and serve only to be a marketing gimmick. The whole "double the watts for a barely perceptible increase in volume" has never made sense to me either. Its clearly a very noticable difference when you hear it in person.
#15
no, depending on the amp, cab and speaker all are usable for gigs.

the difference is the speaker, cab, the headroom you need or want, and the power you need or want. some tone is not created by low wattage amps. some tone is not produced with high wattage amps. its just that simple.

cabs and speakers make a HUGE difference, deisgn of amp etc. speakers can have a fairly noticable effect on raw volume. there are a reason why a crappy 15 watt practice amp and a 2000 hand wired combo with a top of the line speaker are different.

some of the loudest amps ive plugged into are Dr. Z amps, and they are almost all under 50 watts. the one i played was 18 watts. i would never buy it, its do darn loud.

my amp is 40 watts, if that gives comparison.

like i said about tone, for high gain generally low wattage does not give you the raw punch, power, and huge chugging bottom end that a high gain 100 watter can. it just cant. perhaps it can be voiced the same, but if you plug into a 4x12 and a 100 watt head, you hit a chord and just feel it.
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Last edited by ikey_ at Feb 9, 2014,