#1
ditching my 4X12 orange cab. too big and to loud for home. plus, i hate that ugly orange color lol. found out about a custom cab builder in washington that does awesome work. heavy duty, braced all to hell and back cabs. he also builds iso cabs aswell. were going with 2X12 k100 and v30 combo, all white tolex with black grill cloth. thinking about doing some white led's. he doesnt do that. that would be my addition. i just want to make sure i want this speaker combo. i love v30's but they lack in low end crunch. most of his cab he builds uses texas heat and tonker. will the k100 and v30 combo out perform his? i play death and modern metal. i will be playing through a 6505. soon to have bias mod. heres some pics of one his cabs. waiting for more pics. this is a rough build unfinished.

"Yeah, my 2x12 is a little bit larger than normal, the speaker face is recessed and slanted for better sound projection on the floor, I use thicker wood, and make my cabs heavy. Reason being is that you can have a 2x12 that sounds like a 4x12 "


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#2
Yeah, that is a pretty awesome speaker combo. It's what I have I'm my White Box 2x12. Lots of punch and am ultra deep low end. It's perfect for most modern sounds imo. I can't compare it to the Texas heat/tonker you asked about since I'm not as familiar with them; but K100/v30 certainly would not be a bad choice.
#3
a V30 and K-100 is pretty metal and damn good combination. can't really speak on the tonker and texas heat as i have not tried those out. i use a man 'o war and swamp thing combo for my metal amp and it is quite good, thinking about switching the man 'o war out for a texas heat as i have heard nothing but good things about that speaker.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#4
Just for what it's worth -- that amount of slant on the face isn't going to do much at all.

Using heavier (thicker) wood is a solution to a problem that probably doesn't exist. In fact, you'll find that the folks who use *serious* power (I'm thinking full-range bass cabinets running 900W and punching out some serious bottom end) have moved to *thinner* plywood - 1/2" - and are using some fairly sophisticated bracing internally to stiffen the cabinets. The result is an enormously capable cabinet that really locks in power and yet is light enough to one-hand.

There's also this -- I'm looking at the frequency response of both the Vintage 30 and the G12K-100, and the Vintage 30's frequency response is rated down to 70Hz while the G12K-100 goes to 80Hz. Take a look at the frequency response graphs and you'll find that the G12K-100 doesn't really have "more bottom" -- it simply has a bit less midrange response. In short, I think the "conventional wisdom" of matching these two speakers might be a bit suspect.
#5
Quote by dspellman
Just for what it's worth -- that amount of slant on the face isn't going to do much at all.

Using heavier (thicker) wood is a solution to a problem that probably doesn't exist. In fact, you'll find that the folks who use *serious* power (I'm thinking full-range bass cabinets running 900W and punching out some serious bottom end) have moved to *thinner* plywood - 1/2" - and are using some fairly sophisticated bracing internally to stiffen the cabinets. The result is an enormously capable cabinet that really locks in power and yet is light enough to one-hand.

There's also this -- I'm looking at the frequency response of both the Vintage 30 and the G12K-100, and the Vintage 30's frequency response is rated down to 70Hz while the G12K-100 goes to 80Hz. Take a look at the frequency response graphs and you'll find that the G12K-100 doesn't really have "more bottom" -- it simply has a bit less midrange response. In short, I think the "conventional wisdom" of matching these two speakers might be a bit suspect.



wow. you like to rain on parades's, huh? bash this dudes cab design and raise level of suspicion with the 2 speakers ive chosen. your a winner! first: i build hifi and pro audio monitors and bass horn cabs. i know all about bracing, dove-tailing... all that crap. i can build 2 bass horns that will rip your double wide trailer in half! dont come to this thread bashing this dude's design. do you have a wood shop? who the hell would want a tour ready cab made out of 1/2 birch ply? seriously! nobody does that crap. i dont care how much bracing you use(too much will throw off internal dimensions)... the ply will wear down over time. ftr, ive built monitor cabs with 5 sheets of 3/4 birch ply for each side. cab is 3 1/2 wide with a foot and half internal measurement. also, my buddy is a very well known producer. this guy doesnt have any random jack-off jo blow building him custom iso and 2X12 cabs. and how the hell do you think a front loaded recessed baffle does not help bring the sound up? you do realize speakers are like beams right? 60-40... 30-70.. 80-20. do the fvcking math. oh yeah... suck an egg!
#7
Quote by Count FurFur
wow. you like to rain on parades's, huh? bash this dudes cab design and raise level of suspicion with the 2 speakers ive chosen. your a winner! first: i build hifi and pro audio monitors and bass horn cabs. i know all about bracing, dove-tailing... all that crap. i can build 2 bass horns that will rip your double wide trailer in half! dont come to this thread bashing this dude's design. do you have a wood shop? who the hell would want a tour ready cab made out of 1/2 birch ply? seriously! nobody does that crap. i dont care how much bracing you use(too much will throw off internal dimensions)... the ply will wear down over time. ftr, ive built monitor cabs with 5 sheets of 3/4 birch ply for each side. cab is 3 1/2 wide with a foot and half internal measurement. also, my buddy is a very well known producer. this guy doesnt have any random jack-off jo blow building him custom iso and 2X12 cabs. and how the hell do you think a front loaded recessed baffle does not help bring the sound up? you do realize speakers are like beams right? 60-40... 30-70.. 80-20. do the fvcking math. oh yeah... suck an egg!




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Peavey 6505+ w/ Avatar 212 cab
Ibanez TS9, ISP Decimator, MXR 10 Band EQ
-Digitech RP1000
#8
Quote by Count FurFur
wow. you like to rain on parades's, huh? bash this dudes cab design and raise level of suspicion with the 2 speakers ive chosen. your a winner! first: i build hifi and pro audio monitors and bass horn cabs.


I don't have a woodshop. Always wanted one. There are a whole lot of good carpenters building speaker cabinets. Very few of them have speaker design credentials.

Here's some math for you. A speaker, on its own, will begin to exhibit beaming above certain frequencies according to the formula 13,500 (the speed of sound in inches per second) divided by the actual cone diameter (in this case, a 12" speaker has an actual cone diameter of about 10.3"), so a single 12" speaker will begin to beam frequencies above about 1350Hz. Guitar strings are E2=82.41Hz, A2=110Hz, D3=146.8Hz, G3=196Hz, B3=246.9Hz, E4=329.6Hz. A 24 fret guitar at the 24th fret does an E6= 1319Hz. So a single 12" speaker on its own does pretty well (except for the harmonics that show up between 1319Hz and about 4500Hz, where most guitar speakers roll off drastically).

TWO speakers acts like a single oblong speaker of about 26" x 10". In the 26" (width) dimension, the cabinet will begin to beam at around 650Hz or so, while the 10" (height, in the case of a horizontal cabinet), will retain the characteristics of a single speaker, more or less. In other words, tilting the speakers back by 10 degrees or so won't make much difference at all in dispersion. What WOULD make a difference is if you rotated the speakers individually out toward the sides or in toward each other. The best dispersion for a 2x12 cabinet is not a horizontal cabinet in any case, but one standing on end; the top speaker is closer to your ear and you have the maximum amount of dispersion width wise. If you really wanted to slant anything, it would be the top speaker:



But you knew that, right?

Folks have been building internally braced cabinets (the internal bracing is part of the *design* of the cabinet and is considered as part of the internal dimensions during the design process) for Pro Audio and Bass use for several years now, and they go on tour and not only survive, but thrive. They don't cover these with tolex, either; most are coated with Duratex or even LineX (yeah, the pickup truck bed liner). On a LineX-covered cabinet it's usually the other gear that has to worry about being bashed. The military uses the stuff for anti-spalling and explosion mitigation. The result is a lighter and stronger cabinet.

Bass horn cabinets really don't enter into the discussion, but it's worth noting that most bass players, especially those who play five and six-string bases, don't use them. The problem is that unless you develop a HUGE horn opening (often by stacking four of them in a 2x2 configuration), most manageable bass horns emphasize lower mids and don't go deep enough to be accurate. They were designed for two reasons: to get the most out of fairly wimpy tube amplification in theaters 80 years ago and (more recently) to push bass (which tends to be omnidirectional) in a specific direction. Great for PAs in outdoor venues, but not particularly necessary elsewhere.

Here's the thing -- most guitar cabinets aren't really "designed." The designs most guitarists use were chalked out on the floor of a factory 60 years ago (literally, in the case of the Marshall 4x12) simply to accommodate a given number of speakers. They didn't have Thiele/Small parameters (these weren't even widely known among audio engineers about until the mid-70's) to work with. When Marshall 4x12 users began to complain about a strange but persistent and repeatable resonance at a wavelength that corresponded to the diagonal of the back panel of a 30 x 30 size 4x12, the solution was the kludge chunk of 2x2 or 2x4 you see in the middle of those cabinets.



This, however, is what you see on the interior of modern bass design cabinets by folks like BarefacedBass and www.greenboy.us. The fEARful 15/6/1, for example, will handle up to 900W with great efficiency and with no "farting out". That requires a very stiff cabinet (oilcanning will rob bass power). But the other result of using a thinner sidewall and enhanced bracing (coupled with neodymium-magnet speakers) is a lighter cabinet.




Other, more modern methods of cabinet construction include composite materials (and bass players are using those as well) that are even stronger and much lighter. This is one of Dave Green's designs rendered in composite, but some custom builders are doing them in carbon fiber. This cabinet (a pair of 15" Eminence Kappalite 3015LF low end drivers, a couple of 18Sound 6" mids driver and a 1" tweeter) will easily put the 160-lb 8x10s on the trailer and will offer excellent dispersion as well.



As for your speaker choices in that 2x12 cabinet; address the frequency response charts provided by Celestion and the spec sheets they offer.
Last edited by dspellman at Feb 11, 2014,
#9
Quote by dspellman
I don't have a woodshop. Always wanted one. There are a whole lot of good carpenters building speaker cabinets. Very few of them have speaker design credentials.

Here's some math for you. A speaker, on its own, will begin to exhibit beaming above certain frequencies according to the formula 13,500 (the speed of sound in inches per second) divided by the actual cone diameter (in this case, a 12" speaker has an actual cone diameter of about 10.3"), so a single 12" speaker will begin to beam frequencies above about 1350Hz. Guitar strings are E2=82.41Hz, A2=110Hz, D3=146.8Hz, G3=196Hz, B3=246.9Hz, E4=329.6Hz. A 24 fret guitar at the 24th fret does an E6= 1319Hz. So a single 12" speaker on its own does pretty well (except for the harmonics that show up between 1319Hz and about 4500Hz, where most guitar speakers roll off drastically).

TWO speakers acts like a single oblong speaker of about 26" x 10". In the 26" (width) dimension, the cabinet will begin to beam at around 650Hz or so, while the 10" (height, in the case of a horizontal cabinet), will retain the characteristics of a single speaker, more or less. In other words, tilting the speakers back by 10 degrees or so won't make much difference at all in dispersion. What WOULD make a difference is if you rotated the speakers individually out toward the sides or in toward each other. The best dispersion for a 2x12 cabinet is not a horizontal cabinet in any case, but one standing on end; the top speaker is closer to your ear and you have the maximum amount of dispersion width wise. If you really wanted to slant anything, it would be the top speaker:



But you knew that, right?

Folks have been building internally braced cabinets (the internal bracing is part of the *design* of the cabinet and is considered as part of the internal dimensions during the design process) for Pro Audio and Bass use for several years now, and they go on tour and not only survive, but thrive. They don't cover these with tolex, either; most are coated with Duratex or even LineX (yeah, the pickup truck bed liner). On a LineX-covered cabinet it's usually the other gear that has to worry about being bashed. The military uses the stuff for anti-spalling and explosion mitigation. The result is a lighter and stronger cabinet.

Bass horn cabinets really don't enter into the discussion, but it's worth noting that most bass players, especially those who play five and six-string bases, don't use them. The problem is that unless you develop a HUGE horn opening (often by stacking four of them in a 2x2 configuration), most manageable bass horns emphasize lower mids and don't go deep enough to be accurate. They were designed for two reasons: to get the most out of fairly wimpy tube amplification in theaters 80 years ago and (more recently) to push bass (which tends to be omnidirectional) in a specific direction. Great for PAs in outdoor venues, but not particularly necessary elsewhere.

Here's the thing -- most guitar cabinets aren't really "designed." The designs most guitarists use were chalked out on the floor of a factory 60 years ago (literally, in the case of the Marshall 4x12) simply to accommodate a given number of speakers. They didn't have Thiele/Small parameters (these weren't even widely known among audio engineers about until the mid-70's) to work with. When Marshall 4x12 users began to complain about a strange but persistent and repeatable resonance at a wavelength that corresponded to the diagonal of the back panel of a 30 x 30 size 4x12, the solution was the kludge chunk of 2x2 or 2x4 you see in the middle of those cabinets.



This, however, is what you see on the interior of modern bass design cabinets by folks like BarefacedBass and www.greenboy.us. The fEARful 15/6/1, for example, will handle up to 900W with great efficiency and with no "farting out". That requires a very stiff cabinet (oilcanning will rob bass power). But the other result of using a thinner sidewall and enhanced bracing (coupled with neodymium-magnet speakers) is a lighter cabinet.




Other, more modern methods of cabinet construction include composite materials (and bass players are using those as well) that are even stronger and much lighter. This is one of Dave Green's designs rendered in composite, but some custom builders are doing them in carbon fiber. This cabinet (a pair of 15" Eminence Kappalite 3015LF low end drivers, a couple of 18Sound 6" mids driver and a 1" tweeter) will easily put the 160-lb 8x10s on the trailer and will offer excellent dispersion as well.



As for your speaker choices in that 2x12 cabinet; address the frequency response charts provided by Celestion and the spec sheets they offer.



dude... can you design and build custom passive crossovers? i can... all this jibber you copy and pasted, i actually understand the science. im not going there with you about any of this. ftr, most manufactures dont even go by specs to build a cab to the exact driver. they go by standard size to accommodate. throw all that science right out the window when it comes to building guitar speaker cabs.

here's a design by me. when you get to this level, then we can talk. until then, pull your lip over your head and swallow





#10
I've had this thought for a few weeks now, but didn't feel compelled to share until now. For someone who joined UG this month, TS sure throws around quite a lot of attitude.


If you're asking for advice but you know all the answers already/don't like the input you receive, maybe you shouldn't ask any questions?
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#11
Quote by KailM
I've had this thought for a few weeks now, but didn't feel compelled to share until now. For someone who joined UG this month, TS sure throws around quite a lot of attitude.


If you're asking for advice but you know all the answers already/don't like the input you receive, maybe you shouldn't ask any questions?



i was asking about speaker selection. enclosure design? not so much. very simple...
#12
That amount of slant would work ok if you get it off the ground, even a milk crate will get it high enough probably. You want it pointing at your head, you don't have ears in your knees.
Even better, strap your head to the cab and stick it all on an angled amp stand. The more it points at your head the better it will be on stage.


K100/V30 is a great combo. I've never used a tonker so I can't comment on that really, sorry.
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#13
Quote by dspellman
There's also this -- I'm looking at the frequency response of both the Vintage 30 and the G12K-100, and the Vintage 30's frequency response is rated down to 70Hz while the G12K-100 goes to 80Hz. Take a look at the frequency response graphs and you'll find that the G12K-100 doesn't really have "more bottom" -- it simply has a bit less midrange response. In short, I think the "conventional wisdom" of matching these two speakers might be a bit suspect.

Guitar doesn't need to reproduce frequencies lower than ~100Hz. Why people want cabs with a huge bottom end in the first place makes no sense at all. You have bass instruments for a reason.

The big difference between these two speakers isn't the low end response, per se, it's the mid response. The GK100 has much more low mids, while the V30 has more high mids. Together, they balance each other nicely.
Quote by Dave_Mc
I've had tube amps for a while now, but never actually had any go down on me
Quote by jj1565
maybe you're not saying the right things? an amp likes to know you care.





www.SanctityStudios.com
#14
Quote by Count FurFur
dude... can you design and build custom passive crossovers? i can... all this jibber you copy and pasted, i actually understand the science. im not going there with you about any of this. ftr, most manufactures dont even go by specs to build a cab to the exact driver. they go by standard size to accommodate. throw all that science right out the window when it comes to building guitar speaker cabs.

here's a design by me. when you get to this level, then we can talk. until then, pull your lip over your head and swallow


He gives you facts, mathematics and examples and you give attitude and pictures in response?

You're coming off like a knob, giving the appearance that if you were half as smart as you think you are, you would be about twice as smart as you actually are.

Really, your last sentence is all anyone needs to read to know where your 'expertise' lies if you think that the science doesn't matter...

We have engineers, mathematicians, folks with Doctoral degrees and more than a few doctoral candidates here, as well as some incredibly sharp people currently pursuing degrees, both undergraduate and advanced. You picked the wrong forum to try swinging your dick around in.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Feb 11, 2014,
#15
Quote by MatrixClaw
Guitar doesn't need to reproduce frequencies lower than ~100Hz. Why people want cabs with a huge bottom end in the first place makes no sense at all. You have bass instruments for a reason.

The big difference between these two speakers isn't the low end response, per se, it's the mid response. The GK100 has much more low mids, while the V30 has more high mids. Together, they balance each other nicely.


+1

i am really not looking for a substantial low end response from my guitar speaker. i want room for bass in the mix.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#16
Quote by Arby911
He gives you facts, mathematics and examples and you give attitude and pictures in response?

You're coming off like a knob, giving the appearance that if you were half as smart as you think you are, you would be about twice as smart as you actually are.

Really, your last sentence is all anyone needs to read to know where your 'expertise' lies if you think that the science doesn't matter...

We have engineers, mathematicians, folks with Doctoral degrees and more than a few doctoral candidates here, as well as some incredibly sharp people currently pursuing degrees, both undergraduate and advanced. You picked the wrong forum to try swinging your dick around in.


This.

Furfur, you're coming off arrogant and ignorant. Neither one of those are flattering. Instead of bashing a guy who has clearly presented substantial information that he knows what he's talking about, maybe take some time and listen, learn, share and reciprocate.
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#17
*sees discussion on cabinet construction*

*sees 4x12 Crate cabinet and Crate heads*

*turns around and walks away*
WTLTL 2011
#18
Quote by Arby911
He gives you facts, mathematics and examples and you give attitude and pictures in response?

You're coming off like a knob, giving the appearance that if you were half as smart as you think you are, you would be about twice as smart as you actually are.

Really, your last sentence is all anyone needs to read to know where your 'expertise' lies if you think that the science doesn't matter...

We have engineers, mathematicians, folks with Doctoral degrees and more than a few doctoral candidates here, as well as some incredibly sharp people currently pursuing degrees, both undergraduate and advanced. You picked the wrong forum to try swinging your dick around in.


I could fill up this forum full of design, future and past builds of mine. You bet your ass I'm cocky. This is why I'm successful. I purse absolute sound perfection. Fyi, All that ass hat did was copy and paste information. Would you come to your father in your youth and ask him how he makes your mother cum? Would a squire wield a sword and go into battle before being honored into knighthood? He's not on my level, nor many of you to question me. Speaker selection... back on topic please.
Last edited by Count FurFur at Feb 11, 2014,
#19
Quote by Mark G
*sees discussion on cabinet construction*

*sees 4x12 Crate cabinet and Crate heads*

*turns around and walks away*
*sees discussion on cabinet construction*

*sees the selfish train wreck that two members made the thread into*

*turns around and walks away*
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#20
Quote by Count FurFur
I could fill up this forum full of design, future and past builds of mine. You bet your ass I'm cocky. This is why I'm successful. I purse absolute sound perfection. Fyi, All that ass hat did was copy and paste information. Would you come to your father in your youth and ask him how he makes your mother cum? Would a squire wield a sword and go into battle before being honored into knighthood? He's not on my level, nor many of you to question me. Speaker selection... back on topic please.




Have a nice day.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#21
Going to close this thread.

This isn't the pit, if you want to argue and be douches to each other, take it there.
Quote by Dave_Mc
I've had tube amps for a while now, but never actually had any go down on me
Quote by jj1565
maybe you're not saying the right things? an amp likes to know you care.





www.SanctityStudios.com
#22
Quote by Count FurFur
I could fill up this forum full of design, future and past builds of mine. You bet your ass I'm cocky. This is why I'm successful. I purse absolute sound perfection. Fyi, All that ass hat did was copy and paste information. Would you come to your father in your youth and ask him how he makes your mother cum? Would a squire wield a sword and go into battle before being honored into knighthood? He's not on my level, nor many of you to question me. Speaker selection... back on topic please.


So much arrogance, but so little proof.

Are we just supposed to believe that you're the best just because you say you are?

As it stands, the guy who disagreed with you has provided some foundation for his position (even if he did just copy and paste it). You have rebutted him with "I'm right because I'm smarter than you."

If you're smarter, prove it.

EDIT: INB4 THE LOCK!
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I mean in Kyle's case, it is in the best interest of mankind that he impregnate anything that looks at him funny...