#1
Hello!

I'm new to amp modling. Everyone claim knowing differences from Real amplifyer to software amplifyer.

I give you recording of 6 equal riffs. Everone is the same riff but run through five Software Amplifyers and One Real Amplifyer:
Marshall JCM800, Amplitube 3, TH2, GUitar Rig 5, Vandal and Jamvox

Can you make out the Real JCM800???

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9WOSUQ26LWqUWlJb0VuSHJEeFU/edit?usp=sharing

Sorry for bad riff and very bad english!
#3
didin't listen to the link... but I've found out that even with a good amp the software/good modeling sounded much better than when I recorded the amp with a crappy mic, crappy interface, and was using free software. Stuff like Guitar Rig/Amplitube can also sound much better than an inexperienced dude using great equipment but terrible mic placement.

But if you know what you are doing the real thing > modeling.
#5
Quote by jcm800fan
Hello!

I'm new to amp modling. Everyone claim knowing differences from Real amplifyer to software amplifyer.



This really isn't a reasonable test of that; you're providing a compressed digital audio file in each case. And there's no way to tell how good you are with mike placement.

That said, I'm a fan of modelers *and* own a bunch of tube amps, and I can't really tell much difference by the time it comes out of a PA. I know there are people who talk about "amp in the room" and "playing with the FEEL of the amp" and all that. But I haven't experienced those issues.

The trick with modelers is to spend time with the learning curve and learn how to tweak them. The folks who buy one and return it a week later and who them make wide-ranging proclamations about how crappy it was obviously have no clue what they were doing, but as with everything on the Internet, it hangs around forever.

My experience has mostly been with Line 6 Pods (XT, X3, HD) and with a lone Axe-FX Ultra, and I think they do a helluva job.
#6
In my experience....no it doesn't sound the same in general. However, there is one exception. The Fractal Audio AXE FX. Mind you its a hardware modeler and not a software modeler, and at 2500 USD its probably the most expensive modeler you can buy today, for most of us including myself...I'd rather say **** my neighbors and they can deal with my loud 120W all tube amp.

I have used Guitar Rig extensively, in fact I used it to record my last band's debut...and it just didn't sound like it had any life...I mean I EQ'd the shit out of those guitars and no matter what I did I couldn't make them sound anywhere like a real amp. There's just nuances and little things that modelers can't pickup very well like for example when you hit a harmonic and it sustains until it hit some feedback and just little shit like that. Also cleans sound much better with an actual amp, especially if its in a nice room where it reverberates real nice...it just doesn't get much better than that you know. That being said though, having an AXE FX would make my life so much easier in so many ways...but sometimes easier isn't always better.
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#7
Quote by RBM01991
In my experience....no it doesn't sound the same in general. However, there is one exception. The Fractal Audio AXE FX.


Two exceptions. The Kemper is just as good, priced similarly and is amazing.
#8
I've just come from using a Line 6 to now using a Mesa Single Rectifier. Directly comparing the three Rectifier models from Line 6 and the real thing, yes, I can tell the difference. However, the modelling doesn't sound inferior, to my tastes. Just different.

For other amps, I think Marshalls are the ones I've yet to hear modelled well. I think clean Fender and Vox amps of all kinds are modelled well by lots of different systems I've heard and SLOs, 6505s, Diezels and Mesas have been modelled well, too. Also some digital companies make up their own tones and they're the reason I bought my old Line 6 amp actually, the original Line 6 tones sound fantastic. In fact I'm thinking of setting up a two amp rig so I can have the Mesa's 'real' tones for when I want a normal valve clean and high gain and then the Line 6's unique tones for when I want something more interesting to experiment with.

I think people shit on modelling too much. I think people shit on solid state too much, too. Even though I'm rocking a great valve amp I still prefer some things from solid state digital modellers and when you're talking about direct comparisons I don't think the differences are enough to really care about under gig conditions and modelling, real, solid state and analoge all have an even number of pros and cons.
#9
I don't have a JCM800 to know what it sounds like, but my guess is that recording #2 is a real amp. I only used a pair of earphones to listen 'coz it may be too noisy to play on my stereo :-)
Last edited by royc at Feb 16, 2014,
#10
I can always tell the difference when I'm standing in front of the amp, plugged in. Other than that...eh....
#11
Nice to see how much talk about about ampsims vs real amp have been posted; although that was never my intention.

So only one guess?

It seems that ampsims are doing really a great job!
#12
Quote by jcm800fan
Nice to see how much talk about about ampsims vs real amp have been posted; although that was never my intention.

So only one guess?

It seems that ampsims are doing really a great job!


Not really, as it still depends on the recording quality. I thought there was no real amp on my first pass. It would have been better if my initial guess was that all were real amps.
Last edited by royc at Feb 17, 2014,
#13
Quote by jcm800fan
Nice to see how much talk about about ampsims vs real amp have been posted; although that was never my intention.

So only one guess?

It seems that ampsims are doing really a great job!

Maybe because it's a bit of a meaningless test?

There are so many variables when setting up a real amp that'll all make a difference in tone that making an A/B comparison is inappropriate. You can't just throw a microphone in front of the cabinet and expect a 100% accurate representation of the sound of the amp.
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at Feb 17, 2014,
#14
There are so many variables when setting up a real amp that'll all make a difference in tone that making an A/B comparison is inappropriate. You can't just throw a microphone in front of the cabinet and expect a 100% accurate representation of the sound of the amp.


Aah, I get it! There are endless possiblities to make an amp recording sound bad that it's inappropriate to ask the community if they think they're listening to a real amp or an amp sim. Okay!


Not really, as it still depends on the recording quality. I thought there was no real amp on my first pass. It would have been better if my initial guess was that all were real amps.


Agreed! Nice to have someone who has tonal quality standars that high, that he couldn't make out the real amp in the first place. So I'm guessing I need to raise my recording standards.


Anyway, the solution is as follows:

1. TH2

2. Guitar Rig 5

3. Amplitube 3

4. Vandal

5. Real Marshal JCM 800 with 1960 with Celestion T-75 speakers, recorded with a SM57 on grille at cone edge and a U87 a few inches away at the speaker's edge. Used a pair of stereo mics to record the room.

6. JamVox

I thought I did a pretty god job at recording that amp. Unfortunately it seems only one user was able to make out the real deal. As far as the others go, I could have used a cheap ampsim to achieve a good sound.

But thanks for your input! I'll have to go back to the drawing board then to make my real amp sound real.

Just like with the simpsons:

Since cows don't look like cows on camera, one has to use a painted horse. Since horses don't look real on camera you have to tape a bunch of cats together!




Thanks!
Last edited by jcm800fan at Feb 17, 2014,
#15
Quote by jcm800fan
Aah, I get it! There are endless possiblities to make an amp recording sound bad that it's inappropriate to ask the community if they think they're listening to a real amp or an amp sim. Okay!



As if you can't make an amp sim sound like pure shit either. All you're really testing here is how good you are at micing up a cabinet and how good you are at post-processing an amp sim on nothing more than a compressed audio file.

You're adorable. Please don't stop.

And for the record, I don't even have anything against amp sims. I really like Overloud TH2 when it is set up well.
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at Feb 17, 2014,
#16
Quote by jcm800fan


Anyway, the solution is as follows:

1. TH2

2. Guitar Rig 5

3. Amplitube 3

4. Vandal

6. Real Marshal JCM 800 with 1960 with Celestion T-75 speakers, recorded with a SM57 on grille at cone edge and a U87 a few inches away at the speaker's edge. Used a pair of stereo mics to record the room.

7. Jamvox


I thought I did a pretty god job at recording that amp. Unfortunately it seems only one user was able to make out the real deal. As far as the others go, I could have used a cheap ampsim to achieve a good sound.



Well I stated 5/6 so I guess I'm the person who got it right as you got your numbers messed up here, what do I win? Credit where credit is due son. Also next time it's probably best to record modelling simulations without background noise. The fifth example was the only example without a hum in the background. But even without the noise it was still quite evident that 5/6 was the real amp as it's the only one which sounded throaty where as the others sounded compressed/electronic.
#17
All you're really testing here is how good you are at micing up a cabinet and how good you are at post-processing an amp sim on nothing more than a compressed audio file.

You're adorable. Please don't stop.


Good going, Sherlock! You got me and my evil secret agenda!

The fifth example was the only example without a hum in the background. But even without the noise it was still quite evident that 5/6 was the real amp as it's the only one which sounded throaty where as the others sounded compressed/electronic.


That was my thought too. And I thought that the real amp is way more present. It seems to be much clearer, yet the palm mutes sound larger and fuller than with the amp sims.

On the real recording however the background noise was gated. I shoud have added noise gates with the amp sims too. I agree with that!

So what do you win? My deep recognition!
#18
Don't get me wrong, I like these kinds of test, if only to see if guitarists can really hear the difference between analog and digital. I really have no idea on how the JCM800 sounds like and I only relied on the noise of #2 to assume it is a real amp. I didn't expect you to use a noise gate on the real amp and none on the emulations :-)

I just hope that you can use a 320kbps bit rate next time to minimize the loss.
#19
I use emulation to record ballpark sounds for quick and dirty demos, then I spend some time reamping the signal through the real thing, I have several good amps to choose from - Marshall, Orange, Laney, etc. that always get me good results. Still even the older stuff I did with a crappy 10 watt Marshall Valvestate amp miked sounds better than a lot of the modeler stuff that I hear.

I can't say that I've been able to get an emulated sound to beat the mic/amped sound. If you have a really bad amp, probably yes, but if you're halfway competent you should be able to do better with a sm57 and a $100 interface than going direct with emulation. My 2c.
Last edited by diabolical at Feb 17, 2014,