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#1

Hey all, i'm rather new here so please forgive (or politely correct me) if I break a rule unintentionally (there seems to be so many rules and scattered into various places that admittedly I struggled to make complete sense of all the rules and to where exactly they might pertain to)...sorry!

having said that... here is something that seems to baffle me and I was hoping someone might resolve (pardon the pun) this issue and shed some light on the matter for me.


NB: guys please think about your answers first, and don't just reply with the typical "due to the accidental... blah blah ...we've now modualted to a new home key etc..." because as is already shown with Ex.2 we still managed to land home to resolve nicely on C Major despite the added A#(Bb) note.


Ex.1 here we see that I-IV-V... typically resolves to I

Ex.2 even with the inclusion of a borrowed chord (or added accidental) in the 4th measure, the C major as a home chord remains unaffected and resolves nicely.

Ex.3 so why then, (by simply replacing the 2nd F chord with a C chord, in the 8th measure), does this dramatically change the whole tonallity, rendering the the last C chord as unresolved and needing the final F chord to complete the phrase and changing the entire tonal landscape (ie: F now the new Home Key).


again: guys please think about your answers first, and don't just reply with the typical "due to the accidental... blah blah ...we've now modualted to a new home key etc..." because as is already shown with Ex.2 we still managed to land home to resolve nicely on C Major despite the added A#(Bb) note.


Here are the 3 examples:

.....Ex.1 Resolves nicely to C Major:
.....C.........F.........G.........C......
e ||-0-0-0-0-|-1-1-1-1-|-3-3-3-3-|-0----||
B ||-1-1-1-1-|-1-1-1-1-|-3-3-3-3-|-1----||
G ||-0-0-0-0-|-2-2-2-2-|-4-4-4-4-|-0----||
D ||-2-2-2-2-|-3-3-3-3-|-5-5-5-5-|-2----||
A ||-3-3-3-3-|---------|---------|-3----||
E ||---------|---------|---------|------||


.....Ex.2 Again, still resovles to C Major:
.....C.........F.........G.........(Bb)...F......C......
e ||-0-0-0-0-|-1-1-1-1-|-3-3-3-3-|--1--1--1--1-|-0----||
B ||-1-1-1-1-|-1-1-1-1-|-3-3-3-3-|--3--3--1--1-|-1----||
G ||-0-0-0-0-|-2-2-2-2-|-4-4-4-4-|--3--3--2--2-|-0----||
D ||-2-2-2-2-|-3-3-3-3-|-5-5-5-5-|--3--3--3--3-|-2----||
A ||-3-3-3-3-|---------|---------|--1--1--3--3-|-3----||
E ||---------|---------|---------|-------------|------||


.....Ex.3 Huh???
.....C.........F.........G.........Am7.......
e ||-0-0-0-0-|-1-1-1-1-|-3-3-3-3-|-0-0-0-0-|-
B ||-1-1-1-1-|-1-1-1-1-|-3-3-3-3-|-1-1-1-1-|-
G ||-0-0-0-0-|-2-2-2-2-|-4-4-4-4-|-0-0-0-0-|-
D ||-2-2-2-2-|-3-3-3-3-|-5-5-5-5-|-2-2-2-2-|-
A ||-3-3-3-3-|---------|---------|-0-0-0-0-|-
E ||---------|---------|---------|---------|-

....(C./.Am7)..F.........G.........Bb..F.C...F......
e -|---------|-1-1-1-1-|-3-3-3-3-|-6-6-5-3-|-1----||
B -|---------|-1-1-1-1-|-3-3-3-3-|-6-6-6-5-|-1----||
G -|---------|-2-2-2-2-|-4-4-4-4-|-7-7-5-5-|-2----||
D -|---------|-3-3-3-3-|-5-5-5-5-|-8-8-7-5-|-3----||
A -|---------|---------|---------|-----8---|------||
E -|---------|---------|---------|---------|------||
(I understand that the Am7 plays no part to the modulation)
(and was simply inculded here just purely for colour only.)

Last edited by tonibet72 at Feb 20, 2014,
#2
I-IV-V always resolves to I. if it doesn't, it isn't a I-IV-V.

i really don't know what your question is. i don't hear or see anything that "dramatically changes the whole tonality". not to mention your chord symbols aren't quite matching up with the provided tablature.

if you have a question you want answered, please phrase it clearly and concisely and we'd be happy to give you an answer.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#3
I'm not 100% sure about what you're asking (actually only about 10% sure here) but I think you're thinking about this too hard.

When you add more chords, it's no longer a I-IV-V progression. Simple as that. Even if I add one single other chord, it changes. Example: C F G is a I-IV-V. If I add an Am at the end (C F G Am) it becomes I-IV-V-VI, so there's that.
Last edited by mjones1992 at Feb 20, 2014,
#4
because Bb is the IV chord of F, and C is the V chord of F, when you use F Bb C you have a I IV V in F major C pulls to F so when you play Bb C you have now reestablished the key as F its an easy way to change keys because C and F are in both keys allowing you to use the chord borrowed from F major to change to F major, but if you go from the Bb to an F then back to C you have the simple gone down a fourth and down a fourth both resolve, I hope that wasn't too confusing
#5
Looking at the tab the chords you have written above are wrong.

Also I agree that the final example resolves to F. However, a little magic shows that in fact the final example is simply a verification that a I IV V does indeed resolve to the tonic.

So first off...the tab shows the following chords in each example...

Ex 1
|C - - - |F - - - |G - - - |C - - - |

Ex 2
|C - - - |F - - - |G - - -| Bb- - - |
|C|

Ex 3
|C - - - |F - - - |G - - - |Am7 - - - |
|- - - - |F - - - |G - - - |Bb - Dm7/A C/G |
|F - - - |

In the second example the Bb is a bVII borrowed from the parallel minor.

In the third example the Bb is part of a modulation to F. How???

Well there's two things going on here that assist the resolution. The ever so slightly disguised I IV V in F and the descending bass line.

First the I IV V...

In relation to the original key (C) the Bb is a bVII the Dm7 is a ii7 and the C is the tonic. However as you noted this is resolving to F. So we must also consider these chords in relation to F. The Bb is a IV chord the Dm7 is a vi7 chord and the C is a V chord.

Typically a vi chord will serve a tonic function. However common tone chord substitution says that we can substitute one chord for another chord that shares a number of the same notes. The Dm has D F A. Dm7 has D F A C. It contains all the same notes as the F chord and you have actually written it as F. This is well and good but context is everything.

Here I feel the chord is actually a substitution for the Bb and serving a sub dominant function. The reason I say this is because it is that the subdominant function sets up the dominant. In F the Bb sets up the C for a resolution to F. In this example the Dm7 is an elaboration of that sub dominant function assisting in the move from the Bb to the C chord which then resolves as a simple V-I to F.

Instead of the Dm7 we could theoretically play a Bb/A chord (Bb D F A) instead and still achieve the similar function. The Dm7 just works better as we lose the Bb altogether and introduce the C which remains as we move to the next chord.

The C is a V in the key of F so if you accept the Dm7 as an elaboration of the sub dominant function then in effect you have a variation on I IV V in F.

You don't even have to buy all that to see how it resolves though. You could view the Dm7 as serving an I function (in F) if you like. Either way what really brings this modulation together quite nicely is the use of inversions to create a nice bass line descending to the F.

Inverting the Dm7 and the C chords we get a IV vi V I ( in F) with a bass line that is descending stepwise to the tonic F chord from the IV (Bb) via an inverted V (C) preceding the F. The bass line is Bb A G F.

So even if you think interpreting the Dm7 as a IV is a stretch and want to call it as serving a tonic function, it would be a variation on IV I V I, which is still a very strong way to tonicize the F and coupled with the descending bass line...well there is simply no doubt about the new tonic.

What do you think??
Si
#6
Quote by mjones1992
I'm not 100% sure about what you're asking (actually only about 10% sure here) but I think you're thinking about this too hard.

When you add more chords, it's no longer a I-IV-V progression. Simple as that. Even if I add one single other chord, it changes. Example: C F G is a I-IV-V. If I add an Am at the end (C F G Am) it becomes I-IV-V-VI, so there's that.

While you are correct I feel that it is important to note that even those secondary chords will typically still serve a I IV or V function. In your example the Am is serving the harmonic function of a tonic chord so it can be analysed as a variation of I IV V I with the I substituted for the vi chord. Hope that makes sense.
Si
#7
Quote by AeolianWolf
I-IV-V always resolves to I. if it doesn't, it isn't a I-IV-V.

i really don't know what your question is. i don't hear or see anything that "dramatically changes the whole tonality". not to mention your chord symbols aren't quite matching up with the provided tablature.

if you have a question you want answered, please phrase it clearly and concisely and we'd be happy to give you an answer.


AeolianWolf: you wouldn't happen to be Gen-Y by any chance would ya?
#8
Quote by mjones1992
I'm not 100% sure about what you're asking (actually only about 10% sure here) but I think you're thinking about this too hard.

When you add more chords, it's no longer a I-IV-V progression. Simple as that. Even if I add one single other chord, it changes. Example: C F G is a I-IV-V. If I add an Am at the end (C F G Am) it becomes I-IV-V-VI, so there's that.



and you too MJones1992: you just gotta be Gen-Y by your name tag!!
#9
If I'm understanding your question....

When you took Bb and then followed with F, you effected a IV I in F, and if youfollowed that a C, you've summoned the V chord of F; you effectively changed the key, and because of the VI of Bb to F, followed by C, you did IV I V in F.

Best,

Sean
#10
Quote by tonibet72
and you too MJones1992: you just gotta be Gen-Y by your name tag!!

What? No comment on or thoughts on my analysis??
Wasn't that the point of this thread (as opposed to trying to classify various posters by generation)?

Si
#11
lol I was so confused. I googled Gen-Y and was still confused for a second

If it means anything to you, I enjoyed reading your post 20T
#12
Quote by 20Tigers
What? No comment on or thoughts on my analysis??
Wasn't that the point of this thread (as opposed to trying to classify various posters by generation)?




Oki doke, since you asked:

just in case you haven't noticed, I have edited my initial post to make things clearer.
No one here seems to have yet answered my issue accurately enuff.

All things considered:

The whole crux of what I was trying to ask was:

1. w-h-y. (given the prescence of the Bb note) does Ex.2 resolve to C so well (as if unaffected by the Bb, which indicates a key change to F Major)

2. and why in Ex.3, does the last C chord change the key so strongly (from C Major to F Major)

3. the 2 Ex's are virtually the same except for one chord change that lasts only for one beat, yet resolve on 2 entirely different final chords (and potential key signatures - First C major Ex.2 - then F Major Ex.3).

Now before dissecting every facet of my analogy, you have to do your best to stick to the points (maybe label them for clarity) because as far as I know Dm7 albeit relative was never a chord in my querry.

Hint: it's the Bb and the 2 resolves are what's knockin my head about, and i'm sorry if ive misunderstood your first reply but it seemed to digress and trail off for my incomplete level of theory prowess (or should I say lack of it, but hey is'nt that why i'm here in the first place).

p-l-e-a-s-e 20Tigers if you really are a theory genius then surely you will be able to answer in a clear, concise manner, because I would love to have that "Gee thanks a bunch mate!" moment with ya!

good luck?
#13
Quote by The4thHorsemen
lol I was so confused. I googled Gen-Y and was still confused for a second

If it means anything to you, I enjoyed reading your post 20T



You lot all related or something?

how about you have crack at trying to answer my question then...
#14
Quote by 20Tigers
What? No comment on or thoughts on my analysis??
Wasn't that the point of this thread (as opposed to trying to classify various posters by generation)?



Okay here is my reply:
I have written my part in brackets along side your replies, so you can get a feel for my interpretation (or mis-interpretation) of what was being read.

End result:
I didn't have the WOW I TOTALLY GET IT moment I was hoping for.

Read On...

Looking at the tab the chords you have written above are wrong.
(yeah that was true - i've corrected them now - and the layout also)

Also I agree that the final example resolves to F.
(Good because it most certainly does - it just "sounds" like it does)

However, a little magic shows that in fact the final example is simply a verification that a I IV V does indeed resolve to the tonic.
(huh? in english perhaps - and there is no I-IV-V finish - in either key)

So first off...the tab shows the following chords in each example...

Ex 1
|C - - - |F - - - |G - - - |C - - - | (yep)

Ex 2
|C - - - |F - - - |G - - -| Bb- - - | (yep again)
|C|

Ex 3
|C - - - |F - - - |G - - - |Am7 - - - |
|- - - - |F - - - |G - - - |Bb - Dm7/A C/G |
|F - - - |
(the Dm7 in my score is actually an F (C shape @ the 8th fret))
(I just didn't add the bass note)

In the second example the Bb is a bVII borrowed from the parallel minor.
(what of F major? - I thort the tune never left CMajor - as a home key)

In the third example the Bb is part of a modulation to F. How???
(duh by the arrival of the Bb note)

(this is where I k-i-n-d-a lost interest and thort cripes! this post is definately goona get confusing)
(yet I soldiered on...)

Well there's two things going on here that assist the resolution. (oh - kay)
The ever so slightly disguised I IV V in F and the descending bass line.
(now which Example is he refering too. ugh!!!)

First the I IV V... (listening...)

In relation to the original key (C) the Bb is a bVII the Dm7 is a ii7 and the C is the tonic.
(hmm original key.. C! - yay got that!...Bb is a bVII - grr there's no Bb in the original key)
(are we now in F? ughh) - Dm7 is ii7 (true) and C is the tonic (oh joy Ren!!)

However as you noted this is resolving to F. (true dat)
So we must also consider these chords in relation to F. (fair enuff, listening again...)
The Bb is a IV chord (good)
the Dm7 is a vi7 chord (mmhmm)
and the C is a V chord. (okay movin on...)

Typically a vi chord will serve a tonic function. (relative minor/major stuff)
However common tone chord substitution says that we can substitute one chord for another chord that shares a number of the same notes.
(yep)
The Dm has D F A. (ok) Dm7 has D F A C.(yep)
It contains all the same notes as the F chord and you have actually written it as F. (I was meant to)
This is well and good but context is everything. (listening...)

Here I feel the chord is actually a substitution for the Bb and serving a sub dominant function.
(Dmin and Bb aren't related here - as in min/maj relativity - ie: Dm/FMaj all good... but Bb?? - confused again)

The reason I say this is because it is that the subdominant function sets up the dominant.
In F the Bb sets up the C for a resolution to F. (that's obvious but in Ex.2 we still resolve to C)
(which was one of my points i'm needing help with)
(seems like your just re phrasing my question and trying to pawn it of as an answer)
(but i'll continue listening)

In this example the Dm7 is an elaboration of that sub dominant function
(I get that already Dm/FMaj - min/maj realtion thingy again - still not really saying much)
assisting in the move from the Bb to the C chord
(w-h-a-a-a-t??? - ya lost me again - in what way?)
which then resolves as a simple V-I to F.
(oh does it now - still not saying anything)

Instead of the Dm7 we could theoretically play a Bb/A chord (Bb D F A) instead and still achieve the similar function.
(sounds very hoity toity but...WHAT YA TALKIN ABOUT WILLIS? - Bb over A - you wanna break that down a little more)

The Dm7 just works better as we lose the Bb altogether and introduce the C which remains as we move to the next chord.
(where the hell are we now? - lost again)

The C is a V in the key of F (good)
so if you accept the Dm7 as an elaboration of the sub dominant function (and...)
then in effect you have a variation on I IV V in F.
(not that, that expains w-h-y Ex.3 starts out happily in C and continues to do so r-i-g-h-t u-p u-n-t-i-l t-h-e f-i-n-a-l C Chord c-h-a-n-g-e-s e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g)

You don't even have to buy all that (obviously I didn't)
to see how it resolves though. (oh really?)

You could view the Dm7 as serving an I function (in F) if you like.
(still not sayin much - just repeating the min/maj relationship again)
(ya know what - i'm sure there's more to it - something feels off here)

Either way what really brings this modulation together (oh now we admit there's a modulation!)
quite nicely is the use of inversions to create a nice bass line descending to the F.
(finally we agree on something - the bass line only - not the inversions side a things)
(the inversions attempt was cool but s-t-i-l-l doesn't really make me go WOW now I see!)

Inverting the Dm7 and the C chords we get a IV vi V I ( in F) with a bass line that is descending stepwise to the tonic F chord from the IV (Bb) via an inverted V (C) preceding the F. The bass line is Bb A G F.
(that was - to me - the most obvious sounding part which is why my brain went "hey how's this make sense")

So even if you think interpreting the Dm7 as a IV is a stretch (no stretch - I get that)
and want to call it as serving a tonic function, (of what? the new key of F?)
(bearing in mind that it's on;y the 2nd to last chord of C that changes our key center - to the ears - in FULL context)

it would be a variation on IV I V I, which is still a very strong way to tonicize the F and coupled with the descending bass line...

well there is simply no doubt about the new tonic.

What do you think??
(anycance you could refine that - but have a look at my last reply to you first)
#15
Is there something wrong with being friendly to people? I've been on and off this site since 2007 and 20Tigers has been on since 2008. He posts a lot more than me and is one of the regulars I've learned a lot from, there are quite a few on here that are like that and there's definitely a community kind of feel. That's one of the reasons I like these forums so much.

And I thought that 20Tigers' post perfectly covered it, except you're supposed to name / chords by the bass note, so it should be Dm7/F instead of Dm7/A. He kinda went off talking about how that chord could be a substitution for the Bb, which would make it serve as like just a continued variation of the Bb, making the last two bars a IV V I.

Then at the end he said you don't even have to look at it as a substitution, even if you just call the x87565 chord F it's still IV I V I in the key of F.


Wait, after typing that I think I just saw what your problem is. You're wondering why in ex.2 G Bb F C is still basically IV V I in C, while ex.3 is the same chords with an F on the end, but they are in a different key.

Basically, the emphasis on chords helps determines the key, which is why it's so important to actually listen to something when determining the key. The way you've got it tabbed makes it look like you're setting up a 4 bar rotation, it leads the ear to expect that after 4 bars you're going to come back home and do it again, but on the 8th bar of ex.3 you rush the chords so that you get to the C chord before the point in time the ear is expecting the tonic (because of what's already been going on), so by rushing through those chords, you're changing their importance.


Edit: I was still typing all this when you submitted the post above, but I still think I got it here.

I (and everyone else apparently) kinda misunderstood the question at first.


double edit: wait, i wasn't typing this an hour ago... I must've had this thread up in a another tab for a while and didn't refresh it. whatever, this is useless information.
Last edited by The4thHorsemen at Feb 20, 2014,
#16
QUOTE=The4thHorsemen]

Wait, after typing that I think I just saw what your problem is. You're wondering why in ex.2 G Bb F C is still basically IV V I in C, while ex.3 is the same chords with an F on the end, but they are in a different key.

Basically, the emphasis on chords helps determines the key, which is why it's so important to actually listen to something when determining the key. The way you've got it tabbed makes it look like you're setting up a 4 bar rotation, it leads the ear to expect that after 4 bars you're going to come back home and do it again, but on the 8th bar of ex.3 you rush the chords so that you get to the C chord before the point in time the ear is expecting the tonic (because of what's already been going on), so by rushing through those chords, you're changing their importance.


@The4thHorseman: Thank you... that is why in my original post (at the top) I literally asked twice for people to please think about their answers before replying... finally someone is with me here, albeit 20Tigers was_ doing a great job, but I just found it hard to follow (altho I could understand each sentence on it's own merit), but then he kinda demanded I reply to his reply intead of flirting with the younger generation (that's a joke btw) so I thort I would literally give him an open and honest account of my private thort process so he may be able to "clear things up for me", I was literally sharing my thort process aloud in hope to be better understood (come on we all do it - it's called chatter) no direct offense was meant by it (in a round about fashion you yourself we're laughing at me at my Gen-Y remarks), and i'm not gonna take it soley to heart just because you thort I was being a little cavalier.

I guess you and 20Tigers have sorta shed some light on it tho (I just didn't quite catch the Dm7 things so strong - k-i-n-d-a thort it was irrelevent... kinda... BUT yeah ya rang a few bells for me when you mentioned the 4 bar loop repeater part) and I guess t'was again the real crux of my querry as just when your expecting to land in JFK International Airport, you find yourself touching down in LaGuardia NY. ???
which is why I called my post "when I-IV-V doesn't always resolve to I"

I actually read a post somewhere on cadences and something to do with IV-V-I resolutions and thort I wonder if it's possible to not land on home key and if so, it would be cool to write something where I could do it a whole bunch and really give the listener something to think about, and that's when I actually stumbled across my examples and thort I would definately like to know how all this comes together so I could use it someday.

Please read my last "open and honest" reply to 20Tigers to get a more candid perspective in what I was loking for (hoping you both can decipher "frustration" from down right "just lookin for trouble"), to see if there's anything I/you may have over looked.

I myself some what regularly contribute tabs to this site also, so i'm definately not set to make enemies or get banned etc... surely that's evident.

FYI: I had already assumed that most people here were closely aquainted... guess that's a give-in. Remember 20Tigers demanded my attention first (not that there's anything wrong with that but just saying, come all's fair is it not?)

Alright i'm exhausted now, come on, cut uz some slack? lols

P.SS what does it take to get my Marbles Tab by John McLaughlin "approved" (please help vote it through)

Hopefully we're all on better ground now? (peace)
Last edited by tonibet72 at Feb 20, 2014,
#17
^Nah there is no D. That was my bad. It's an F chord. (F/A) but now has the F in there as the bass so just a straight F now.

I've been trying to find the right way to explain this as I have a few ideas after looking at the revised progressions but it's really late and I have work tomorrow morning.

I have to do this really quickly but

In ex 3 the C does not conclude the phrase it is on the weak beat of the penultimate bar. The F is on a strong beat (beat one) of the final bar and concludes the phrase.
In Ex 2 the C chord concludes the phrase on a strong beat of the final bar and with Bb F C I think a reference to Sean's post above is in line. (Chain of fourths progression there to set up the cadence). However if Ex 2 had an F on beat three of the final bar (and we stopped there) the F would sound resolved.

If we are setting up a cadence and we use a chain of fourths basically where you stop is the tonic (or a chain of fifths). If we follow it with a movement down a perfect fifth then we end up with a different cadence.

C G D D for example will sound at rest on the D. If we follow the D with a G instead of a second D (C G D G) then the G sounds at rest. If we continue the chain of fourths and succeed the D with an A to get C G D A then the A sounds at rest. If we follow the A with an E then Hey Joe we have a chain of fourths progression resolving on E.

Such is the case with chain progressions - where you conclude your phrase is where you will find your tonic. Also a V-I to conclude a phrase works very well. Thus going down a chain of fourths to C (Bb F C) then back to F works well.

===
Also in response to the previous post...

You can't accept the bassline without the inversions. The inversions are what make the bassline. C in second inversion is a C major with the G in the bass i.e. C/G. An inversion is when a chord tone other than the root is the bass note.

Bb/A is perfectly fine. What's wrong with it? It's a BbMaj7 in third inversion. I would be surprised if you have never come across that before but perhaps a whole step up C/B perhaps as a C major chord walks down to an Am (C C/B Am). The point I was getting at there is that going from the Bb heading to the F we could achieve the same bass line with
Bb - Bb/A - C/G - F

I recognize that the posts here haven't been well polished but hey man I'm thinking about it and offering some ideas.
I never claimed to be a theory genius I'm just looking, thinking, and telling you what I'm looking at and thinking about.

I'll come back tomorrow and if this isn't making sense I'll go at it with a fresh set of eyes. It's 2am and I have work tomorrow.

[Edit]
Ah no - no need. The4thHorseman is on it.
Don't worry sometimes my posts actually do make sense. Nevermind me. I'm going to bed.

p.s. didn't bother me how you responded to my post, I just figured that was your style. (what did bother me was paying attention to people that you didn't feel were contributing)
Si
#18
I think the reason 20Tigers "demanded your attention" was because he spent the time to really break it down in his post, and then you made the two Gen-Y remarks, so it seemed like you were ignoring him. Which is also why I was confused by it, but whatever.
#19
Quote by 20Tigers
^Nah there is no D. That was my bad. It's an F chord. (F/A) but now has the F in there as the bass so just a straight F now.

I've been trying to find the right way to explain this as I have a few ideas after looking at the revised progressions but it's really late and I have work tomorrow morning.

I have to do this really quickly but

In ex 3 the C does not conclude the phrase it is on the weak beat of the penultimate bar. The F is on a strong beat (beat one) of the final bar and concludes the phrase.
In Ex 2 the C chord concludes the phrase on a strong beat of the final bar and with Bb F C I think a reference to Sean's post above is in line. (Chain of fourths progression there to set up the cadence). However if Ex 2 had an F on beat three of the final bar (and we stopped there) the F would sound resolved.

If we are setting up a cadence and we use a chain of fourths basically where you stop is the tonic (or a chain of fifths). If we follow it with a movement down a perfect fifth then we end up with a different cadence.

C G D D for example will sound at rest on the D. If we follow the D with a G instead of a second D (C G D G) then the G sounds at rest. If we continue the chain of fourths and succeed the D with an A to get C G D A then the A sounds at rest. If we follow the A with an E then Hey Joe we have a chain of fourths progression resolving on E.

Such is the case with chain progressions - where you conclude your phrase is where you will find your tonic. Also a V-I to conclude a phrase works very well. Thus going down a chain of fourths to C (Bb F C) then back to F works well.

===
Also in response to the previous post...

You can't accept the bassline without the inversions. The inversions are what make the bassline. C in second inversion is a C major with the G in the bass i.e. C/G. An inversion is when a chord tone other than the root is the bass note.

Bb/A is perfectly fine. What's wrong with it? It's a BbMaj7 in third inversion. I would be surprised if you have never come across that before but perhaps a whole step up C/B perhaps as a C major chord walks down to an Am (C C/B Am). The point I was getting at there is that going from the Bb heading to the F we could achieve the same bass line with
Bb - Bb/A - C/G - F

I recognize that the posts here haven't been well polished but hey man I'm thinking about it and offering some ideas.
I never claimed to be a theory genius I'm just looking, thinking, and telling you what I'm looking at and thinking about.

I'll come back tomorrow and if this isn't making sense I'll go at it with a fresh set of eyes. It's 2am and I have work tomorrow.

[Edit]
Ah no - no need. The4thHorseman is on it.
Don't worry sometimes my posts actually do make sense. Nevermind me.



Yeah Top Notch 20Tigers!!! between you and The4thHorseman I am slowly coming to grips with it all my self, (the 4th's walk down really helped too) but as for inversions... yeah that was always a weak spot in my theory so rules governing those sorts of things were never and I mean NEVER going to leap out at me lolz, you chaps are fascinating to converse with though, might have to return more often...

PS: thanks also to Sean0913 altho I did kinda know that I just wanted... flip not really sure, think i'm off to rediscover inversions... grrr oh god! i'm gonna be bored! lols
#20
Quote by The4thHorsemen
I think the reason 20Tigers "demanded your attention" was because he spent the time to really break it down in his post, and then you made the two Gen-Y remarks, so it seemed like you were ignoring him. Which is also why I was confused by it, but whatever.



yeah those 20 second remarks are just so much easier to send out (I was then currently working on my reply - so much to take in) but yeah true what ev's!!

Please dude Help vote my Marbles Tab by John McLaughlin thro to approval??
I've emailed them days ago and no reply, some other poor bugger's got 7 votes and still not thru yet... what give's, staff on holiday?
#21
lol, I just noticed that earlier I posted without refreshing the page again and completely missed 20Tigers' post.

Anyways, tab approval can take a while sometimes, how long has it been since you submitted it? It's been a long time since I submitted any tabs, so I don't really know. Just wait it out.
#22
Quote by tonibet72
and you too MJones1992: you just gotta be Gen-Y by your name tag!!


What does my generation have to do with anything? BTW, 20Tigers, great write-up. I learned some stuffs :-)
#23
Quote by mjones1992
What does my generation have to do with anything? BTW, 20Tigers, great write-up. I learned some stuffs :-)



It was just a typical Gen-Y response that's all (...turns out I guessed ya's both right anyhow - that's gotta be tellin ya something!), I digress...

just so ya know: you opened your post by saying ya don't understand, if only as much as 10%, then began to deliver a theory regardless... a little cocky don't ya think?
and when you stated that a I-IV-V prog involves no other chords and topped it off with "simple as that" I was like okay I guess i'll disregard anything joe pass said about embelishment and substitution etc...

altho I appreciate yr input, I was actually raising what I thort was an interesting issue to which with your opening line in your reply seemed to just dismiss as drivel (turns out other people were a lot more engaging and actually remarked that they too, had mis-understood at first) - I actually DID state TWICE in my original post that people please consider their answers before they replied... it just felt like I just didn't get that sort of consideration from your "knee jerk reaction" response that's all.

In actual fact usually it's my girl friend who's constantly bickering about "good ol'e Gen-Y thinking they know everything all the time" only for me to remind her that she's of that generation herself (i'm an X myself) her argument is she's in sales so she meet's everyone so.... "what would I know?" lol :-)

A generalisation? - Sure!
did yr comments kinda fall into that bracket? ..mm.mmm..k-i-n-d-a?
ANYWHO!...
please dude please don't just go shooting back now and be all offended like, you asked and I took the time and repect to honestly respond, and I am_ sure that I may very well require your feedback on future posts for any issues I may have.

and I myself will pormise to keep the extemporaneous floccinaucinihilipilification to a minimum...
Last edited by tonibet72 at Feb 20, 2014,
#24
Quote by tonibet72
AeolianWolf: you wouldn't happen to be Gen-Y by any chance would ya?


that's irrelevant. i know the material (and then some) that you're asking about.

or do the countless hours, days, months, and (dare i say it) years that i've put into studying my field mean nothing because of the year i was born?
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#25
Quote by AeolianWolf
that's irrelevant. i know the material (and then some) that you're asking about.

or do the countless hours, days, months, and (dare i say it) years that i've put into studying my field mean nothing because of the year i was born?



FYI: your post was p-r-e-t-t-y close to mjones1992 reply and your good buddy 20Tigers even replied to mj that albeit a I-IV-I is by any other name...
why don't you go reply to his_ post with your reponse.

given all things fair: despite a few personality differences, 20Tigers remains helpful and tries to articulate his reponses in a manner that the student (in this case, me) can understand, get off your high horse buddy and start playing the game mate, as the saying goes "a student is only as good as his teacher" and your not really helping at this stage, why don't you re-read my original post and see if you can help a little more then, you claim to know your stuff so of course I would appreciate any enlightening feedback you have to contribute, both 20Tigers and The4thHorseman both have had the humilty to continue to offer constructive feedback despite a rocky start and admitted he overlooked a few things.
It's about getting the BIG picture here, but according to only you, you seem to not see or hear "anything" that changes the overall tonalilty in my original post, seems your the only one... you sure you know your stuff? (just asking).
#26
Quote by tonibet72
FYI: your post was p-r-e-t-t-y close to mjones1992 reply and your good buddy 20Tigers even replied to mj that albeit a I-IV-I is by any other name...
why don't you go reply to his_ post with your reponse.

given all things fair: despite a few personality differences, 20Tigers remains helpful and tries to articulate his reponses in a manner that the student (in this case, me) can understand, get off your high horse buddy and start playing the game mate, as the saying goes "a student is only as good as his teacher" and your not really helping at this stage, why don't you re-read my original post and see if you can help a little more then, you claim to know your stuff so of course I would appreciate any enlightening feedback you have to contribute, both 20Tigers and The4thHorseman both have had the humilty to continue to offer constructive feedback despite a rocky start and admitted he overlooked a few things.
It's about getting the BIG picture here, but according to only you, you seem to not see or hear "anything" that changes the overall tonalilty in my original post, seems your the only one... you sure you know your stuff? (just asking).


to a degree you don't even know exists, if a bVII trips you up.

ask a clear question, get a clear answer. i don't have the time to sit through your stupidity and inefficiency -- frankly i barely even read through this.

if you want my input, ask me a CLEAR question.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#27
Quote by AeolianWolf
to a degree you don't even know exists, if a bVII trips you up.

ask a clear question, get a clear answer. i don't have the time to sit through your stupidity and inefficiency -- frankly i barely even read through this.

if you want my input, ask me a CLEAR question.



oh so good, didn't really want your help anyway, not that you had anything in the first place, some offer their advice here and some just think they do... that'd be you!!!
j-u-s-t t-o s-p-e-l-l i-t o-u-t f-o-r y-o-u!!
#28
Hello,

I lurk on the the musician board a lot, specifically because of posters such as AeolianWolf.

Tonibet, you seem like a very lame person to be around. I just wanted to share this with you. The Gen-Y remark is entirely irrelevant and honestly makes you appear more banal than those whom actually represent the generation in whatever narrow perception you may have of it.

Thank you.
#29
Quote by wafflesyrup
Hello,

I lurk on the the musician board a lot, specifically because of posters such as AeolianWolf.

Tonibet, you seem like a very lame person to be around. I just wanted to share this with you. The Gen-Y remark is entirely irrelevant and honestly makes you appear more banal than those whom actually represent the generation in whatever narrow perception you may have of it.

Thank you.



okay so after reading my original post and his reply... do you think that I should be like"oh wow that really helps" and i'm asking you seriously, other people "got" what I was asking... why didn't he then???
can you please answer that as you seem to be wanting to support him here... fairs fair!

P.S love the way you thank me at the end of your msg btw (lol)
umm that's supposed to be cheeky funny (not nasty) :-)
Last edited by tonibet72 at Feb 20, 2014,
#30
Ugh... after reading his and mjones' responses it probably would have been a good idea to try to rephrase your question. Instead you made a random remark about generation. What the hell does that have to do with anything? I just saw the post where you halfway explained it and that just sounded like trying to demean a person based on age.

Your original post was really hard to follow, which is why everybody misunderstood it, and I only happened to catch the intent while I was trying to simplify 20Tigers's first post for you because I thought he had already answered it and you just didn't understand it.
#31
I still don't understand TS's question. He's asked why the C major chord shifts roles from tonic function to dominant function modulating the key to F, and to give an answer that doesn't explain the functional harmony and chords being used? I don't get how you would answer that question given the perimeters he's set up.
#32
Quote by Bad Kharmel
because Bb is the IV chord of F, and C is the V chord of F, when you use F Bb C you have a I IV V in F major C pulls to F so when you play Bb C you have now reestablished the key as F its an easy way to change keys because C and F are in both keys allowing you to use the chord borrowed from F major to change to F major, but if you go from the Bb to an F then back to C you have the simple gone down a fourth and down a fourth both resolve, I hope that wasn't too confusing



In re-reading everything here I liked your explaination the best IMO, in all honesty I actually overlooked your post (just didn't see it - sorry), after reading and taking on board everyone else's perspectives, in hind sight, your response seemed to sum up everyone else's comments into one, and was nice and simple to read and worded a polite fashion.

Very professional!

Thanks a bunch badz!
#33
keep on track people, and leave out personal attacks etc. Who started it is irrelevant, please either report such posts or ignore them completely.

=========

I was thinking about this at work today.

The chain of fourth is what is working in the revised progressions.

(That and the difference in phrasing - one ends the phrase on C and Ii assume a new phrase starts on C and goes to F then G etc. (Ex 2) The other (Ex 3) concludes the phrase on the F chord Bb F C F. Because of the cycle of fourths progression where you end the phrase really matters.)


Bb F C

Bb->F is a movement down a perfect fourth (IV-I in F). F->C is a movement down a perfect fourth (IV-I in C).

tonibet72 you said you were learning about cadences which is what took you down this road in the first place. During that you might have seen that a IV-I cadence is called a plagal cadence.

A V-I is an perfect cadence. This resolution is stronger than the IV-I for various reasons. I could explain them all to you if you like and it doesn't require an extensive background in music theory to understand but would be a lengthy post because, well, I sometimes get quite detailed.

Moving along...the IV-I or V-I can have an effect of tonicizing the I chord. In a cycle progression (aka chain progression) each chord is tonicized by the last.

In the case of Bb-F-C we can stop on C and it will feel resolved. Or we can continue down the chain of fourths to a G and If we were to conclude our phrase there...it will feel resolved and G will sound like the I chord...

...Or because the V-I movement is the strongest resolution we can also end our cycle of fourths by introducing a perfect cadence by going down a fifth to an F chord and it will sound resolved there.

Cycle progressions are very common to see in modulations. They are also common as chord progressions on their own. (Hey Joe is a classic example in which the whole thing is a cycle of down by fourth movements to end on an E - C G D A E)

And you already know inversions. I know you know inversions because you have used them, and used them very nicely. There are some people that learn what inversions are but then don't know how to use them. It's not worth losing any sleep over to be honest but here is a quick and dirty explanation.

An inversion in music is when you have an interval between two or more notes and you take the bottom note (or top note) and move it, usually by a single octave, to the other side of the other note(s).

You will get it with an example... play a perfect fifth: C and G
e|
b|
g|
D| 5
A| 3
E|

Then take play the same two notes but this time move the C up an octave so that it is now above the G...
e|
b|
g| 5
D| 5
A|
E|

Same two notes but you now have a perfect fourth.


Inverting a chord is the same basic principle. It is easiest to see in the case of a simple triad:
C E G:

e| x
b| x
g| 0
D| 2
A| 3
E| x

Take that C and move it up one octave:

e| x
b| 1
g| 0
D| 2
A| x
E| x

You still have a C major chord but now it is voiced E G C (low to high) the E is the lowest note.

Then if you invert it again you take the E and move it up an octave as well to get a second inversion of C major:

e| 0
b| 1
g| 0
D| x
A| x
E| x


That's really all there is to it. Note that these examples are just using a close (as in near) voiced triad (close voicing means that the notes are all within one octave of each other.

In practice it doesn't matter much how you voice the rest of the notes all that matters is the bottom note. So E C G and E G C (both voiced low to high) are both C major in first inversion. So too is E G E C G or any other voicing (so long as the E is the bass note).

Inversions could be considered a subset of slash chords and they are often written as slash chords. C/E is a C major in first inversion. However C/A is not an inversion since the A is not a chord tone in C Major. A seventh chord can be inverted again to have the 7th as the bass note. C/B is actually a CMaj7 in third inversion.

That's all there really is to chord inversions. Their main use is to create nice bass lines that follow a smooth melodic line as opposed to just jumping around following the root notes.

You know these because you use them and though it might just be an instinctive use without an academic understanding of what you're doing it's the instinctive understanding that's important. The academic side is pretty much just putting names to what you're doing.
Si
#34
Quote by tonibet72
It was just a typical Gen-Y response that's all (...turns out I guessed ya's both right anyhow - that's gotta be tellin ya something!), I digress...

just so ya know: you opened your post by saying ya don't understand, if only as much as 10%, then began to deliver a theory regardless... a little cocky don't ya think?
and when you stated that a I-IV-V prog involves no other chords and topped it off with "simple as that" I was like okay I guess i'll disregard anything joe pass said about embelishment and substitution etc...

altho I appreciate yr input, I was actually raising what I thort was an interesting issue to which with your opening line in your reply seemed to just dismiss as drivel (turns out other people were a lot more engaging and actually remarked that they too, had mis-understood at first) - I actually DID state TWICE in my original post that people please consider their answers before they replied... it just felt like I just didn't get that sort of consideration from your "knee jerk reaction" response that's all.

In actual fact usually it's my girl friend who's constantly bickering about "good ol'e Gen-Y thinking they know everything all the time" only for me to remind her that she's of that generation herself (i'm an X myself) her argument is she's in sales so she meet's everyone so.... "what would I know?" lol :-)

A generalisation? - Sure!
did yr comments kinda fall into that bracket? ..mm.mmm..k-i-n-d-a?
ANYWHO!...
please dude please don't just go shooting back now and be all offended like, you asked and I took the time and repect to honestly respond, and I am_ sure that I may very well require your feedback on future posts for any issues I may have.

and I myself will pormise to keep the extemporaneous floccinaucinihilipilification to a minimum...


Hey, I tried to help you out man. I'm sorry if it came off as arrogant or whatever you think is so typical to 'gen-Y's'. I think everyone else covered what you were actually asking (20Tigers and The4thhorseman, especially. Kudos to them! I tried but my knowledge just wasn't on-par. They put up some golden info on this topic), but just a word of advice on dealing with other people: acceptance and understanding.

I truly wasn't trying to come off as 'arrogant', a 'know-it-all', or whatever. I know I don't know shit. Music is a journey and takes years of learning beyond what I've lived to truly understand. I saw no replies so I added one in hopes that you would either revise what you were asking or maybe, on an off-chance, what I said would answer your question. Thankfully you revised it as I wasn't the only one completely confused by your post. Was it that offending that no one understood what you were trying to say that you had to go after an entire generation of people?

If it's any consolation, I DID think about what I was posting. In fact, I edited it 3 times. When I started writing it it was 4 times as long and AeolianWolf hadn't even posted yet. I just really wasn't sure what you were asking, and I wanted to make sure my info was relevant to the best of my abilities. Maybe it's typical for the 'Y-Generation', but I believe that some information is better than no information.
#35
@tonibet72

I've been here since 2009 and have posted roughly 4k times in this forum alone trying to advise someone, help them or otherwise contribute towards not just feeding answers to people but motivating them. I posted an answer to this topic that was short and sweet and correct.

I assure you AW knows his stuff. Probably in the top 1% of people that do post here. And if you are looking to integrate in this forum, regularly, it might be a good idea not to alienate yourself by being snarky and with "Gen Y...?" generalizations.

For what it's worth in the pecking order of things, AW is highly regarded, and when you come at him, challenging his pedigree, you only make yourself look foolish/ignorant. It's better to ask questions, learn the lay of the land, and ease on the smart remarks and snippy comebacks. Humility will go a long way here. You ask good questions, but sometimes you don't yet know what you don't know, and there's some really good advice and answers, in what AW wrote. He was factually correct.

And I want to say something that I run into a lot here. When someone starts out with a question that has a flawed premise, you can't really go anywhere until you get them to realize and fix that flawed premise. You have to untangle that spaghetti and THEN assist with their question once the tangles are straightened out. A lot of time it's like trying to comb through someones hair which has bubblegum all through it. You have to get that straight first; get the gum out of the way.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Feb 21, 2014,
#36
Quote by The4thHorsemen
Ugh... after reading his and mjones' responses it probably would have been a good idea to try to rephrase your question. Instead you made a random remark about generation. What the hell does that have to do with anything? I just saw the post where you halfway explained it and that just sounded like trying to demean a person based on age.

Your original post was really hard to follow, which is why everybody misunderstood it, and I only happened to catch the intent while I was trying to simplify 20Tigers's first post for you because I thought he had already answered it and you just didn't understand it.



there was nothing wrong with my question, it's just that the answer needed careful consideration, both you and 20 ended up admitting you'd read the post wrong, but I got slanged for it!!

my brother sister and most of their friends are Gen-Y's, so too is my girl friend, they all reckon a few of ya's just need to lighten up a bit... (some were actually saying... yeah that's so true), so yeah maybe it's all a matter of perspective?

just for the record, when I first asked the GY qstn, I never actually gave a reason to why I was asking BUT most people seemed to know what was being said, or at least assumed they did... pity how they can't "read between the lines" when trying to decipher a somewhat complicated music theory question... hmmm

and if you think no one else here hasn't had something stupid to say, yr dreamin... go back and read the posts...
i'm wrong, unclear, only understood 10% of it... mate! how would you have asked the question? even when fellow posters here were giving wrong answers, you all gave praise to their intellectual prowess (how insulted mite I have been - realising that because i'm new to this that my perspective counts for little)... felt like I was in amongst the stepford wives club or something.
you yourself could have re-read my post... got what I was asking and then decided to word it in a manner that everyone might have better understood... everyone wants to opinionate but only very few actually wanted to help... personally I do think you have tried to help...

I had read and re-read my original post and hey, if that's gobbly gook to some people... just don't bloody reply... man is that so hard???
and that is what initially annoyed me, that people had the audacity to comment, accuse me of wrong, and only a few of you were big enuff to admit, you had missed what I was asking in the first place.

I came here to learn something, not to have people bignote themselves, and when push comes to shove, they shy away and offer nothing.
#37
Quote by tonibet72
there was nothing wrong with my question, it's just that the answer needed careful consideration, both you and 20 ended up admitting you'd read the post wrong, but I got slanged for it!!

my brother sister and most of their friends are Gen-Y's, so too is my girl friend, they all reckon a few of ya's just need to lighten up a bit... (some were actually saying... yeah that's so true), so yeah maybe it's all a matter of perspective?

just for the record, when I first asked the GY qstn, I never actually gave a reason to why I was asking BUT most people seemed to know what was being said, or at least assumed they did... pity how they can't "read between the lines" when trying to decipher a somewhat complicated music theory question... hmmm

and if you think no one else here hasn't had something stupid to say, yr dreamin... go back and read the posts...
i'm wrong, unclear, only understood 10% of it... mate! how would you have asked the question? *more stuff*


More simply, to put it blunt.

There was a A LOT of fluff in your original post. It was hard to understand, and as pointed out, some of the tabs were either incorrectly formatted or incorrect all together. If I were to ask such a question, I'd makes sure everything was as correct as possible (there is also an 'edit' button for mistakes in formatting or wording). You can't expect people to understand a mis-communicated idea, especially on the internet.

A good practice is to read back exactly what you've written to make sure it all makes sense before posting. Don't skim it, either. Make sure every sentence is correct and doesn't cause confusion. Also, cut out unnecessary sections/sentences.
Last edited by mjones1992 at Feb 21, 2014,
#38
I'm honestly getting tired of trying to reason with you about your behavior, so I'll just say you've stepped on a lot of toes of people trying to help and reply to the one question in there that has anything to do with the topic.

How would you have asked the question?


I would have just posted examples 2 and 3 and asked, "How come the second one modulates to F at the end instead of staying in C even though both of these progressions end with the same chords in the same order?"
#39
Quote by Sean0913
@tonibet72

I've been here since 2009 and have posted roughly 4k times in this forum alone trying to advise someone, help them or otherwise contribute towards not just feeding answers to people but motivating them. I posted an answer to this topic that was short and sweet and correct.

I assure you AW knows his stuff. Probably in the top 1% of people that do post here. And if you are looking to integrate in this forum, regularly, it might be a good idea not to alienate yourself by being snarky and with "Gen Y...?" generalizations.

For what it's worth in the pecking order of things, AW is highly regarded, and when you come at him, challenging his pedigree, you only make yourself look foolish/ignorant. It's better to ask questions, learn the lay of the land, and ease on the smart remarks and snippy comebacks. Humility will go a long way here. You ask good questions, but sometimes you don't yet know what you don't know, and there's some really good advice and answers, in what AW wrote. He was factually correct.

And I want to say something that I run into a lot here. When someone starts out with a question that has a flawed premise, you can't really go anywhere until you get them to realize and fix that flawed premise. You have to untangle that spaghetti and THEN assist with their question once the tangles are straightened out. A lot of time it's like trying to comb through someones hair which has bubblegum all through it. You have to get that straight first; get the gum out of the way.

Best,

Sean



Thankyou Sean0913, for going out of your way to reply, thanks for your honesty back and not shooting from the hip, yes I felt like what I was trying to ask was bloodly rocket science (well to me anyway) and regret comin at ya the way I did, (I honestly thort everyone was gonna be the same as him and when you posted, I felt like "okay here we go"), and I was considering leaving this site for good, but I contribute regularly here so of course, I regret having made the GY comment or at least generalising it!

as for AW, we will not talk again (I made sure of that) and I am not concerned with what he has to offer regardless of his stature here (I can live with that), if you go back and look through the thread you'll see that he started out by giving false information, accusing me of not being able to articulate my question (mate it was a struggle just to try and ask the bloody question - let alone try and articulate it to the point of perfection - (took a bit of >what you were refering to< reading between the lines and deciphering spaghetti), and then went on to say "not to mention" my symbols weren't to his satifaction (talk about wanna be spoon fed)... only to end his final contact with me by calling me stupid, and if he posts on my blog again he'll be in trouble. Please Sean, go and read his first post on this thread and tell me you think that's okay to talk to people like that!
If he's been here that long and knows the "lay of the land" he sure has a sh*t way of making new comers feel welcome (It was my very first post!!!) - Just an arrogant self important tosser!

I try to contribute tabs that are hard or rare at this site coz I know people appreciate it and are currently working on another that ain't aound that I believe people will like. I don't know theory to the letter by a long shot, but I have a great ear and seem to be able to work things out where most struggle (within my fields of course), and that's the main reason I come to this site, but with theory "to the letter" is not my strong point and I may need help from you guys with my future tab (but more on that another time).

but my eternal gratitude to you for spending your time (which no one asked of you) trying to make me feel welcome, an letting me in on a few clues as to the culture of this site, that was really nice of you man!

Peace
#40
Quote by 20Tigers
keep on track people, and leave out personal attacks etc. Who started it is irrelevant, please either report such posts or ignore them completely.

=========

I was thinking about this at work today.

The chain of fourth is what is working in the revised progressions.

(That and the difference in phrasing - one ends the phrase on C and Ii assume a new phrase starts on C and goes to F then G etc. (Ex 2) The other (Ex 3) concludes the phrase on the F chord Bb F C F. Because of the cycle of fourths progression where you end the phrase really matters.)


Bb F C

Bb->F is a movement down a perfect fourth (IV-I in F). F->C is a movement down a perfect fourth (IV-I in C).

tonibet72 you said you were learning about cadences which is what took you down this road in the first place. During that you might have seen that a IV-I cadence is called a plagal cadence.

A V-I is an perfect cadence. This resolution is stronger than the IV-I for various reasons. I could explain them all to you if you like and it doesn't require an extensive background in music theory to understand but would be a lengthy post because, well, I sometimes get quite detailed.

Moving along...the IV-I or V-I can have an effect of tonicizing the I chord. In a cycle progression (aka chain progression) each chord is tonicized by the last.

In the case of Bb-F-C we can stop on C and it will feel resolved. Or we can continue down the chain of fourths to a G and If we were to conclude our phrase there...it will feel resolved and G will sound like the I chord...

...Or because the V-I movement is the strongest resolution we can also end our cycle of fourths by introducing a perfect cadence by going down a fifth to an F chord and it will sound resolved there.

Cycle progressions are very common to see in modulations. They are also common as chord progressions on their own. (Hey Joe is a classic example in which the whole thing is a cycle of down by fourth movements to end on an E - C G D A E)

And you already know inversions. I know you know inversions because you have used them, and used them very nicely. There are some people that learn what inversions are but then don't know how to use them. It's not worth losing any sleep over to be honest but here is a quick and dirty explanation.

An inversion in music is when you have an interval between two or more notes and you take the bottom note (or top note) and move it, usually by a single octave, to the other side of the other note(s).

You will get it with an example... play a perfect fifth: C and G
e|
b|
g|
D| 5
A| 3
E|

Then take play the same two notes but this time move the C up an octave so that it is now above the G...
e|
b|
g| 5
D| 5
A|
E|

Same two notes but you now have a perfect fourth.


Inverting a chord is the same basic principle. It is easiest to see in the case of a simple triad:
C E G:

e| x
b| x
g| 0
D| 2
A| 3
E| x

Take that C and move it up one octave:

e| x
b| 1
g| 0
D| 2
A| x
E| x

You still have a C major chord but now it is voiced E G C (low to high) the E is the lowest note.

Then if you invert it again you take the E and move it up an octave as well to get a second inversion of C major:

e| 0
b| 1
g| 0
D| x
A| x
E| x


That's really all there is to it. Note that these examples are just using a close (as in near) voiced triad (close voicing means that the notes are all within one octave of each other.

In practice it doesn't matter much how you voice the rest of the notes all that matters is the bottom note. So E C G and E G C (both voiced low to high) are both C major in first inversion. So too is E G E C G or any other voicing (so long as the E is the bass note).

Inversions could be considered a subset of slash chords and they are often written as slash chords. C/E is a C major in first inversion. However C/A is not an inversion since the A is not a chord tone in C Major. A seventh chord can be inverted again to have the 7th as the bass note. C/B is actually a CMaj7 in third inversion.

That's all there really is to chord inversions. Their main use is to create nice bass lines that follow a smooth melodic line as opposed to just jumping around following the root notes.

You know these because you use them and though it might just be an instinctive use without an academic understanding of what you're doing it's the instinctive understanding that's important. The academic side is pretty much just putting names to what you're doing.



Please know - I am studying this response you posted (so nice of you to do so btw), I will comment later when I feel I have a grasp on what's being said, so much to take in, cheers!
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