#1
hi i shred pentantonics I want that old school shred solos ...hendrix..black sabbath, should I learn the minor scale? What form? I want to rock n roll, classic rock..zappa..vai...satraini..acdc...plz help
Last edited by merks7 at Feb 25, 2014,
#2
I have a feeling you only know one "position" of the minor pentatonic I say this because "rock n roll", ACDC and Hendrix used minor pentatonics a lot.

As for Zappa and Vai, that's getting way out there. Vai favours the lydian scale a lot, Zappa just plays whatever he wants, a crapload of chromatic stuff.

What do you need to learn? Well basically the following in this order.

1. Get away from whatever you think a "form" of a scale is. Meaning your question "what form?" makes no sense. A scale is a set of notes that repeat and cover the entire fretboard.

2. Learn the major scale across the entire fretboard.

3. Learn the minor scale across the entire fretboard.

4. Learn about harmonising and chord construction.

5. Learn how to to identify a key by ear.

6. Learn how to figure out the chord progression of a song by ear (no cheating by checking with tabs).

6. Learn about accidentals. And how to use them.

7. Learn how to figure out solos by ear.

And once you have all the above done you will be able to learn any song, and write songs using any note or chord you want. You will also have played a lot so you can probably shred too.

To get all the above down to an expert level it will probably take your entire life.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#3
To please scales you must first prepare them, tantalise them with your undeniable charm and tease them towards you. After a while of this you may please them - but still, be gentle. For more detailed instructions, google reptilian mating rituals.
#4
I alot of guys play in between the scale patterns, look at the five positions of the pentatonic scale and make a few patterns out of the top and bottom of two interval pastern shapes.
#5
I like to look more at linking chord shapes. Like joining the C bar chord on 5th string to the C bar chord position on 6th string. This way by thinking in chord shapes inside the scale you have better chance of landing on a chord tone. It will help you explore the fretboard with more confidence when you know where to land.
#6
Do you honestly think Peter Green or Eric Clapton gave a toss about scales (that is if they knew them which they didn't).
Scales are the reason why you go from venue to venue hearing the same solo.
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#7
Quote by Rhys Lett ESSM
I like to look more at linking chord shapes. Like joining the C bar chord on 5th string to the C bar chord position on 6th string. This way by thinking in chord shapes inside the scale you have better chance of landing on a chord tone. It will help you explore the fretboard with more confidence when you know where to land.

Solos should follow the chord pattern. Chords are what I base my Bass lines on not scales.
After 52 successful years of gigging I must be doing something right.
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#8
Quote by Rhys Lett ESSM
I like to look more at linking chord shapes. Like joining the C bar chord on 5th string to the C bar chord position on 6th string. This way by thinking in chord shapes inside the scale you have better chance of landing on a chord tone. It will help you explore the fretboard with more confidence when you know where to land.



Well put... I agree!
#9
Quote by AlanHB
I have a feeling you only know one "position" of the minor pentatonic I say this because "rock n roll", ACDC and Hendrix used minor pentatonics a lot...

1. Get away from whatever you think a "form" of a scale is. Meaning your question "what form?" makes no sense. A scale is a set of notes that repeat and cover the entire fretboard.

6. Learn how to figure out the chord progression of a song by ear (no cheating by checking with tabs).

To get all the above down to an expert level it will probably take your entire life.

1. By "what form..." merkz meant Natural vs Harmonic vs Melodic minor etc..
and what position on the fret board is most useful for the styles he mentioned...
if there are any (he was just asking!)
made sense to me. (A: learn all basic scales (minors/pentatonics) etc and hear what scales/positions fit and where best played on fret board for what you are trying to achieve etc...)

6. Do cheat by "refering" to tabs/scores it really will excellerate your ear...
if you simply dont_ know what your trying to hear... why keep yourself in the dark?
once you "know" what a chord - interval - phrase etc... "sounds" like "correctly",
you will always have the correct "sound" identification in your ear!

It will not take an entire life time to become expert level...
just ask a young Wynton Marsalis, Steve Vai... etc...

In my opinion, your post more intimidates rather than inspires... (just saying)
Last edited by tonibet72 at Mar 3, 2014,
#10
Quote by tonibet72
1. By "what form..." merkz meant Natural vs Harmonic vs Melodic minor etc..


Yeah, it can mean multiple things so we'll just let TS answer that question.


Quote by tonibet72
6. Do cheat by "refering" to tabs/scores it really will excellerate your ear...if you simply dont_ know what your trying to hear... why keep yourself in the dark?
once you "know" what a chord - interval - phrase etc... "sounds" like "correctly",
you will always have the correct "sound" identification in your ear!


That's like looking up the answer to a maths question before you try to answer it. Take away the answer and you get lost. It is better to start off in the dark and try to figure it out. Furthermore if you think that the tab on this site is largely correct, you are mistaken.

Quote by tonibet72
It will not take an entire life time to become expert level...
just ask a young Wynton Marsalis, Steve Vai... etc...


What I should have said is that you are constantly learning how to use these things differently, and you will continue to learn new ways to use them over the course of your entire life.

Quote by tonibet72
In my opinion, your post more intimidates rather than inspires... (just saying)


Cool.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#11
To play good solos you need to first hear a good solo. Listen to lots of solos and find out the things that you like. Learn the style. Soloing is not only using scales. The note choice you use doesn't automatically make your solo sound good or bad (you can make good sounding solos with any scale). There are more things like rhythm, phrasing, technique... All that stuff that is equally important. A good solo isn't just scales.

So maybe learn to play your favorite solos. That way you'll learn the soloing style. Remember to use your ears.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#12
1) to play in those styles, you need to know the Minor Pentatonic, Aeolian mode ( natural minor scale) and the Dorian Mode - that will cover pretty much most of it.

2) Start learning solos by ear now. That's how you become a great player and actually learn how to use those scales in a musical way.

3) AlanHB 's suggestions are good.
#13
Quote by tonibet72
It will not take an entire life time to become expert level...
just ask a young Wynton Marsalis, Steve Vai... etc...

Listen to CDs by those artists. You will probably hear them using techniques/patterns they used in their older material on their newer material -- but in a completely different way. (I know, for a guy like Steve Vai, you might have to actually analyze his material to make those kind of connections.) Point is, they didn't just go, "Oh, I'm a virtuoso now. Why bother to keep growing as a musician?" They keep trying to push the boundaries of their musical level. No one ever really "becomes an expert". By which I mean, there's ALWAYS more to learn. Part of the thing about music is that, as a musician, there shouldn't be a point where you can't learn anything else.

Quote by reverb66
1) to play in those styles, you need to know the Minor Pentatonic, natural minor scale, and the Dorian scale (which contains the same interval pattern as the Dorian mode but isn't modal, because of the way it is often used in a song) - that will cover pretty much most of it.

Because it bugs me, I fixed that. Also, I would recommend learning the major pentatonic.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Mar 4, 2014,
#14
Just do something simple, listen to Fleetwood Macs 'Don't Stop' lead break, it does what a lead break should which is compliment the song, nothing whatsoever to do with scales just musicianship.
Do you honestly think that the Guitar Gods of yesteryear like Paul Kossoff (Free 'Alright Now') considered scales.
An average player can make solos up from scales, a musician plays to compliment the musical piece/song.
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#15
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
. Why bother to keep growing as a musician?" .


Musicians play music, technicians play notes (millions of them).
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#16
Quote by John Swift
Musicians play music, technicians play notes (millions of them).

A musician studies music, and since music is an almost unlimited thing...there's always more to study.

"Technicians" don't even enter this equation. If you want to argue about whether Shred is a dick-measuring contest or something, do it elsewhere; because it sure won't help TS learn a damn thing to do it here.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Mar 4, 2014,
#17
Listen to CDs by those artists. You will probably hear them using techniques/patterns they used in their older material on their newer material -- but in a completely different way. (I know, for a guy like Steve Vai, you might have to actually analyze his material to make those kind of connections.) Point is, they didn't just go, "Oh, I'm a virtuoso now. Why bother to keep growing as a musician?" They keep trying to push the boundaries of their musical level. No one ever really "becomes an expert". By which I mean, there's ALWAYS more to learn. Part of the thing about music is that, as a musician, there shouldn't be a point where you can't learn anything else.


...nope I still believe they were pretty darn good back in those days too bud...

...as for the rest of your reply... duh!

so please leave me out of your dick measuring contest!
#18
Quote by tonibet72
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Listen to CDs by those artists. You will probably hear them using techniques/patterns they used in their older material on their newer material -- but in a completely different way. (I know, for a guy like Steve Vai, you might have to actually analyze his material to make those kind of connections.) Point is, they didn't just go, "Oh, I'm a virtuoso now. Why bother to keep growing as a musician?" They keep trying to push the boundaries of their musical level. No one ever really "becomes an expert". By which I mean, there's ALWAYS more to learn. Part of the thing about music is that, as a musician, there shouldn't be a point where you can't learn anything else.



...nope I still believe they were pretty darn good back in those days too bud...

Of course they were. Wasn't saying they weren't.

...as for the rest of your reply... duh!

so please leave me out of your dick measuring contest!

Will do.
#19
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Of course they were....
...please leave me out of your dick measuring contest!

Will do.

Ha ha... that was funny, best reply i've had yet at these forums!
Finally someone with a sense of humour... Props2ya!
#20
Quote by John Swift
Do you honestly think Peter Green or Eric Clapton gave a toss about scales (that is if they knew them which they didn't).
Scales are the reason why you go from venue to venue hearing the same solo.


I honestly do think they gave a toss, and they certainly did use them.

and no scales aren't the reason for a lack of originality or creativity.
#21
Quote by GuitarMunky
I honestly do think they gave a toss, and they certainly did use them.

and no scales aren't the reason for a lack of originality or creativity.



Yes I agree, somewhere Eric Clapton is quoted saying the reason for the band name Cream, was due to their actual formal music training, and as a result they considered themselves to be the "cream" of their genre.
#22
Merks, you should not only learn the minor scales, but learn the subtle differences between them, their uses in harmony, and along with that, obviously knowing the notes of the fretboard on command is a huge plus. Knowing them without the aid of "patterns" is an even bigger plus, imo. To me, the only help patterns ever gave me were only for technical purposes like speed and accuracy practicing.

To truly be a master of improvisation, you must be aware of what is going on in all 3 levels of music. Rhythm, melody, and harmony.

Rhythm comes pretty naturally to most people, but if it doesn't, practice your phrasing until you are confident that you can, say, play over the same progression for a few minutes and produce something new in each loop. If you find yourself being overly repetitive, work on fixing it.

The melody you shred should essentially be based on the harmony underneath it. When you are playing a solo, it is important to know what chord progression you are playing over, and what chord is currently being played, so you can exploit it to the best of your abilities. Learn about different note functions, this involves lots of theory. Theory will not limit your creativity, contrary to popular statement around here, it will help you word your musical ideas better, and understand those ideas on a different level(s). There is always a reason to play any note, at any time, but it is up to you to find those notes, and know when to play them. And I think most MT regulars will back me up on that.

Soloing is an art like any other, and art is free of perfection. You can always get better, so keep practicing and studying. Good luck!