#1
Can someone post some musical examples of mode based music, and key based music? Or even shoot a demo to illustrate a few points? (I'd rather listen and use my ears than read yet another thread where everyone tries to talk about modes). every time a thread about modes starts it just turns into loads of contradictory rubbish and arguing. Not only do I not understand the usage of modes, but I don't understand why people seem to go on and on and on about it. Whats the big deal?
I like drones, pedal riffs, ambient music etc. Would modes be useful tools for expressing changes in mood, without losing the droning feel? Cos I find I can't really retain the droning effect using a key and chord progression while still getting it to go someplace. But that might be just me.
#2
vv

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#3
Not sure if the best example but the synth parts of this song are pretty "mixolydian sounding". The other parts are in A minor and A major.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3jRK-sdTSE
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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#5
Nice video, thanks. Really helpful!
When he mentions the characteristic chords for a scale, he says for example Aeolian i, iv and v. But isn't this key-based? I read on the forum a lot that modal play is different from the key and diatonic stuff, but then this went and confused me a bit. I understand how to construct chords from scales, and prefer seeing the modes as a major scale with some sharps or flats in there, but it hasn't quite clicked how modes supposedly differ. This just seems like the same thing to me.. take a scale, make some chords out of it, use scale to play the lead lines, hitting the chord tones... the only difference is which notes are being used in the scale to begin with. Is that it?? oh and that they happen to have that 'major scale starting on a different root' thing going on to give the specific initial notes.. am I on the right track?
#6
Quote by Elintasokas
The best video ever for this purpose. He goes through all the modes and shows really good examples...


The video started on such a good note that I feel a little bad about this post...

I still don't know why people choose to ignore the Key of the song.

During...

C Lydian: His progression is just a IV-V in G.

C Ionian: The characteristic chords are the same chord used in the other keys. I-IV-V

C Myxolydian: His progression is just a V-I-IV in F.

C Dorian: His progression is just a II-V in the key Bb Major. iii-ii for the Miles tune So What.

C Aeolian: Again we see another i-iv-v progression. In the key of Cminor the minor "v" would be a major "V" to create a resolution to the Cminor chord.

C Phrygian: His progression is just a iii-IV in the Key of Ab Major.

C Locrian: This section in his video is probably the saddest part in all of this. He just ignores it.

Locrian is starting on the 7 of its keys(Db Major in this case) which sound nice on Major I chords because you're starting on the 7(ti in solfege) of the Chord or the 3rd of the V Chord(Ab Major in this case)

So all this comes down to him just playing a simple variations of a ii-IV-V-I in different keys. Ignore all his bII or iv or whatever BS.

------
Just for the **** of it, I'll do a quick lesson on Locrian in his style.

C locrian: i°- bII. Cdim to DbMajor... or vii°- I in the key of Dbmaj.

Examples: Bach Preludes. He uses 7-1's in minor and major keys in most of the pieces I've looked at.
Last edited by Deadds at Mar 8, 2014,
#7
A# Dorian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxCXetJbFMI

B Lydian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq0cS_9dfDg

D Phrygian (intro riff):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-Su1YXQYek


You can mostly use modes as certain 'mood setters' so to speak.

For instance, dorian is kind of minory but uplifting so to speak and it resolves itself nicely when you play around with voicings and stuff. I think the main thing with dorian is that its hard to make a definitive riff with it, in my personal experience (so don't really take that to heart), but as you can hear in the Meshuggah song, its very very light and spacey sounding. Another example of dorian is Billy Jean by MJ.

Lydian is one of my favourites, I sometimes call it the 'heartbreaker' mode. Its really bright and sparkly, it has a certain cheesy charm to it, and its often called the 'cartoon scale' by songwriters in media. For example, the Simpsons main theme tune. However, it also has a really strong minor component to it when going from the major third to the root note while harmonizing with the augmented 4th that's in the Lydian mode. The song I posted is a pretty great example of this.

Phrygian is probably the 'default' metal mode. Its kind of middle eastern sounding, but its not really dark so to speak, it contains a lot of energy or helps build anticipation. Using the minor 2nd as a 'second root note' helps pull out the power the mode has, while it still remains pretty melodic and consonant.

Quote by innovine
oh and that they happen to have that 'major scale starting on a different root' thing going on to give the specific initial notes.. am I on the right track?


Yep. For example, if you have A major, you can begin on the E and use the same notes within the A major scale to produce E Mixolydian.

Another example of 'scales within scales' is that if you had say, B Phrygian then started on the minor 2nd note, you'd have C Lydian within the same set of notes, and another is, if you start with E Dorian and move to the major 5th, you have A Mixolydian in the same set of notes.
o()o

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#8
Quote by Deadds
The video started on such a good note that I feel a little bad about this post...

I still don't know why people choose to ignore the Key of the song.


If you want a song to be modal, it is in a mode, not a key.

So everything you just wrote like this:

C Lydian: His progression is just a IV-V in G.


Actually should read: His progression is just an I-II in C lydian.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#9
Quote by AlanHB
If you want a song to be modal, it is in a mode, not a key.

So everything you just wrote like this:


Actually should read: His progression is just an I-II in C lydian.



Is 'C lydian' a key, or a mode? Does it matter? Is there something unclear in the terms?
For instance, not using the words 'key', or 'mode', I take for example the randomly selected notes C D E F# G A B (I think of this as the major scale with a sharpened fourth). Then I can play a I-II progression, deriving the chords from the scale notes, that's correct, right?
What happens when I play a different chord progression? Does it start to lose its 'lydianess' in some way?

Is it also correct to say that given any 7 notes, one can come up with a chord progression, and its just where the 7 notes comes from which is causing a lot of confusion?

Or am I missing some fundamental difference? I just dont think I see any difference between playing a progression of chords derived from a major scale (playing in a key) to playing a progression of chords derived from a different scale (a mode)... the only difference I understand here is the pattern of whole and half steps between notes, which gets rotated to form new scales (modes).

Rather than explaining further, I'd appreciate it if any errors or incorrect assumptions
in my ideas above are corrected first.
Last edited by innovine at Mar 8, 2014,
#10
What is the difference between IV-V in G, and I-II in C Lydian?
If you want a song to be modal, it is in a mode, not a key.

Is it just what I want that is the difference? I think there might be more to it than that.. :/
#12
Quote by innovine
What is the difference between IV-V in G, and I-II in C Lydian?

Is it just what I want that is the difference? I think there might be more to it than that.. :/


A song in the key of G major is in a major key, and resolves to G.

A song in the mode of C lydian is in the mode of lydian, and resolves to C.


The concept of a song being "in a mode" predates the current key system. They are separate concepts. Instead of 2 keys, there were 7 modes. Over time these were "streamlined" to some extent until there were only two, the major and minor.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#13
Quote by innovine
What is the difference between IV-V in G, and I-II in C Lydian?

Is it just what I want that is the difference? I think there might be more to it than that.. :/

The difference is the tonal center.

But yeah, playing modally is not the same thing as using major and minor chord progressions with "borrowed" notes/chords from other modes. Anyway, that's how I use them and it works for me. For example playing minor with a natural sixth (dorian) really makes a big difference. This is not really playing modally, but it provides some interesting colors for your standard major/minor stuff.

Modal music doesn't even have chord progressions as far as I know. AlanHB and the other guys know more about this, though.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Mar 8, 2014,
#14
Quote by Deadds
The video started on such a good note that I feel a little bad about this post...

I still don't know why people choose to ignore the Key of the song.

During...

C Lydian: His progression is just a IV-V in G.

C Ionian: The characteristic chords are the same chord used in the other keys. I-IV-V

C Myxolydian: His progression is just a V-I-IV in F.

C Dorian: His progression is just a II-V in the key Bb Major. iii-ii for the Miles tune So What.

C Aeolian: Again we see another i-iv-v progression. In the key of Cminor the minor "v" would be a major "V" to create a resolution to the Cminor chord.

C Phrygian: His progression is just a iii-IV in the Key of Ab Major.

C Locrian: This section in his video is probably the saddest part in all of this. He just ignores it.

Locrian is starting on the 7 of its keys(Db Major in this case) which sound nice on Major I chords because you're starting on the 7(ti in solfege) of the Chord or the 3rd of the V Chord(Ab Major in this case)

So all this comes down to him just playing a simple variations of a ii-IV-V-I in different keys. Ignore all his bII or iv or whatever BS.

------
Just for the **** of it, I'll do a quick lesson on Locrian in his style.

C locrian: i°- bII. Cdim to DbMajor... or vii°- I in the key of Dbmaj.

Examples: Bach Preludes. He uses 7-1's in minor and major keys in most of the pieces I've looked at.

this is absolute diarrhea
#15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQfnUnxFMT4&feature=share&list=PL8DF3F0FB81D03B82&index=6

Modes were used before our current key system was established, because modes don't really allow you to go anywhere, as you've described. You can get a cool sound going, but that's pretty much it the only sound you're going to get from a mode. Hence, why people moved on.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


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#16
Quote by innovine
What is the difference between IV-V in G, and I-II in C Lydian?


Knowledge, is the difference.

Understanding.

Most of us that understand, or know, put in the time, maybe we took classes, or read a lot of books, and struggled to understand. Some paid for teachers, and applied themselves to learning everything, not just modes, but the basics, so that when they got to modes they could relate it to a bed of knowledge.

What's your story? What have you done, besides come here with your hand stuck out?

Best,

Sean
#18
Quote by Sean0913

What's your story? What have you done, besides come here with your hand stuck out?

Best,

Sean


I thought this was a forum to post music theory questions, and help each other with answers? If you dont understand this then you dont need to be a dick about it, and you dont need to reply.

I also sent you a PM last year requesting some mentoring/tutoring, with a willingness to pay for such, but you didnt reply then, and there's no need for you to do so now. My gratitude to those who took the time to answer my stuck out hand, without sticking out theirs for reimbursement.

The 'It's free' part of your sig needs updating.
Last edited by innovine at Mar 9, 2014,
#19
Quote by Elintasokas
Yeah, indeed. He is completely clueless.


Quote by :-D
this is absolute diarrhea


lol I like how both of you talk shit but don't actually respond with any sensible information.

Maybe the "Musician Talk" section isn't for you.
#20
Quote by Deadds
lol I like how both of you talk shit but don't actually respond with any sensible information.

Maybe the "Musician Talk" section isn't for you.


Don't worry - I addressed your post mate, so did Elintasokas.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#21
Deadds

IV-V in G major is not the same as I-II in C lydian. As AlanHB and Elintasokas said, IV-V in G major resolves to G. I-II in C lydian resolves to C. That's why it's called C lydian and not G major. It's about the tonic.

C lydian and G major scales do share the same notes but that doesn't make them the same. E minor and G major scales also share the same notes and they are not the same. For example iv-ii-iii in G major is not the same as i-iv-v in E minor. The chords are exactly the same but what makes them different is the context. If the song is in G major, it resolves to G and if the song is in E minor, it resolves to E. That's why we use iv-ii-iii when we talk about G major and i-iv-v when talking about E minor. The I or i chord is the tonic.

I don't think modes as a major scale with different root notes. This is the way I think:

dorian = minor scale with a major 6th
phrygian = minor scale with a minor 2nd
lydian = major scale with an augmented 4th
mixolydian = major scale with a minor 7th
(ionian = major scale, aeolian = minor scale, locrian = useless)

This makes it easier to understand the differences in sound.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#22
Quote by innovine
I thought this was a forum to post music theory questions, and help each other with answers? If you dont understand this then you dont need to be a dick about it, and you dont need to reply.

I also sent you a PM last year requesting some mentoring/tutoring, with a willingness to pay for such, but you didnt reply then, and there's no need for you to do so now. My gratitude to those who took the time to answer my stuck out hand, without sticking out theirs for reimbursement.

The 'It's free' part of your sig needs updating.



Innovine,

I did get a PM from you regarding mentoring, and I always reply to those who do. In fact I replied to you on June 13, 2013, the same day you emailed me. Here is the reply:

Hey Niall,

Thanks for the great introduction. You covered all the kinds of things I'd want to know about you to start out with. Sure, go ahead and link me to some YouTubes of tracks you like, and I'll see what I can do to help.

I understand you may be interested in lessons as well - for now, lets hold off on the lessons part, and just do the mentoring, until I better zero in on the exact direction that you're going. You have said shades of things that make me think they might benefit you, such as wanting to compose, and construct original music, but there are different ways to go about that. But for now, let's look at the tracks and see how it goes from there.

Hope you're having a great day!

Best,

Sean

Notice, even though you suggested "taking lessons" I suggested, "Hey, lets see where you're at and see how we can help you, first". Does this look like someone that's simply trying to scoop up money from students? Because I don't see that. I try my hardest to make sure that what I teach is a good fit for you. I could fill this forum with behind the scenes people that I carefully evaluate to see if they are a good fit, and many many times I tell people, hey, wait. Let's mentor a while. That's because I'm not wanting anyone to just enroll. I want to help people, and that's a perfect example. If I think what I teach can help, then I'll say so, and leave it to the person to decide.

I don't want to waste anyone's time and money and I answer questions as honestly, and from the perspective of trying to help, and never my own financial gain.

By the way I never got your response, and that's why I never was able to mentor or help you further.

And this IS a forum to help each other with answers, but you missed the idea behind my reply, and that is, that for most people, the answer to the questions you asked, came after significant personal study and investment. I can assure you the answer I made was not made in haste. I went to your profile, I read your past threads, and got to "know" you. I found several instances of where people responded to your threads, and you were never heard from again, for example, naming the notes.

All I saw was question after question, for instance how to use 7ths, without even taking the time to discover and read about Diatonic Harmony. The picture emerged of a person who shows up, asks questions, and many times didn't respond to the answers given.

Many times I find people that do not want to invest of themselves, I've been coming here in this forum to help people for over 4k posts since 2009. Nowhere did I stick my hand out to be reimbursed by a single person I've helped. The only place I have is for those who came to me for personal instruction (Academy Students) or coaching, for example, preparing for a University audition to a music program.

So no, I went and tried to learn more about you, via posts you've made and specifically reading threads you've posted in MT, before I posted a response. The point of the response is to kick you in the butt and bluntly advise you that, the answers that you seek, require a foundation to understand. If you invest in that foundation, then you get the clarity you seek. When people respond and you don't understand, you get off your butt and go LEARN that, you don't ask questions, and funnel people into teaching you all the background stuff you don't have. That's asking for free education by proxy. That's not what we are here to do. Its NOT our job to make sure that you have everything to need to answer your question. That's why many times, we refer people to the basics of music theory.

If you take offense to my direct approach, then I guess you don't get the point of what I was trying to do. I even asked you in my response "What's your story" because I went out and read as much as I could about you to assemble a profile of where you might be coming from, and the furthest I've seen is you learned the basic 7 chords in a simple key, and from there you stopped.

I noticed, that in your response you called me names, but never answered my question, which is your prerogative. I'm not here to be a dick, I really do try and help people, and had I seen your reply in your PM for help, I would have responded, as I respond to everyone. I even did a search of my inbox just in case I missed it, and sure enough I had responded.

I don't ignore sincere cries for help, and many times, my answers are meant in a "tough love" way, to inspire others to get off their butt and put their own time, sweat equity and work into it, but it may not always be taken as such. Such is life. But I always try. I'm sorry if you thought my response was being a dick, I wasn't trying to be, but I don't mind being tough/direct to get someones attention. That's the same honesty and integrity that drives my teaching passion.

And by the way, if the picture I got of you is a complete misfire, I'll be the first to stand up as a man and apologize. I have nothing at all against you, and would help you in a heartbeat if you responded to my email. Even now I would, with the same provisio, on waiting to see if what we do was a good fit before enrolling in the Academy (not that it may be of interest to you now). Either way, if I've got you wrong, then please accept my apology. I'm not out looking to offend, but I'm a straight shooter, and a butt kicker when I see the place for it, and in this instance, I thought that might be what's needed. Go look at Pebber Brown, one on Buckethead's teachers sometime.

Lots of us in our passion and zeal to reach and help others will use a kick in someone's butt from time to time, or a shake them to wake them approach, because I see so many musical zombies pass through here, dead, droning, groaning about their problems, and going nowhere because they won't get up and commit to doing anything.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Mar 9, 2014,
#24
Quote by Deadds
lol I like how both of you talk shit but don't actually respond with any sensible information.

Maybe the "Musician Talk" section isn't for you.


I'm going to come to your defense a little bit mate, because while I agree with others that you're off, I think you bring up an important point that can be lost in the criticism.

That point is all of these COULD become what you said, if someone tries to treat modes the way they do chord progressions. Because many of these are derived from major scales (theory cops, don't come here and argue semantics with me) the fact is, that if you're ignorant of the in's and out's of the usage of modes, you can quite easily start out thinking you're playing a mode, only to have that feel "hijacked" through improper usage of the chords.

For example playing the V chord, which now will only sound like it wants to resolve to the I of the attending Major key where you derived the mode from. This is why you see modes curiously represented against simple vamps. What you don't often see, is how those vamps are sugar coated to not appear monotonous. The "backing track" is usually one or two chords, played ad-infinitum and distracted with "changes" carefully so as not to expose attention that dude these are the same two chords, and they seemingly never resolve strongly. Understanding the pitfalls, and accepting their limitations, you can play modally. Not accepting them, and calling CST "modes", or the scale itself a "mode" because you started on a "different" note of the major scale, is pure ignorance, and misses the critical link between modes and chords.

So, I think your post bears some merit because it shows how easily someone can start out thinking modes, and degenerate into a simple major or minor key in a heartbeat.

Best,

Sean
#25
Quote by Deadds
lol I like how both of you talk shit but don't actually respond with any sensible information.

Maybe the "Musician Talk" section isn't for you.

I actually explained it in my first post, but read Maggaramarine's post. He explains it in detail.

Well it isn't for you either then. You typed a post full of misinformation and tried to make it seem like the truth, even though it's clear that you're confused on the subject yourself. If you aren't certain of something, don't state it as the truth.

You can question things, but not be like "NO, IT'S LIKE THIS. I KNOW THIS" unless you really know what you're talking about.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Mar 9, 2014,