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#1
Hi there This past week while checking out the top 100 TABs I stumbled across a submission entitled "All The Chords". It is number three in top 100 tabs by rating with 2367 votes earning a 5 star rating as of this post. It includes 300+ comments of mostly praise and, here's the kicker, to anyone who has studied even the most basic rudiments of music, it is god awful, ignoring keys and intervals and the most basic of chord formulae.

http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc/all_the_chords_crd.htm

Why the concern? Because bad information breeds bad information like a disease. Obviously, MANY people have been influenced by this 'work' and innocently and sincerely pass it along to other learning musicians. I'm sure many of you have seen Bb labelled as A# in flat keys and there are numerous examples of that and worse.

This CAN be fixed if enough people are interested in putting in just a little bit effort to positively change things. I'm curious to see if this issue has every bothered anyone here and what you think can or should be done about it.

Thanks for your time and input
Last edited by P_Trik at Mar 10, 2014,
#2
Quote by P_Trik
Hi there This past week while checking out the top 100 TABs I stumbled across a submission entitled "All The Chords". It is number three in top 100 tabs by rating with 2367 votes earning a 5 star rating as of this post. It includes 300+ comments of mostly praise and, here's the kicker, to anyone who has studied even the most basic rudiments of music, it is god awful, ignoring keys and intervals and the most basic of chord formulae.

Why the concern? Because bad information breeds bad information like a disease. Obviously, MANY people have been influenced by this 'work' and innocently and sincerely pass it along to other learning musicians. I'm sure many of you have seen Bb labelled as A# in flat keys and there are numerous examples of that and worse.

This CAN be fixed if enough people are interested in putting in just a little bit effort to positively change things. I'm curious to see if this issue has every bothered anyone here and what you think can or should be done about it.

Thanks for your time and input


From my experience, many guitarists are rather lazy and would rather learn through numbers on a screen instead of actually understanding music, which is fair enough if you're 'learning' guitar for fairly superficial reasons, so they would much prefer a tab like that.

So yes, bad information does breed further, but chances are good that any guitarist who is dedicated to it and worth listening to play in any way would know the basics of music and not just guitar.
#4
Jimi had talent (I know, I know - 'don't feed the trolls' but sometimes it's too hard to resist)

@Tommat: if you could participate in a project that could transform a piece of 'BAD' work into something accurate and useful, would that interest you?
#6
Quote by one vision
hendricks didnt knoe theorie y shud i den?


Even though he couldn't sit down and explain things in a theoretical way, he understood how things worked. Like other players in his time, he had a great ear and was able to hear the different intervals.

Most people today are lazy, and they don't want to learn things the right way. They would rather read tabs that are mostly inaccurate, and learn "all da modezz" rather than actually understanding music. I mean, look at all of the kids that come here with a tab of an A minor scale, yet they keep saying "Oh, it's a mode, bro" and they refuse to learn the theory behind it.

As for me, my ear is decent enough to work out some things, and I have a pretty decent understanding of theory. I'm one of those people who would rather spend the time to work things out so I can better myself as a player.

(And yes, I do know that one vision is trolling. I went off on a bit of a tangent.)
Skip the username, call me Billy
#7
Thanks for the post, aerosmithfan95. So did you look at the link to "All The Chords"? And is this something that gets under your skin from the perspective of it influencing learning guitar players that come to UG for help and 'learn' from this kind of horrible information?

If yes, then would you be interested in putting in just a bit of your own time and efforts in helping to fix it?
#10
Sean0913, as a TAB contributor on UG, I submit transcriptions because of a desire to help those musicians still developing their skills/knowledge/ear.

This 'work' I'm referring to spreads confusion and 'BAD' information. I believe we have an obligation to share 'GOOD' and accurate information with learning musicians. Why do we post things on here? Is it to help people?

As a guitar teacher, wouldn't it be nice to help make a difference for your students as well as mine?

Same question: Would you be willing to put in just a bit of your time and efforts in order to fix this submission that purports itself to be helpful information?
#11
Most people today are lazy, and they don't want to learn things the right way. They would rather read tabs that are mostly inaccurate


So I've been playing guitar for 2-3 years, learning by myself through the whole thing. Theory doesn't occur to a beginner with the mindset of "I wanna play this song" etc. So the whole time I've been using tabs, but since I've heard about theory however many months ago, I feel like I've been lacking. Every resource I try to use starts me at an inaccessible point, to the point where it's almost a different language. I know there's probably a better place to begin learning, but I've just stuck to tabs because it's what I know and I don't know where to begin with theory.

So I'm just saying its not completely about laziness; in my case, I genuinely would like to learn and would put the time in, I just don't know where to start, especially with everyone telling me different things.
#12
Quote by goochlord
So I've been playing guitar for 2-3 years, learning by myself through the whole thing. Theory doesn't occur to a beginner with the mindset of "I wanna play this song" etc. So the whole time I've been using tabs, but since I've heard about theory however many months ago, I feel like I've been lacking. Every resource I try to use starts me at an inaccessible point, to the point where it's almost a different language. I know there's probably a better place to begin learning, but I've just stuck to tabs because it's what I know and I don't know where to begin with theory.

So I'm just saying its not completely about laziness; in my case, I genuinely would like to learn and would put the time in, I just don't know where to start, especially with everyone telling me different things.

Here is a great starting point, probably the best I've seen on the internet (though taking out some books would likely be helpful too)

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/search.php?value=crusade&search_type=columns
#13
Quote by goochlord
So I've been playing guitar for 2-3 years, learning by myself through the whole thing. Theory doesn't occur to a beginner with the mindset of "I wanna play this song" etc. So the whole time I've been using tabs, but since I've heard about theory however many months ago, I feel like I've been lacking. Every resource I try to use starts me at an inaccessible point, to the point where it's almost a different language. I know there's probably a better place to begin learning, but I've just stuck to tabs because it's what I know and I don't know where to begin with theory.

So I'm just saying its not completely about laziness; in my case, I genuinely would like to learn and would put the time in, I just don't know where to start, especially with everyone telling me different things.


Exactly! I second what he's saying, I've been playing for like 3 years, I mostly know chords and can play some solos with the tabs in front of me, I know I don't play all that well, but I would like to learn.

I though about practicing scales, but I don't know what to choose, there's so many and I just don't know which one's I should do first or are easier or whatever.

There's a lot of information but it's all scattered and everyone tells you to do a different thing first.

A place with a guide to learn music would be awesome, and with videos not only text, because with videos there's a lot of other ways to explain complex ideas in music theory. It would have to explain things in a simple but understandable way.

I compose a few things in garage band, I don't know music theory. I can go up to a piano, try out a few keys and then create something, I really can, nothing too fancy but some arrangements and stuff, however if you ask me what notes I'm doing or chords or anything I won't be able to tell you because I can't even play the piano. I did this:

https://soundcloud.com/goshirn/organ-improv
https://soundcloud.com/goshirn/electronic-mass-effect

I have no idea how to play those things anymore, I would really like someone to guide me so I can learn more and begin creating more interesting stuff.
#14
Quote by goshirn


I though about practicing scales, but I don't know what to choose, there's so many and I just don't know which one's I should do first or are easier or whatever.

The answer is simple: Major and minor. Preferably in all keys.
#15
This is why I started this thread thank you goochlord and goshirn. please avert your eyes from the link in the starter post. It is a great example of really, horrifically BAD work. The place to start with theory is the major scale and understanding what a key IS. Two parts; 1) a tonal center - a sound (note) that the piece of music or section of music centers around, and 2) a tonality or mood - major or minor

From there you can memorize the 15 theoretically possible major keys - the scales and therefore the NOTES that belong in them which leads to their relative minor keys and so on. Then the 5 types of intervals, then chord formulae.

I became active on UG last January because I want to help raise the bar on the quality and accuracy of the info on here. A few times I have been sucked into discussions on modes and I think we all missed the boat by not discussing the fundamentals: the major scale, keys, intervals and chords. This piece of work I am referring to in my first post is misleading to the point of damaging any learning musicians that use it. And it's #3 in the top 100, earning a five star rating with 2368 votes.

I started editing it and found the task daunting but would love to work with a few others who have even a rudimentary background and want to make a difference. Volunteers??
#16
Quote by P_Trik
Thanks for the post, aerosmithfan95. So did you look at the link to "All The Chords"? And is this something that gets under your skin from the perspective of it influencing learning guitar players that come to UG for help and 'learn' from this kind of horrible information?

If yes, then would you be interested in putting in just a bit of your own time and efforts in helping to fix it?


Well, I glance over the first bit with the A major chords. If this guy is really using "Db" instead of "C#" in that context, it shows that he's a bit ignorant in proper theory spellings.

I know some people learn to play just so they can do some "campfire songs" with friends every now and than, but that article is a bit ridiculous. They guy spent the time to learn theory, but not learn it well enough. It just bothers me that when people learn theory, they just glance over the basics, cause errors with basic concepts, and think that "learning all the modes" will save them.

Players that are beginning to get into theory should really understand the basics. If they have questions, ask someone who knows their stuff. As with the link you posted, it shows a guy who is familiar with theory, yet posts some errors that many other theory novices will see and make the same mistakes. If you're not completely confident with theory, don't try to teach other people about it. I mean, I wouldn't even know where to begin with counterpoint, so I won't try and share it with other people who are trying to learn it.

Quote by P_Trik
Post about starting with the basics of theory.


That reminds me of what I've been wanting to do for the last few days. I decided to write up a few "lessons" on music theory in MS Word. I started with the notes, major and minor scales, intervals, chord constructions, and keys.

I thought that I would make a series of video lessons with each of the music theory aspects. I would have the video split up with me first explaining the concept in MS Word and the second part showing it on the actual guitar. The only problem with that is the fact that I don't have a decent camera to record me playing.
Skip the username, call me Billy
#17
i really really like you P_Trik

i havent been active here for months but i might scrap some stuff together if i have some time off work this month. beginner musicians tend to try and take shortcuts and it really plagues a lot of content on this site which is why i'm barely around - there's only so much stress i can get from modes threads before i just X out and go smoke a carton of cigarettes
#18
Quote by P_Trik
Sean0913, as a TAB contributor on UG, I submit transcriptions because of a desire to help those musicians still developing their skills/knowledge/ear.

This 'work' I'm referring to spreads confusion and 'BAD' information. I believe we have an obligation to share 'GOOD' and accurate information with learning musicians. Why do we post things on here? Is it to help people?

As a guitar teacher, wouldn't it be nice to help make a difference for your students as well as mine?

Same question: Would you be willing to put in just a bit of your time and efforts in order to fix this submission that purports itself to be helpful information?


Thank you, but I will decline that offer. I disagree with this idea/premise on so many fundamental levels and principles, that I will not be participating in such endeavors. Best of luck to you.

Best,

Sean
#19
Very cool aerosmithfan95 and thanks for the input everyone. This 'work' came to my attention because it's #3 in the top 100 rated and it seems that numerous contributors have been influenced by it and will continue to be. I have sent many people to this site and will continue to do so, but I also want to do all I can to contribute to changes that bring the quality of information up. I believe there are numerous UG members that share the same passion and hence this thread.

Up to very recently, the only way to facilitate change in a submission like this was to down vote it and leave comments as corrections or in this case, a warning to others. But... this submission can be edited. Changed. Improved. If that interests anyone, PM me

Have a great day
#20
Quote by P_Trik
Hi there This past week while checking out the top 100 TABs I stumbled across a submission entitled "All The Chords". It is number three in top 100 tabs by rating with 2367 votes earning a 5 star rating as of this post. It includes 300+ comments of mostly praise and, here's the kicker, to anyone who has studied even the most basic rudiments of music, it is god awful, ignoring keys and intervals and the most basic of chord formulae.

http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc/all_the_chords_crd.htm

Why the concern? Because bad information breeds bad information like a disease. Obviously, MANY people have been influenced by this 'work' and innocently and sincerely pass it along to other learning musicians. I'm sure many of you have seen Bb labelled as A# in flat keys and there are numerous examples of that and worse.

This CAN be fixed if enough people are interested in putting in just a little bit effort to positively change things. I'm curious to see if this issue has every bothered anyone here and what you think can or should be done about it.

Thanks for your time and input


So make ur own. Im sure the author of the one you just linked will love you for bashing all the hard work he did, where only some chords are wrong, and the majority are right.
Which btw, is also in the comments. it's not all praise.
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#21
Hi BjaredeGraaf. Unfortunately, the majority are wrong. It's ok to NOT know something and work towards learning it - it's another to pass misinformation along to others trying to learn. This piece of work is #3 in the top 100 rated and no one with any kind of rudimentary music education would rate it even 3 stars much less recommend it to a student or a friend.

This guy put a pile of effort into it without paying any attention to the major scale, intervals and the basics of harmony.

It would take me years to build a house that someone who knew what they were doing could build in a matter of weeks and mine would still be an unsafe pile of crap despite my sincere effort.
#24
Quote by P_Trik
it's another to pass misinformation along to others trying to learn. This piece of work is #3 in the top 100 rated and no one with any kind of rudimentary music education would rate it even 3 stars much less recommend it to a student or a friend.



Welcome to the internet.

You have to consider that those misinformers most likely had the same good intentions as you.

It would be a mistake to think you can cure the internet (or even this site) of people that want to pass themselves off as experts by posting advice or "lessons". Given the abundance of information (or misinformation), I'd don't see you could even make a slight dent. and how would anyone be able to tell the difference between your 5 star post and someone else's 5 star misinformation.

That said you certainly can add to the pool, and if your info is good, you'll be helping somebody.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 11, 2014,
#25
GuitarMunky, yes, absolutely. I'm sure this person submitted with the best of intentions and I in no way am accusing him of deliberate misleading. It doesn't change the fact that many people HAVE been mislead and will continue to be so.

So question for you: if a handful of us could make this particular submission better, for what reasons would we NOT?
#27
Quote by P_Trik
GuitarMunky, yes, absolutely. I'm sure this person submitted with the best of intentions and I in no way am accusing him of deliberate misleading. It doesn't change the fact that many people HAVE been mislead and will continue to be so.

So question for you: if a handful of us could make this particular submission better, for what reasons would we NOT?


1) overall, it wouldn't make a difference.

2) who's to say that you wouldn't be making new mistakes to replace the bad


from edited post above:

It would be a mistake to think you can cure the internet (or even this site) of people that want to pass themselves off as experts by posting advice or "lessons". Given the abundance of information (or misinformation), I'd don't see how you could even make a slight dent. and how would anyone be able to tell the difference between your 5 star post of correct info and someone else's 5 star post filled with misinformation. And you have to consider that you might make a few mistakes yourself. On top of that, the flood of new expert lessons will always continue, so how do you expect to keep up with that?

That said you certainly can add to the pool, and if your info is good, you'll likely be helping somebody.

overall though I say, why bother?
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 11, 2014,
#28
Interesting thoughts.

1) seeing as this is #3 in the top 100 rated 'works' I would think that over time it WOULD make a difference

2) I'm sure that anyone with any basic knowledge of Keys/Scales/Intervals/Harmony would know that they could fix even a small section of this work.
#29
Quote by P_Trik
Interesting thoughts.

1) seeing as this is #3 in the top 100 rated 'works' I would think that over time it WOULD make a difference

2) I'm sure that anyone with any basic knowledge of Keys/Scales/Intervals/Harmony would know that they could fix even a small section of this work.


I'm unwilling to contribute, but I do wish you luck!
#30
one vision, if you are a music teacher, you must know that no matter how good the information gets on the internet, people will always benefit from direction from an expert. I never worried that this site or any other would put me out of a job - but UG is a site that can benefit someone I am currently guiding or have guided in the past.

I find it interesting that many with the knowledge and skills to make a positive difference would rather troll or expend energy making excuses as to why they won't/can't make that difference. Why not? Too much effort? Not enough pay in it?

What if each of you were to edit a few lines - redefine a few of the chords with the proper note names/intervals? Again I ask you, why wouldn't we do this?
#34
Im a guitar teacher currently. My experience is that learning theory properly takes a lot of work, and often, only serious committed students are willing to put the effort into it.

You need to learn to read treble and bass clef, spell all your major and minor scales and modes with accidentals and key signatures.

Identify basic chord qualities, identify and write intervals.

And you need ear training to ingrain this stuff in you mind plus lots of practice analyzing and reading music.

to apply it to guitar you then need a solid knowledge of sight reading and where all the notes are on the neck as well as how to play different scales, triads, chords etc.

Most people just want a quick fix, there is no such thing for really understanding theory. It takes a few years of work to understand the basics and then it takes application of it in real life to really get it and make it useful.
Quote by The Spoon
Unless you're sure she likes you, telling her you like her has a 110% chance of failing.

But hey, at least you have a 10% chance of absolutely guaranteeing failure.
#35
Hi British_Steal Yes, it seems to take a great deal of commitment but I have been able to use the major scale and intervals as part of day to day lessons using whatever pop style students of all ages are interested in. UG has been an awesome resource even though as flawed as us humans who use it. This particular chord list CAN be fixed if a few people are willing to help
#36
you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him empirically intelligent.

good luck, guys, i'm with munky on this one.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#38
Quote by British_Steal
Im a guitar teacher currently. My experience is that learning theory properly takes a lot of work, and often, only serious committed students are willing to put the effort into it.

You need to learn to read treble and bass clef, spell all your major and minor scales and modes with accidentals and key signatures.

Identify basic chord qualities, identify and write intervals.

And you need ear training to ingrain this stuff in you mind plus lots of practice analyzing and reading music.

to apply it to guitar you then need a solid knowledge of sight reading and where all the notes are on the neck as well as how to play different scales, triads, chords etc.

Most people just want a quick fix, there is no such thing for really understanding theory. It takes a few years of work to understand the basics and then it takes application of it in real life to really get it and make it useful.


I kind of disagree with you.

Why exactly do you need to know how to sight read in order to apply music theory to your guitar playing?

I can read music quite well, but I can't really sight read and I'm able to use music theory successfully in improvising and composing with both piano and guitar. Why do I need to know how to write intervals (yes, obviously I do know, but I'm still questioning it) on a musical staff?

When I think of intervals, I remember the sound and see a piano keyboard in my mind, not a staff.

Now, I'm not saying reading music is bad. No it's actually very useful. I read a lot to learn some songs fast if I'm feeling too lazy to play by ear, but I think you emphasize the importance of reading music a bit too much.

I see reading music and music theory as two separate things. You can know how to read really well and not know shit about theory and you can know quite a bit of theory without really caring about reading. (I was the latter back when I still played guitar)
Last edited by Elintasokas at Mar 11, 2014,
#39
I TOTALLY AGREE with the original post.
This "chord chart" is FULL of errors in the labeling and notes of chords.
It will definitely create confusion if someone "learns" from this.
It says that an Am/F = xx2211 and Am/G = x02223.
Those are SO inaccurate. There are MANY MANY MORE!

I did just start work on a correction of this.
It's a MAJOR undertaking.
Started with the A's and found SO MANY problems it's astounding!

The page being referenced (http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc/all_the_chords_crd.htm) in this post REALLY ISN'T a good source for chord information.
#40
A random list of "all the chords" isn't very helpful to anyone without contextual examples or even a basic theoretical underpinning.

Ted Greene's Chord Chemistry already nailed this ages ago anyway.
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