#1
I find memorising theory like what notes are in each key, scale, chord etc difficult. Im using the cof5 but i was wondering what methods you used for this.
#3
Use the mnemonic device: Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle. It's the order in which sharps appear in key signatures and the same words backwards make sense as a sentence and are the order in which flats appear.
#4
I agree with you that the traditional methods are very difficult. When I read these comments, and I've read them for years since coming here, I just shake my head. I teach a very progressive way of knowing all these things. What I can tell you, in direct answer without a shadow of a doubt are 2 things.

There IS a far easier way to know all of these. I can give you a demo at any time (or anyone else).

You will never find it in traditional methods, or for free.

I applaud your honesty for pointing out the inherent "elephant in the room" that everyone sees, but no one addresses, and that is, about how difficult the traditional method is. Mnemonics, Co5, and musictheory.net type approaches all fall short of ease, and it has been commonly and universally accepted that this is the best way there is, and such difficulties are just a natural fact of life. Nothing could be more wrong.

I've been fighting this notion for years now. I feel sorry for anyone that believes in the viability of the traditional method.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Mar 16, 2014,
#5
Quote by Sean0913
I agree with you that the traditional methods are very difficult. When I read these comments, and I've read them for years since coming here, I just shake my head. I teach a very progressive way of knowing all these things. What I can tell you, in direct answer without a shadow of a doubt are 2 things.

There IS a far easier way to know all of these. I can give you a demo at any time (or anyone else).

You will never find it in traditional methods, or for free.

I applaud your honesty for pointing out the inherent "elephant in the room" that everyone sees, but no one addresses, and that is, about how difficult the traditional method is. Mnemonics, Co5, and musictheory.net type approaches all fall short of ease, and it has been commonly and universally accepted that this is the best way there is, and such difficulties are just a natural fact of life. Nothing could be more wrong.

I've been fighting this notion for years now. I feel sorry for anyone that believes in the viability of the traditional method.

Best,

Sean

Ok, I'd like to hear/see your demo about it.
#6
Quote by Sean0913

There IS a far easier way to know all of these. I can give you a demo at any time (or anyone else).


Very interesting. I'd like to know more of this method you're talking about please.
#7
The "trick" is making theory relevant right away. You really have to use these ideas for them to stick.

Most people undertaking formal music study already have years of experience playing, performing, reading, and even writing music in an academic setting. When those players learn theory, it's all very familiar things, just with new concepts added. For the majority of guitarists who don't come up in the academic setting, written music - especially classical stuff - can seem very foreign. The stuff you already know probably doesn't fit easily with the "rules" of basic music theory, but that's OK (very little music does, actually).

Look for ways to apply the ideas directly to the fretboard. You're learning key signatures and scale building? Start working those scales out on the guitar, too. Start learning some music based on the principles you've learned so far, like Circle of 5ths progressions. You'll get it all memorized pretty quick if you spend a few hours laboring through the process of locating every Eb major note on the guitar.
#8
There is a certain amount of memorization to anything you learn and varying ways of accomplishing that, just like math, the multiplication table etc. Memorizing the 15 theoretically possible major keys/major scales leads to an understanding of the intervals and therefore chords that are built on them. Like cdgraves said, using this knowledge in your day to day practice and making it relevant is what makes it all 'stick'.

Look around the site at transcriptions that ignore keys and name chords improperly using sharp names for notes that should be flat and numerous other mistakes and you'll understand why it's important to lay a good foundation with Keys/scales/intervals. There are no shortcuts but there may be some good ideas as to how to make these things relevant to your own experiences.
#9
*Pro tip: beware anyone cutting others down while trying to sell you something. There is NO shortcut to acquired knowledge. It takes study, memorization and practical use. Good luck
#10
Quote by P_Trik
*Pro tip: beware anyone cutting others down while trying to sell you something. There is NO shortcut to acquired knowledge. It takes study, memorization and practical use. Good luck


Thanks for the "Pro Tip".

Here's one. Look at the sum total of posts in this forum, since 2009. Then read a large sampling of them.

I'll tell you there is a shortcut to the skill sets, and while it takes study memorization and practical use, to do anything, the connection time is far less. I'd be happy to demonstrate that skill set to anyone, any time, via skype, but, the provisio is, when I prove my point, you come back here and advise the community in this forum how you were profoundly wrong. If you figure to call me out, and presume upon My motives, make sure you have an idea of what and who you are calling out. Don't approach this from a standpoint of ignorance.

I will take on any and all comers, publicly or privately.

Coming into the MT forum panhandling for tab help, does not make you an expert on the denizens of that forum. The only thing that "puts someone down", is when I say something they do not want to hear. I do not handhold.

I'll leave it for others to pass out the teddy bears.

Best,

Sean
#11
Quote by Elintasokas
Ok, I'd like to hear/see your demo about it.


Sounds good. We can do Skype or whatever works for you, but please contact me via PM here, and we can arrange it. The same goes for others interested. I don't know if there's a way to do a group, or conference video or call thing, but if anyone knows of that, let me know and I'd be happy to do a group presentation.

Best,

Sean
#12
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder, Sean and the fact that you took THAT part of what I said as a personal affront instead of: "There are no shortcuts but there may be some good ideas as to how to make these things relevant to your own experiences" as possible support, speaks volumes.

You may be very good at what you do, but saying that your way is better than any other method or that: "I feel sorry for anyone that believes in the viability of the traditional method" only shows your own prejudices and ignorance. I highly doubt that ANY of us have a completely traditional background - most blend some kind of theoretical education with a practical one. I was lucky enough to have been working with a local guitar hero 'mentor' who played only by ear at the same time as studying classical theory when I was in my teens.

I'm not criticising your method of teaching nor your coming here to drum up more student business. I see four lessons on your page and nothing bad in them, nothing that profound either. Why not post one introductory lesson on this topic and yes, if your method is new, simple and better, I'll be one of the first to rate it as such and post in MT in support.

Good luck
#13
its easier to just take a class if you are serious enough about music, homework/exams will force you to study. don't be cheap, invest a little bit in your education. in my case i took music theory classes for beginners in university when i was in my last year of computer science and we started from absolutely nothing to a level where we could analyse some easy Bach pieces
in my case i was lucky to get an exceptional teacher too
#14
Quote by P_Trik
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder, Sean and the fact that you took THAT part of what I said as a personal affront instead of: "There are no shortcuts but there may be some good ideas as to how to make these things relevant to your own experiences" as possible support, speaks volumes.

You may be very good at what you do, but saying that your way is better than any other method or that: "I feel sorry for anyone that believes in the viability of the traditional method" only shows your own prejudices and ignorance. I highly doubt that ANY of us have a completely traditional background - most blend some kind of theoretical education with a practical one. I was lucky enough to have been working with a local guitar hero 'mentor' who played only by ear at the same time as studying classical theory when I was in my teens.

I'm not criticising your method of teaching nor your coming here to drum up more student business. I see four lessons on your page and nothing bad in them, nothing that profound either. Why not post one introductory lesson on this topic and yes, if your method is new, simple and better, I'll be one of the first to rate it as such and post in MT in support.

Good luck


I've always made my prejudice known and backed it up. The last part is important. I've backed it up. I am prejudiced and biased, just so there's no illusion on my stance, and yes I believe in what I do.

Look at my tenure here. I started back in 2009. Here. In this forum. in 2011 I was recognized State wide (that state being Texas) for my program, and hence appeared on national radio (NPR) where I spoke for over 6 minutes about the success and uniqueness of my program. This may be the 2nd time in over 4k posts that I've ever mentioned it.

As to whether I am "drumming up" student business, I point you out the last person who came to me about being a student, and I referred him to someplace else. He also called me out, earlier this week, for not "responding to him" only to find that I had responded. Rather than apologize publicly, in the same topic, he came to me in private admitting his mistake.

Whatever, I'm nonplussed. That's his prerogative to save face. The point is, I turn countless people away after making an assessment on what they are after. Am I saying that I advise some people NOT to come to me, when they have expressed interest? Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

I'm beyond the point of proving myself, by about 3-4 years. I don't need to. I'm not posting anything for free, because people pay me for that information. It's a slap in their face.

I will give a demo of the skill sets, and let you decide. But, I'm not here to sell anything. Let me make my next point perfectly clear:

If you go to Google, and type in "Music Theory For Guitar" or "Advanced Guitar Lessons", my site doesn't come up. Here's why.

I don't advertise. I don't use AdSense, AdWords, I don't Pay Per Click. I don't spam websites with links. I don't play the game where you market with landing pages, use analytics and smooth pitches to get students. I don't believe in sales.

What I do, by sharing what we do (and always in relation to a direct question by the OP) is I let them or anyone else coming here that we exist. And they do have an option, beyond free, and beyond what they will find from Google searches. Now the choice is theirs. My job is done. They know I'm out there, that's it.

It's their choice to contact me, ask questions etc. I also mentor for free, and when I do, I don't push my lessons or site. They already know what I do, they have information to make an informed decision.

I don't ascribe to the notion that all information that is good must be found on Google search. I say that if you play Google's game and follow their algorithm and mood and policy changes, and if you're willing to pay enough, or give things away for free, you can play on Google's field. I'm a rebel. I refuse.

So, I'm here to help, and make people aware of all possible options. If someone says "Whats a good way to learn theory?" I'm going to chime in, every time, because it IS a good way to learn theory. Its a superior way to learn theory. People may find that claim hyperbolic, or distasteful, because they don't know better. But I'm here 4k posts later, my message has never changed. I have had more UG'rs in the 4 years I've been here than I need specify. If I was snake oil, why are they still my students?

If my claims were fake, don't you think there'd be ONE student that came in and said "OMG This guy is doing nothing new, nothing more than...x y z. He's a scam. Save your money, save your breath". This is the Internet - I'd been crucified. So either two things are possible: I'm a babbling self-important madman, or I'm the real deal. There are no other possibilities.

I've never requested or asked anyone of my UG students to pipe in on the veracity of my claims, I have no need to prove it; they know. Everyone knows. So, I just go about helping, kicking butts (in a well meaning way) and hopefully shaking up and inspiring people along the way to invest into their own development. There are plenty of guys that want the rewards without asking anything in return. They believe that all information should be free and accessible. I do not subscribe to these notions. I find that, what you invest into, you also see through. When you have skin in the game, then you make sure you get something out of it. That which costs nothing, is worth nothing to you.

That is the culture I do not mind offending. Show me you're serious and I'll bend over backwards to help you.

That's the chip on my shoulder, nothing more.

Your statement "there are no shortcuts", while well meaning, was ignorant. You don't know better, because you haven't seen what I do. Why should your ignorance offend me? One of us knows the truth. You did not see my free lessons, you saw old thumbnail on my site, where the design is a good 3 years old, and currently under a radical redesign. I have no free lessons, but I'll answer any questions.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Mar 17, 2014,
#15
That was a very long reply that still didn't even hint at anything new in your approach and ignored what was previously said except the parts that you feel the need to argue about, Sean. I also don't subscribe to the notion that the worthwhile is found for free on Google search. I said earlier that you can see misused and misunderstood 'theory' right here on UG - not just more advanced things - I'm talking fundamentals like the thread starter was talking about - how to memorize which notes are in which keys etc.

That's a freakin' HIGH horse you rode in on, bro. But you're from Texas so the ego is expected.
#16
Quote by P_Trik
Use the mnemonic device: Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle. It's the order in which sharps appear in key signatures and the same words backwards make sense as a sentence and are the order in which flats appear.


I memorised the sequence, but my brain is thinking

Ok E im in E major key
Charles =0
G 1sharp which is F
D 2 sharps F and C

Then im thinking
E maj 12 oclock then 11oclock is dom etc

Then okay chords in the maj key MmmMMm etc

Then im trying to quickly work out what those chord names are from the E scale, then working out the notes in the chords.


As you can see my brain is going slow!
#17
You aren't going to learn this stuff overnight. There's no need to anyway. Make flash cards and every day for 20 or so minutes work on them. It'll take a few weeks, maybe a month but if you use it everyday then you'll have it forever.
#18
No worries, alienholdsworth. There is a table that can be memorized that goes hand in hand with that particular Mnemonic device that will help you get there quickly in your head. Then the major scale and the 'number system', that is, the chords that belong in a major key; I iim iiim IV V vim, can be memorized.

One thing at a time and USE it when learning new songs. Pay attention to the notes and chords in any new song; analyse the key it's in and listen to the relationships of the chords/chord roots. I'm certainly not bashing Sean's method so take him up on his offer of an initial Skype session and see if it works for you.

Good luck
#19
Quote by P_Trik
That was a very long reply that still didn't even hint at anything new in your approach and ignored what was previously said except the parts that you feel the need to argue about, Sean. I also don't subscribe to the notion that the worthwhile is found for free on Google search. I said earlier that you can see misused and misunderstood 'theory' right here on UG - not just more advanced things - I'm talking fundamentals like the thread starter was talking about - how to memorize which notes are in which keys etc.

That's a freakin' HIGH horse you rode in on, bro. But you're from Texas so the ego is expected.


I think we are getting off on the wrong foot here, and I certainly don't have any ill will for you. I did think that your "pro tip" was directed towards me, and your Texas blast, was less than magnanimous.


So we are clear, regarding your expected response: there will be no "hints" given to my approach. Can you tell me why you'd expect that I would give any?

I know there are instances of theory that are misused here. There are also options and choices available to everyone. Everyone has a choice to be how smart or dumb they wish to be. So I declined, because I do not share this global obligation that you champion. I take it that you didn't appreciate that. If someone doesn't take it upon themselves to be educated, should I feel a cause exists?

I'm not from Texas, but I live here and have my school here. I'm originally from Los Angeles and I've been playing for almost 30 years and teaching for about 20.

The approach works. Let me make it clear, I'm not the thing that makes it superior. I'm no one; I'm just like everyone else here.

Ego is the last thing you'll find with me. I am, however, confident and truthful, and I see no reason why I should be insecure and insincere. I champion anything that is good with the same passion.

For example, I contend that David Oakes's sightreading book is the best resource ever made for sightreading. And, I didn't write that book, but I can passionately defend it.

I contend that Justin Sandercoe is an amazing teacher and free resource for beginners.

I contend that for music theory lessons for free it's hard to top the depth and accuracy of Mike Dodge, and I'm not he.

I contend that Jimmy Bruno is a no bones, old school, but very knowledgeable resource for those seeking to play jazz.

But if you ask me anything with theory, whats the best way to learn the notes, how do you know every chord, how do you learn to understand theory in a way that's easy, then I present what I teach as better than all. Same conviction, and I've backed it up, so, what more need I say? A person will either find out or they won't.

Either way, I still do what I do, and will be doing.

@alien - slow is exactly what you should expect, as I have said, using the "traditional method" they go hand in hand. Memorizing tables, and so forth, none of these are going to be anything but time consuming, and slow. EVERYTHING using the traditional method will be the same way. But that's the course you've charted.

I prefer being able to instantly do things. The key of E:

E D# G# A B C# D# E

Chords E F#m G#m A B C#m D#o E

7ths: Emaj7 F#m7 G#m7 Amaj7 B7 C#m7 D#m7b5

Naming the notes instantly:

E G#B, F# A C#, G# B D#, A C# E, B D#F#, C# E G#, D# F A

To do this in 2 lessons, is pretty good, compared to the traditional method.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Mar 17, 2014,
#20
The Texas reference was in retort to your cocaine fueled sales pitch on how great your method is and how any other method doesn't work. I'm an American citizen from a more hippy state, who lives now in a province of Canada three times the land mass of Texas. Big deal.

Bottom line is that TS asked for specific help on a simple topic and you were offended at my reply to him, decided to tell us both how great you and your method is. No matter how good the info becomes here or anywhere else on the net, there will be no shortage of demand for private lessons.
#21
Quote by P_Trik
The Texas reference was in retort to your cocaine fueled sales pitch on how great your method is and how any other method doesn't work. I'm an American citizen from a more hippy state, who lives now in a province of Canada three times the land mass of Texas. Big deal.

Bottom line is that TS asked for specific help on a simple topic and you were offended at my reply to him, decided to tell us both how great you and your method is. No matter how good the info becomes here or anywhere else on the net, there will be no shortage of demand for private lessons.


I am not offended. I'm laughing. Why would I be offended by your ignorance?

You purport your "facts" and "Pro Tips" and I correct/address them, and you are left unable to respond so you are left with a choice: either acknowledge you are ignorant, or else, continue to make up more "facts" and set up straw men to distract from the facts that were addressed. I see what you've chosen.

Others can read however, so for you it's a hollow "victory", at best.

One more fact: I do not take cocaine or any other drugs.

Best,

Sean
#22
Sean, it you took multiple posts, repeating how great your method of teaching keys/scales/chords is, but without saying a damn thing about it, and how you don't give out your specialized knowledge for free, to finally tell TS an answer to what he asked. Good on you. Here's your teddy bear
#23
Quote by P_Trik
Sean, it you took multiple posts, repeating how great your method of teaching keys/scales/chords is, but without saying a damn thing about it, and how you don't give out your specialized knowledge for free, to finally tell TS an answer to what he asked. Good on you. Here's your teddy bear


Thanks for playing. Perhaps a reading comprehension course would be in order, since you apparently have the retention of a funnel.

A word of advice. Let it go. This is what they call taking a thread off topic, and it's disrespectful to the TS. I'm done now. If you'd like to engage me, then create a thread for that purpose, or else PM me in private. This has gone far enough, and I'm done responding in this, with you.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Mar 17, 2014,
#25
Well TS. I guess this would be a good time to come back in on this.

Theory isn't easy to learn. There's no shortcut.

Don't waste time and money on people claiming this and that. Buy yourself a college level music theory book and start reading.

Google: Music in Theory and Practice, 8th ed. - Benward & Saker

One of the most used books in music schools, because it is one with the least amount of mistakes.
#26
Quote by cdgraves
The "trick" is making theory relevant right away. You really have to use these ideas for them to stick.


+1 to this.

This does two things: It makes the learning process FUN, and it also makes the info sink in better.

I also suggest creating a written outline of the notions. Don't just read them and then try to memorize them, actually write out an outline as if you are explaining the ideas to some one reading your outline. This process, of you explaining the ideas to some one else, forces you to think things through and digest them.

For example, I read about the Circle of 5ths, about the major/minor scales, about how to figure out what chords are in a given key, about how each key has it's own unique number/set of accidentals (or lack thereof), but that was all dry.

I did create an outline where I summarized everything I knew, and in the outline I put in a table that showed the process how you go from the major scale formula to derive the chords that are in that key. I did this for all 12 keys in the outline.

Now, that was just a first step. The next was application.

So I started playing around with C major chord, just noodling on ways to combine the 7 chords in that key to see what worked. You can find chord progressions for songs in that key also and play them, or blues progressions in that key. Then get any chord progressions in that key and practice soloing over them using the C major scale on the fretboard. Again, seeing what sounds good. If you need to limit yourself to one string, or one "box" shape, that's perfectly fine. You will actually be using the notes in that scale, noticing the lack of any accidentals.

Next, I moved onto G major chord which has one sharp, and has a lot of overlap with C. Same deal -- noodling chords, noodling scale notes/improvising, learning some songs with simple G major chord progressions, etc.

Next, I moved onto D major, 2 sharps and so on, I did not even TRY playing anything in F# major or Eb major or C# major or even A major. If I wanted to play a song in those keys, I transposed them to C or G or a key I had worked on or was working on.

When I got comfortable with D, I just "felt" like it was time to learn a song in A, with 3 sharps...I think after that, I felt like jumping to F -- only one flat -- because too many accidentals still confused me. Then onto Bb -- two flats.

I'm not really forcing it, I'm not on any time line, I don't force myself to get through a key a week or a month or whatever. I got through C, G, D, A, and F pretty quick, as those use more open chords that I was familiar with. I have done some in E and B and Bb, and hardly anything in Ab, Eb, C# and F#. I'm not done yet. But I really got comfortable with the music theory behind the keys, the circle of 5ths, how to recognize key signatures, etc., by the time I was working through the D major chords, I just have not really applied it to the keys that just do not seem to come up on any of the songs I want to learn.

Nowadays, I just play what I want and sometimes I see a song in a new key I have not tried before. I just was noodling the other day and decided to write a song in F# major. At this point, it does not really seem harder than playing in any other key because now it's all relative to me, I'm basically playing exactly what I would in any other key, just moved over a few frets.

Because I'm actually playing, jamming, learning songs, improvising, writing songs, I'm not impatient about the learning process because it's really a playing process and playing is fun.

So, anyway, to sum, the way you learn to internalize everything you need to know about the keys is to actually play in them, but I would not try to tackle them all at once, but slowly focus on one at a time and digest it.

Ken
Bernie Sanders for President!
#27
Quote by P_Trik
The Texas reference was in retort to your cocaine fueled sales pitch on how great your method is and how any other method doesn't work. I'm an American citizen from a more hippy state, who lives now in a province of Canada three times the land mass of Texas. Big deal.

Bottom line is that TS asked for specific help on a simple topic and you were offended at my reply to him, decided to tell us both how great you and your method is. No matter how good the info becomes here or anywhere else on the net, there will be no shortage of demand for private lessons.


hello everyone, my name's Johnson... and i'm an alcoholic... oh whoopps, wrong forum...

come on folks lets stick to the topic...

Nice one P_Trik... good advice! Peace!
#28
Quote by Sean0913
.

I prefer being able to instantly do things. The key of E:

E D# G# A B C# D# E


yeah, that's incorrect Sean.
Si
#29
Quote by 20Tigers
yeah, that's incorrect Sean.


Good catch



Shakes head....

I do that kind of typo more times than I'd like to...it comes with the territory at times. I'm thinking 10 steps ahead and missing the obvious thing, like, "pay attention to the typing in front of you". I get so comfortable in what I think I'm writing, I think at times I'm almost on auto pilot!

Thanks again for the flag

Sean
#30
Quote by P_Trik
The Texas reference was in retort to your cocaine fueled sales pitch on how great your method is and how any other method doesn't work. I'm an American citizen from a more hippy state, who lives now in a province of Canada three times the land mass of Texas. Big deal.

Bottom line is that TS asked for specific help on a simple topic and you were offended at my reply to him, decided to tell us both how great you and your method is. No matter how good the info becomes here or anywhere else on the net, there will be no shortage of demand for private lessons.


different methods work for different people and for different reasons. I think he was offended at receiving a sarcastic "pro tip", when he sounds like a pedigreed professional player and instructor.

Most music instruction methods depend entirely on being studied academically or institutionally - classical or jazz training. The majority of guitarists learning theory do not have the benefit of 500+ years of educators honing a method just for them. For that reason, most guitarist will benefit from a different kind of training than you find an academic text.
Last edited by cdgraves at Mar 17, 2014,
#31
I would write down on paper the order of sharps and then flats and the keys and whatever i would want to memorize. Basically by writing it over and over. i do not know if that is a good way but it is the way i did it.
#32
There are a bunch of pedigreed teachers on here that use UG as a resource and point their students towards the site. Most of us have formal theoretic and practical training as well as a stint in a recording/touring act. If Sean wants to promote his methods as the BEST way to learn and be derisive of any other approach, he's gonna meet resistance of some sort.

Disrespect breeds disrespect.
#33
Short answer is you don't really "memorise" theory - because most of it will seem meaningless unless you understand the context, and the context is sound. For example, no matter how many times you read that the interval between A and E is a perfect fifth that piece of knowledge is largely irrelevant until you know what a perfect fifth actually sounds like.

The way to internalise theory is to simply start using it.
Actually called Mark!

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#34
"The way to internalize theory is to simply start using it."

That is literally what my teacher tells me haha.
Just another Sheep in the design of the Almighty Machine.


-GEAR-
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#35
Sean, I don't think you're trying to come off like a jackass, but you are.

Here's why.

The way you're talking about what you're doing sounds a lot like a shady sales pitch. "I have this method. No, I can't explain it. I won't even hint at it. You have to take steps X, Y, and Z and then I'll share it with you."

Anybody who's been on the internet very long knows that sort of sales pitch is usually full of it.

Now maybe you're the exception. It's entirely possible. I don't know what the content of your teaching is. But based on what you've said here, if I had to bet money I'd say that it's about as real as Richard Nixon's secret plan to end the war.

I mean, heck, I'd certainly be interested in checking out what you have to teach, except that now you've come across like someone who - even if he's telling the truth - is so full of himself that he'd be obnoxious to spend the time with in order to learn something, and life's too short for that.
#36
Quote by Fallenoath
"The way to internalize theory is to simply start using it."

That is literally what my teacher tells me haha.


Good advice
#37
Quote by HotspurJr
Sean, I don't think you're trying to come off like a jackass, but you are.

Here's why.

The way you're talking about what you're doing sounds a lot like a shady sales pitch. "I have this method. No, I can't explain it. I won't even hint at it. You have to take steps X, Y, and Z and then I'll share it with you."

Anybody who's been on the internet very long knows that sort of sales pitch is usually full of it.

Now maybe you're the exception. It's entirely possible. I don't know what the content of your teaching is. But based on what you've said here, if I had to bet money I'd say that it's about as real as Richard Nixon's secret plan to end the war.

I mean, heck, I'd certainly be interested in checking out what you have to teach, except that now you've come across like someone who - even if he's telling the truth - is so full of himself that he'd be obnoxious to spend the time with in order to learn something, and life's too short for that.


Unfortunately you're right. Sometimes I have to look like a jackass.

If someone wants to learn from me or not, is really a matter of their personal choice. I'm fine with that. I'm not here to sweet talk and polish my image. Politicians do that. I'm very real with people here. You know that. I'll bend over backwards to help sincere people, but I won't suffer a fool for too long.

All I'm letting people know, is I exist, and if they ask a direct question, should I pretend I can't help them? Like I should be ashamed that what I do could actually help them? I don't understand that.

Or are you proposing that the only time you should help someone is if the advice is free, and if not, keep it to myself? I'm not sure how you see this, but I sure respect you, and so your further thoughts would be appreciated.

That said, I left this thread alone three days ago, out of respect for the TS. Perhaps a private PM between you and I would be in order, and I'd request that people stop necro'ing this, when I've tried to exit this, and respect the point of this thread.

Best,

Sean
#38
Quote by HotspurJr
Sean, I don't think you're trying to come off like a jackass, but you are.

Here's why.

The way you're talking about what you're doing sounds a lot like a shady sales pitch. "I have this method. No, I can't explain it. I won't even hint at it. You have to take steps X, Y, and Z and then I'll share it with you."

Anybody who's been on the internet very long knows that sort of sales pitch is usually full of it.

Now maybe you're the exception. It's entirely possible. I don't know what the content of your teaching is. But based on what you've said here, if I had to bet money I'd say that it's about as real as Richard Nixon's secret plan to end the war.

I mean, heck, I'd certainly be interested in checking out what you have to teach, except that now you've come across like someone who - even if he's telling the truth - is so full of himself that he'd be obnoxious to spend the time with in order to learn something, and life's too short for that.


Couldn't have said it any better:

Quote by Sean0913
I wonder how many people that propose their list, actually have experience teaching, and have had beginning students that they have successfully taught using their suggested approach?

If I used most of your suggestions, I'd be out of business as a beginning teacher, if that's what I depended upon. I make a living teaching music.

20T nailed it IMO, and my experience backs it. Many say it depends upon their goals, but I suggest that, most won't get far if they cant hold a chord. I really don't care about your goals, if you cant even hold a string down and make the most basic of moves, like holding one note and allowing a string underneath to ring free.

And what is the first thing that people ask a student when they hear they are a new student to the guitar and taking lessons?

Answer: "Cool. What songs have you learned?"

Best,

Sean


https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1637624

You won't get a penny from me.
#39
I'm not sure I understand the controversy here. Good advice can always be ignored, if one so chooses. But as a serious musician, I take stock of any piece of advice I find. Learning isn't about doing what's comfortable.

I think the "sales pitch" thing got started because a couple of people asked about it specifically, after only one mention. But isn't being a musician all about self promotion? No amount of skill matters if you're not out there selling yourself. It's not like he's an adbot for fake passports. He shares good information and offers professional services to people who are interested.

Frankly, I give Sean kudos for making an effective sales pitch AND knowing what he's talking about.

Also, like my Soundcloud tunes. vvvv
Last edited by cdgraves at Mar 20, 2014,
#40
Quote by Sean0913

All I'm letting people know, is I exist, and if they ask a direct question, should I pretend I can't help them? Like I should be ashamed that what I do could actually help them? I don't understand that.

There have been a number of different people to respond in this thread saying that your post comes across as a sales pitch.

Letting people know you are selling a product is advertising. When people ask a question that directly relates to what you are selling and you respond by letting them know that you are selling a product it is targeted advertising, but still advertising.

There are many professional teachers that visit this site. If ONE person is allowed to actively "let people know" their professional services are available for hire in their posts, or to claim to have secret knowledge superior to all other methods that will solve the TS's problem quickly and easily that they will not share unless the TS (or other reader) pays for the privilege, then ALL the teachers MUST be allowed to do the same thing.

From there all the threads turn into an initial question followed by pages of teachers promising to solve the TS's problems if they contact them privately and pay for lessons. That's not what we want for this forum.

No one needs to be ashamed of teaching. No one is expected to give away "proprietary secrets" for free, but advertising (regardless of how selective, or subdued it appears) is not free either. So if you choose not to give it away for free then so be it, but this is not the place to let people know they can pay you to provide the answers for which they are searching.
Si