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#2
I stopped reading when I saw this:
Most of the time it sounds as if it’s in the minor mode of A Aeolian*

and
But the first chord of the progression isn’t A minor, it’s D minor.

and
be in the minor mode of D Dorian—D E F G A B C. Note that the D Dorian scale contains all the same notes as A Aeolian, all the same keys on the piano. The only difference is what key you start on.


Clearly this article was written by someone who needs to go back and study music theory properly...
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Mar 28, 2014,
#4
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Lol right
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#5
Quote by AngryHatter
Knowing how music works makes playing that much easier for me.

Then stop reading the link in the OP right now. MT would have a field day with the mistakes this guy was making.
#7
Lol the song's still shit. Music theory's gay too
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#10
The song isn't even in A minor. It's in B for shite's sake. That article is totally idiotic.

And I wouldn't call anything going on in that song genius by any stretch of the imagination, not even for pop music.

That said though, I really like the album; I bought it a month ago and I can't stop listening to it.
#11
The article sounds like it was written by a 14 year old who just verbatim copied "music theory" from a grade book.

The writer also comes across as an obnoxious prick and from what I read before throwing up in my mouth he doesn't exactly know what he's talking about even though he likes to think so.


Also there is really no point of try to analyze a song so repetitive and quite frankly a bit shit, so thanks but no thanks TS.
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#12
Quote by ProgFripp74
The article sounds like it was written by a 14 year old who just verbatim copied "music theory" from a grade book.

What REALLY bugs me is 1) he called the key of Aminor "the minor mode of A Aoelian" (btw, I don't even think the song is in Aminor), 2) his refusal to understand that the first chord in a progression is NOT always the tonic, and 3) his lack of understanding of modes in general. He also needs to study up on functional harmony.
#13
The whole article is off, yet in the comments section everyone is praising him. Is everyone on slate.com stupid?
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#14
I managed to read some of the article before my brain started to bleed from the stupidity.

He says its in "The minor mode of A Aeolian", then says its in D dorian, and then provides a musical example of it which is in A Major.

At the end, he then says its in F# Aeolian, and says that he uses the "White keys" and A Aeolian because of his casual readers. They won't fucking know A Aeolian if they're too casual to know F# Aeolian.

The song isn't even in A minor. It's in B for shite's sake.


Its in A major/F# minor according to the sheet music provided. I can't be bothered to check the resolution points but its most likely F# minor with a bunch of V-I chords.

I love the shit out of Daft-punk but if he wanted to analyze a song he could have picked a much better one to analyze.
#15
He did say that he transposed it to A for easier understanding because there'd be no sharps and flats.

Anyway, like Sam said, calling it Aeolian is a bit stupid and saying that a progression that starts with a different chord than the tonic evokes a mode is equally stupid.

Loved the bit where he said this song is unusual because it doesn't emphasise the word "good"
#16
Quote by Life Is Brutal


Its in A major/F# minor according to the sheet music provided. I can't be bothered to check the resolution points but its most likely F# minor with a bunch of V-I chords.


It's been established that the guy who wrote the article is an idiot. Probably transposed it to A minor because he couldn't handle two sharps. Then again though, if he knows how to transpose then that represents a small iota of knowledge.

Like i said before though, I have the album; listening to it as I type this.

I taught myself a couple of the songs off of it, including Get Lucky. I should've said that it's in B Dorian:

The chords are

Bm D F#m E x ad nauseum.

The G# in the E chord can be thought of as a natural 6 (or #6 depending on how you look at it) scale degree which is the characteristic note of Dorian.

Case closed.
Last edited by E7#9 at Mar 28, 2014,
#17
Quote by E7#9
It's been established that the guy who wrote the article is an idiot. Probably transposed it to A minor because he couldn't handle two sharps. Then again though, if he knows how to transpose then that represents a small iota of knowledge.

Like i said before though, I have the album; listening to it as I type this.

I taught myself a couple of the songs off of it, including Get Lucky. I should've said that it's in B Dorian:

The chords are

Bm D F#m E x ad nauseum.

The G# in the E chord can be thought of as a #6 scale degree which is the characteristic note of Dorian.

Case closed.
Yeah not really. If the tonic is B then it's just B minor with a borrowed IV.
#18
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Clearly this article was written by someone who needs to go back and study music theory properly...

At the end, he makes a note about how he simplified that section.

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#19
Quote by E7#9
It's been established that the guy who wrote the article is an idiot. Probably transposed it to A minor because he couldn't handle two sharps. Then again though, if he knows how to transpose then that represents a small iota of knowledge.

Like i said before though, I have the album; listening to it as I type this.

I taught myself a couple of the songs off of it, including Get Lucky. I should've said that it's in B Dorian:

The chords are

Bm D F#m E x ad nauseum.

What about those chords implies B Dorian? It's clearly a tonal song (NOT modal). Also, it sounds like it resolves on F#m to me, which makes it THE KEY OF F#MINOR.

The G# in the E chord can be thought of as a natural 6 (or #6 depending on how you look at it) scale degree which is the characteristic note of Dorian.

Or it can be thought of as the 2nd note of the F#minor key signature (aka Supertonic), which is what it is.


Why people insist on acting like every damn thing is modal is beyond me. It's like they don't get the basics of functional harmony.

Quote by sickman411
Yeah not really. If the tonic is B then it's just B minor with a borrowed IV.

It doesn't feel resolved at Bminor though. Play it on your chordal instrument of choice.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Mar 28, 2014,
#20
Quote by sickman411
Yeah not really. If the tonic is B then it's just B minor with a borrowed IV.


It can be interpreted a few ways...

You say B minor with a borrowed IV which turns makes a Dorian cadence...

I say it's straight up B Dorian.

We're saying the same thing really

Tomahto, tomayto.
#21
Quote by E7#9
It can be interpreted a few ways...

You say B minor with a borrowed IV which turns makes a Dorian cadence...

I say it's straight up B Dorian.

We're saying the same thing really

Tomahto, tomayto.

NO NO NO NO NO!

You're saying it's modal. He's saying it's not. That is most certainly NOT the same thing. Furthermore, there is NO WAY this is modal.


If it's modal, you'd better do a much better job of proving that to me than you have. It sure doesn't SOUND modal. It doesn't FEEL modal. It doesn't ACT modal. What about it is modal?
#22
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
What about those chords implies B Dorian? It's clearly a tonal song (NOT modal). Also, it sounds like it resolves on F#m to me, which makes it THE KEY OF F#MINOR.


The structure of the song implies that it's in B dorian. not F# minor. If it was in F# minor resolving to the tonic in the 3rd bar of the phrase is seriously messed up for a pop song.

I would argue that it is modal. Even if it was in F#, a tonal F# would need it's V chord to make it tonal. Which it doesn't.

The whole idea of tonality is predicated on the resolution from V-I-V-I-V-I-V-I-V-I-V-I- etc.

Neither the dominant of B minor or F# is there! Can you really say that?
#23
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
It doesn't feel resolved at Bminor though. Play it on your chordal instrument of choice.

That's why I said "if". I couldn't imagine the song properly because there was something else stuck in my head at the moment.

EDIT: ^Really? If there's no dominant, it's modal?
#24
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I stopped reading when I saw this:

and

and


Clearly this article was written by someone who needs to go back and study music theory properly...




There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#25
Quote by E7#9
The structure of the song implies that it's in B dorian. not F# minor. If it was in F# minor resolving to the tonic in the 3rd bar of the phrase is seriously messed up for a pop song.

Who cares if it's "messed up"? Theory doesn't care if something is "messed up" or "odd" or what genre it is. Neither should your ear, which is what you should be using to figure out the theory.

I would argue that it is modal. Even if it was in F#, a tonal F# would need it's V chord to make it tonal. Which it doesn't.

The whole idea of tonality is predicated on the resolution from V-I-V-I-V-I-V-I-V-I-V-I- etc. Neither the dominant of B minor or F# is there! Can you really say that?

No, that's not how it works. The V-I resolution is just a common resolution that is considered strong.


All that matter is that it RESOLVES to the tonic, and it resolves to F#minor. Which makes it the key of F#minor.

Quote by sickman411
That's why I said "if". I couldn't imagine the song properly because there was something else stuck in my head at the moment.

No worries.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Mar 28, 2014,
#27
Quote by sickman411
Yeah not really. If the tonic is B then it's just B minor with a borrowed IV.


Which is "Technically" B Dorian, which I would advocate it is if the progression goes F#Major to B minor while containing only the notes of B Dorian. If it uses any notes out of B Dorian, its not in B Dorian.

Why people insist on acting like every damn thing is modal is beyond me. It's like they don't get the basics of functional harmony.


Its so weird, a lot of it just over complicates things. Generally if something is in Major/Minor its smart to avoid calling it Ionian/Aeolian, and ending or resolving on a IV or V chord can be called different cadences, but that doesn't mean its Lydian or Mixolydian.
#28
Quote by Life Is Brutal
Which is "Technically" B Dorian, which I would advocate it is if the progression goes F#Major to B minor while containing only the notes of B Dorian. If it uses any notes out of B Dorian, its not in B Dorian.

Uhh what? If you use an F# major chord, you're using notes outside of B dorian.
#29
Sorry for the slow responses guys. My Internet crapping out right during a heated internet debate is a little annoying.

Perhaps there are things I'm taking for granted and I'm assuming we are on the same wave length on a few things.

That said though

Quote by sickman411
E7#9, assuming the song was in B, what would happen if, say, the E chord was followed by an Em chord?



the presence of the Em chord would imply that it's in B minor. But the E chord is no doubt borrowed from B Dorian... Nothing wrong with modal mixing.

Perhaps that sounds a bit contradictory. Damn.

Honestly though I don't mean to be a troll or anything nothing like a good ol' theory debate on an internet forum

Oh and to Sam I am using my ears; to my ears the song resolves on the B chord, hence B Dorian
#30
Quote by E7#9
the presence of the Em chord would imply that it's in B minor. But the E chord is no doubt borrowed from B Dorian... Nothing wrong with modal mixing.

Or maybe the E chord is just plain old VII in our F#minor key.

Oh and to Sam I am using my ears; to my ears the song resolves on the B chord, hence B Dorian
Play the progression and stop on Bminor. Does it feel like it needs to push to another chord? It should. There should be tension on that chord. There shouldn't be tension on the F#minor chord.

Edit:
Let's assume it was in B. (Doesn't feel like it to me, but whatever.) In B, the chords of this progression would be:
i - III - v - IV

It's fairly common to substitute a major chord for the iv. So, the Emajor would act, in that case, as a non-diatonic chord. Still nothing modal there.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Mar 28, 2014,
#31
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Or maybe the E chord is just plain old VII in our F#minor key.

Play the progression and stop on Bminor. Does it feel like it needs to push to another chord? It should. There should be tension on that chord. There shouldn't be tension on the F#minor chord.


I still think it resolves on the B though. My ears have been tuned over the years to accept this song as a stable [modal] progression for a song.

If it were in F# minor a III - i progression is a lame resolution. There's a one note difference between each chord. It hardly changes.

We should agree to disagree before it gets too far .
#33
Quote by E7#9
We should agree to disagree before it gets too far .

Too late. teehee.
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#34
I don't know what chords are named 90% of the time.
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#35
Quote by E7#9
But the E chord is no doubt borrowed from B Dorian... Nothing wrong with modal mixing.

Nothing wrong with modal mixing indeed but the E chord could just as easily be seen as borrowed from B major.
#36
Quote by lolmnt
I don't know what chords are named 90% of the time.

Well it can't hurt to introduce yourself. :3
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#37
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I want your thoughts on my edit though.


Fair enough here goes.

Assuming it is in B dorian...

For sake of clarity and bear with me because I know you know this but:

notes in B dorian: B C# D E F# G# A

notes in B aeolian/natural minor: B C# D E F# G A.

right? right.

We know that the G# is the only thing that makes B dorian different then B aeolian.

Chords of the song are again: Bm D F#m E [E G# B]

My thoughts on your edit is that the the mere presence of the G# makes it dorian. Everything to me makes it Dorian, including the form of the song which we were talking about earlier. The G# is a fricken smoking gun.

If E major is a borrowed chord, wouldn't it be simpler just to call it Dorian instead of "B minor with a borrowed IV?"

Also, if you were to improvise over the song, you wouldn't choose B aeolian as the G clashes with the G# of the E chord. F # aeolian would work but only because they share the same pitches. As would A major, D phrygian, etc.
Last edited by E7#9 at Mar 28, 2014,
#38
Quote by E7#9
Fair enough here goes.

Assuming it is in B dorian...

I said assuming it was in B -- not B dorian. I made no mention of "dorian". Big difference.

For sake of clarity and bear with me because I know you know this but:

notes in B dorian: B C# D E F# G# A

notes in B aeolian/natural minor: B C# D E F# G A.

right? right.

We know that the G# is the only thing that makes B dorian different then B aeolian.

Chords of the song are again: Bm D F#m E [E G# B]

My thoughts on your edit is that the the mere presence of the G# makes it dorian. Everything to me makes it Dorian, including the form of the song which we were talking about earlier. The G# is a fricken smoking gun.

It would be...if this was modal. But here's the major flaw. We don't just break down the notes of a progression and then go, "It fits X". Since the progression doesn't even act/feel/sound modal, that premise doesn't work.

If E major is a borrowed chord, wouldn't it be simpler just to call it Dorian instead of "B minor with a borrowed IV?"

No. Because we don't call it "Bminor with a borrowed IV". We call it "Bminor". Whether we use a non-diatonic chord or not, it doesn't change that it would be minor. That's how use of non-diatonic chords works.
Hell, I could have a progression with all borrowed chords, except for the tonic. And it wouldn't change its tonality from major or minor.

Question: have you ever studied non-diatonic chords? Because, you sound like you don't understand their use.


If you want to discuss this further, let's make a thread in Muscian's Talk. Otherwise, we've probably worn out our welcome in the Pit.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Mar 28, 2014,
#39
That article is a lot of wasted effort.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#40
Quote by crazysam23_Atax


Question: have you ever studied non-diatonic chords? Because, you sound like you don't understand their use.



Yes I have; but in a jazz context... studied jazz guitar at school for 3 years, with a bit of classical theory.

Perhaps I should've mentioned that earlier. Probably would've saved us a lot a pain
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