#1
Hi there so I can't find any info on this and was hoping some gurus could help. Under the bridge by RHCP is something im trying to figure out right now.

It starts out D-F# progression in the key of D and im assuming the F# is a secondary dominant of the vi chord in the key of D. He then goes to a E progression from I-V-vi-IV for the verse. Then goes key of F#m i think using F#m-E-Bmin which could some dorian thing? Then the last part he goes into A. But he goes Amaj-Amin-G-F which im not quite sure how to understand. Theres a quick 2 bar phrasing he does during this progression too where he has a weird chord which is a C with his pinky on the 12th fret of the e and b strings and switches roots from the C-B-D.

So yeah I hope someone knows what I'm talking about. There's a lot of key changes and theory behind this pop songs and if anyone can clarify that would be great.
#2
Quote by tyle12
But he goes Amaj-Amin-G-F which im not quite sure how to understand.


I'm pretty sure this part goes A - Fmaj7 - G - Fmaj7

Hope that helps.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#6
Yeah, but does it SOUND like that? That's what I'm getting at. Because I don't hear Aminor in there at 3:10.
#7
it does to me actually....I don't see how it could be anything else. The A-F-G-F suggestion sounds awful to me. Also when I watch him play that progression not only does it appear that he is playing major-minor, but when I play the progression maj-min thats what it sounds like hes doing aswell.

I am hoping someone can help me with what I originally wanted to find out which is mainly how the chords are structured in their key and how the transition of those keys happens. I guess I will specify to a greater extent.

1.)Is the first progression in D with a secondary dominant of the vi?
2.)The second progression is a I-V-vi-IV in E, correct?
3.)Is the third progression in F# minor or dorian?
4.)The last progression is in A maj (I am convinced this progression goes A-Amin-G-F unless someone can surely convince me otherwise) What do you call it when you go from the major to minor chord of the same tonic?
5.)What is that chord he throws in at 3:29?
6.) How do all the key changes go together? If it is what I think it looks like it starts in key of D, moves up a whole step to E, then I'm confused how it could transition to F#m..Dorian I can understand because it easily comes after E major. But if it is dorian, how does the Bmin fit in there? It should be major if its in dorian. Minor would make more sense becuase then the Bmin fits and the transition to A major for the next key is the parallel to F#m.

I appreciate anyone who can bear through my struggles and give me legitimate help in this endeavor. Aeolian wolf? I need you!!. Thanks everyone.
Last edited by tyle12 at Apr 2, 2014,
#8
I'll give you a clue. No modes. Cheers. Alan.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#9
The first progression is D F#.
F# is a III chord in D. D is the bVI in F#. I - III or bVI-I take your pick.

The second progression is |I V |vi V IV |I V |vi IV| in E. The V in that second bar there can be seen as a passing chord from vi on it's way to IV so effectively yes I V vi IV in E.

The third progression is F#m E B F#m - i bVII IV i This is an F#m up to an E and a cycle of fourths back to F#m. E to B is down a fourth root movement (in this case the inverse up a fifth but still the same principle) and B to F# is a down a fourth root movement.

The fourth progression is not A Am but I can see how you got that. He's going from A to an inversion of C major. The root movement is A C G F. There is an E note sounding on top of all those chords. Over the first two chords it's played on the fifth fret of the B string and then on the open E string over the G and F chords. This makes it an A C G6 FMaj7. The C is voiced in second inversion played G C E all at the fifth fret on the D G and B strings. (In the video it does look like he's playing Am instead of C and that works just fine. The chromatic line is still intact. You can play A on the seventh fret D string or G on the fifth fret D string. Or you can mix it up with some hammer ons pull offs or alternate between the two - whatever floats your boat.)

So the progression is A C/G G6 FMaj7. I bIII bVII bVI This is effectively an Am progression but switching out the minor tonic for it's parallel Major counterpart.

This create a "chromatic contradiction" as the C and C# appear in close proximity. This is called "false relations". This particular false relation - the mixing of a major and minor third in close proximity - is well established in rock as a direct influence from it's blues roots.

How to make sense of this...The C chord could be viewed as borrowed from the parallel minor, as too are the G6 and FMaj7. But naming something doesn't necessarily help us understand it. I find looking atwhat is happening with particular lines within the chords allows a truer understand of how it works.

So let's look at how the notes move in this progression...

The third in the A chord is C#. Obviously this drops by a half step to C in the C chord while the E remains static and the A drops down a whole step to G.

Going from C to G6 that C moves down another half step to B creating a chromatic run on those three notes C# - C - B.

The G from the C chord remains to become the root of the G chord.

The E does two things in this chord change. It drops down to D (third fret b string) but it also remains on E (now voiced on the open e string). It's like two notes have grown out of this single note.

From G6 to FMaj7 we see the B which was previously following a nice chromatic line now breaks that pattern by dropping down a whole step to A. So the line here is C# C B A.

The G and D also move down a whole step to F# and C respectively. The E remains as it has done throughout.

Note that the vocal melody "Oh no no no yeah yeah Love me i say yeah yeah" often follows this same chromatic descent C# C B A.

The F# to A is a very easy move as almost all the notes are already present. The E and A remain to make up the root and fifth of the A chord. The F# here is the root and goes to A. The C resolves up a half step to C#.

I bVI bVII is a common progression in rock. But it is a very simple progression with very little going on. All that happens is all the notes move down a whole step and then down again by another whole step. Here Frusciante takes that standard progression and makes it a little more interesting by using a bIII chord to smooth that transition from the I to the bVII chord.

Hope that helps.
Si
#10
I always learn something when I read 20Tigers posts. He points out things I hadn't thought of.

Anyway, yeah, A C/G G6 FMaj7 sounds correct to me. I knew the 2nd chord wasn't Aminor there, I just hadn't bothered to sit down and determine what it was. (Had no time for it, anyway, lol. Homework got in the way.)

So...you have the whole song analyzed right there, TS.
#11
Thank you 20tigers. I'm just wondering though in the first D-F# progression, the F#should be minor, but he's playing it major. If it were a bIII chord then it would be F not F#. This makes me believe its a secondary dominant of the vi (Bmin) chord in the key of D.

Minor change in the second progression he's actually going I-V-vi-iii-IV with the iii as the transition chord to IV.

The third progression I guess I had it wrong..it is a B and not a Bmin, correct? Which would effectively make that prog in the key of F#min.

Fourth progression I see how that works and it does sound correct to me, thanks for that.

So I guess in terms of key changes he's just going up a whole step for each change but the E-F#m key change he also changes it to a minor key...How does that work theoreticallly? I was told by in another thread the most common key changes are moving up/down a whole/half step (which is seen in the first key change of D-E), Moving to the original key's relative major/minor, changing the function of the original key (ex, originally in the key of C and changing the key to Cmin) or using a secondary dominant chord to transition to another key. In the E-F#m he goes up a whole step but also changes the function of major to minor. Is this common? The last key change goes F#m to A major which is going to the original key's relative major. Thanks again for your help.
#12
Quote by tyle12
Hi there so I can't find any info on this and was hoping some gurus could help. Under the bridge by RHCP is something im trying to figure out right now.

It starts out D-F# progression in the key of D and im assuming the F# is a secondary dominant of the vi chord in the key of D.


I would say the intro is in F#. |: bVI | I |bVI bVII| I :|


Quote by tyle12

He then goes to a E progression from I-V-vi-IV for the verse.


right


Quote by tyle12

Then goes key of F#m i think using F#m-E-Bmin which could some dorian thing? Then the last part he goes into A.


Yeah, F#m. chords are |:F#m E | B F#m :| i VII IV i

the melody is pentatonic.

had he sang a melody that adhered to the F# dorian scale then you could think of it as a "dorian thing".


Quote by tyle12


But he goes Amaj-Amin-G-F which im not quite sure how to understand.



It's a typical A minor progression but with the Major I (borrowed from A Major) thrown in for half a bar.


Quote by tyle12

Theres a quick 2 bar phrasing he does during this progression too where he has a weird chord which is a C with his pinky on the 12th fret of the e and b strings and switches roots from the C-B-D.



Fmaj7 (VI) to E7 (V) in Am
#13
Quote by tyle12
Thank you 20tigers. I'm just wondering though in the first D-F# progression, the F#should be minor, but he's playing it major. If it were a bIII chord then it would be F not F#. This makes me believe its a secondary dominant of the vi (Bmin) chord in the key of D.

Minor change in the second progression he's actually going I-V-vi-iii-IV with the iii as the transition chord to IV.

The third progression I guess I had it wrong..it is a B and not a Bmin, correct? Which would effectively make that prog in the key of F#min.

Fourth progression I see how that works and it does sound correct to me, thanks for that.

So I guess in terms of key changes he's just going up a whole step for each change but the E-F#m key change he also changes it to a minor key...How does that work theoreticallly? I was told by in another thread the most common key changes are moving up/down a whole/half step (which is seen in the first key change of D-E), Moving to the original key's relative major/minor, changing the function of the original key (ex, originally in the key of C and changing the key to Cmin) or using a secondary dominant chord to transition to another key. In the E-F#m he goes up a whole step but also changes the function of major to minor. Is this common? The last key change goes F#m to A major which is going to the original key's relative major. Thanks again for your help.


There are a lot of common destination keys in a key change.

One that you didn't list there were "closely related keys". Closely related keys are keys that share a lot of common tones. The relative major/minor is obviously the most closely related keys. The key based on the dominant and subdominant of the original key are both closely related keys with each having only one note difference.

In the 50s the key change to the sub dominant in particular was extremely common specifically in the bridge. It is still a very common key change destination.

E to A would be an example of a key change to the subdominant. The diatonic notes of E being E F# G# A B C# D# E while the notes diatonic to A major are A B C# D E F# G# A. Note the only difference is the D note.

As the relative major/minor keys share all the same notes with each other. By that logic then the relative minor of the dominant or subdominant are also closely related to the original key with just one note difference.

F#m is the relative minor of A and so also closely related to E.

This is one of the few things the circle of fifths is useful for, using it like a "colour wheel" to see closely related keys...note below how the E and F#m keys are neighbouring keys on the circle of fifths.
Si
#14
Quote by tyle12

at 3:10 it looks like he's going A major-A minor-G-F.
I would hate for this thread to get any more off track.
There are much grander things happening here I would please like some help.
Sticking to just the part @3:10, don't forget to add the open strings...
not sure if you already knew, just thort i'd give it a mention.

Call the chords what you will... (I didn't want to get into it), but I will say... if you listen,
Frusciante is definately voicing the A-G-F notes in the Bass (Thick E String).
just saying!

       A         G         F    
e |-(0)-(0)-|-(0)-(0)-|-(0)-(0)-|
B |--5---5--|--0---3--|--0---1--|
G |--6---5--|--4---4--|--2---2--|
D |--7---[color="Red"]7[/COLOR]--|--5---5--|--3---3--|
A |--7---7--|--5---5--|--3---3--|
E |--5---5--|--3---3--|--1---1--|
Edit: Oops 7 should be 5, yep 20Tigers has it! (nice analogy BTW!)
Last edited by tonibet72 at Apr 3, 2014,
#15
Thanks again 20tigers. The more theory I learn it seems the less necessary it is because you can almost do anything and there would be some sort of theoretical analysis of it...I'm thankful I learned as much as I did, but where would I be if I had spent that time on ear training instead? Oh well I guess I'll spend the next year training my ear like I have theory.
#16
Yes there is a theoretical analysis of anything you can do. That doesn't mean that anything will sound good. When you recognize something that sounds good and you have enough theory knowledge to analyse and understand it you can use that in contexts other than those you originally found it in.

For example seeing the chord change A - Am - G one might think "oh that sounds cool" and start using the a I i bVII chord change in different ways in their own progressions. When you can understand "why" it works in regard to the voice leading then you can pick it apart and instead of just imitating the original chord progression you can start to look for other ways to use a chromatic descending line.

Similarly coming across a key change like that E to F#m key change might be cool, and you might start to use similar key changes in your own music. But understanding that they are closely related keys and what effect is created when switching to closely related keys opens up more doors than just straight copying. You realize that from E you can go to five different destinations that are closely related (C#m; A major; F#minor; B Major; D minor) and if you wanted the effect of a more distantly related key change you know you could go to Bb or Gm.

Having enough understanding of theory knowledge allows you to really drill down and think about music in different ways. This can lead to new and innovative approaches that you might not otherwise have thought about.

Having said that a good ear is the most valuable asset you can have as a music lover. Music theory is very useful but ultimately optional, you can get away without it. A good ear is essential. It shouldn't be an either/or thing but if it is; if you have limited time in which you can either work on your ear or study theory....work on your ear.
Si