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#1
Hi i want to learn all the shapes for the Aeolian mode, I cannot find a page that has all of them I am hoping for 5 of them, dont tell me to learn the notes and the formula for the scale please, i learn the way i do, plz help, thanks
#2
Why would you bother with learning the shape? That's not learning the minor scale.

Also, no real reason to call it Aeolian mode, since it's the minor scale. (You probably shouldn't be focusing on modes, unless you somehow managed to learn everything suggested to you in this thread from a month ago...in less than a month. And I doubt that.) Note that modes are NOT scales. So, here's a lesson about the minor scale:
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/22

That lesson actually covers all 3 minor scales, but the one you should pay attention to the most is the "natural minor scale". The other two minor scales are not used very often in today's music, so when most people say "the minor scale"...just remember that they probably mean "the natural minor scale".

If you can't read music, that site has a section in lessons called "the basics". Just remove the "/22" part and hit enter.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Apr 8, 2014,
#5
how in the world is playing the exact shape of a scale, NOT playing a scale, what kind of sense is that?
#6
Quote by merks7
can any one that is not a douche bag answer my question please


crazysam just did.

If there's one thing I've learned in my 7-8 years in this forum, it's that the people in it know what they're talking about, even if the answer pisses you off because it turns out to not be as simple as you wanted it to be.

Memorizing the scale shapes will not teach you anything musical. Knowing the intervals of the scale and why they sound the way they do and using that knowledge to play wherever you want will.
#8
Quote by merks7
how in the world is playing the exact shape of a scale, NOT playing a scale, what kind of sense is that?
I did not say that. I said:

Quote by me
Why would you bother with learning the shape? That's not learning the minor scale.


The key word there is learning. What I'm trying to get at is that all you will learn by getting a picture of the 5 positions of the minor scale is the positions. You won't really know what to do with the scale, how the scale works, when to use the scale, etc. You can't just drill the scale positions and think you know the scale. You don't learn the scale that way.


You obviously didn't like my answer, so you resorted to calling me a douchebag here and telling me on my personal profile (for the 2nd time so far) that I'm an asshole. Your loss.


Edit:
Quote by SuperKid
play the red notes in this image in the first post and you'll be super amazing https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1639701

Guaranteed win

Stop trolling. You're not funny.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Apr 8, 2014,
#11
What crazy sam said in his first post. And it would help if you an relate the minor scale to the Major (ie. Flat 3rd, 6th and 7th). If you can get used twn that, then studying 'modes' later will be a lot simpler than memorizing patterns.
#14
The longer you spend in MT, the more likely someone is going to call you a douche on your wall. Seems to come with the territory unfortunately.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#15
This is a troll thread. It must be. I hope so.
"I agree with Matthew about everything" - Everyone
#16
Quote by merks7
how in the world is playing the exact shape of a scale, NOT playing a scale, what kind of sense is that?


It isn't. But a mode isn't just a scale.

Listen. I'm not sure you're bright enough to learn music, so just Google "Aeolian mode" and look at the nice fretboard shapes that come up.
#17
Quote by merks7
how in the world is playing the exact shape of a scale, NOT playing a scale, what kind of sense is that?


The funny thing, of course, is that if you hadn't just been a total jerk, people would probably be eager to answer this question.

I know I would be.
#19
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
In hindsight, being called a hedgehog is pretty funny.


i nearly fell off my chair

to be fair, i think if you got rid of the beard you wouldn't look anything like one

Quote by AlanHB
The longer you spend in MT, the more likely someone is going to call you a douche on your wall. Seems to come with the territory unfortunately.


maybe. you always get the odd dick who won't be happy nomatter how nice you are, but we tell people stuff they don't want to hear all the time in the gear forums too and I would suspect most of us in those forums haven't got abusive messages on our walls either.

I think 20Tigers mentioned this the other day in a thread, where some people are almost scared to post anything in case they get jumped on. I haven't hung out in here anywhere near as long as you guys have, but I've held back on posting things too in case I got jumped on (a cynic might say I don't hold back enough you guys know way more than I do about theory, that goes without saying).

I'm not saying you should let people post incorrect stuff without correcting it, because of course you shouldn't (and we don't allow that in the gear forums either), but you can tell people they're wrong in such a way that it looks like you're trying to help (in which case most reasonable people will appreciate that you're genuinely trying to help) or in such a way that it looks like you're trying to make them look stupid (which gets most reasonable people's backs up).

I think I'm fairly familiar with how guitar forums work now, and I should clarify that I think you guys are genuinely trying to help (and I've learnt a lot in the little time I've hung out here, including several things which always bothered me for years and which didn't quite make sense)- it's more in the way that you come across.

It's sometimes hard to realise how other people see you (and I'm as guilty of this as anyone, I dare say some of my posts, taken in isolation, could come in for similar criticism )- regulars in a forum will realise that the same question comes up every day, and will also realise if a regular posts a snarky comment once in a blue moon that they're helpful 99% of the time and will cut them some slack. But to someone who's only posted once in the forum who only sees that one post, they get the impression that the forum is cliquey and arrogant. It's like when you go into a shop and the assistant is rude to you- maybe the last 15 customers were dicks, but you didn't see that, plus even if that were true the assistant should still treat you with respect since the previous 15 customers weren't your fault.

I guess what I'm saying that if it appears a slightly scary forum to post in, even to someone like me who's used to forums and who's willing to give you the benefit of the doubt...
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#20
^^^ Interesting points. Do you think the snarky comments of the regular users in this thread prompted merks7's spamming?

I think its more likely that there's a lot of telling people that they're wrong in MT. It's hard to sugarcoat telling someone they're wrong, and some people will react negatively.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#21
Thanks I wasn't sure whether I should post that or not

I was making more general points. I haven't really been around here long enough to know the backstory of this specific case, and merks7 may well qualify for the "dick" section I didn't see anything much wrong with crazysam23_Atax's original reply in this thread, for example (though the backstory of TS's previous threads might also explain why he went off on one so quickly and with so little provocation ).

I know what you mean about the sugarcoating thing- as I said, we do get some dicks in the gear forums too and it wouldn't matter how you replied to them (admittedly they're normally easier to spot since they tend to do more overt trolling). On the other hand, as I said, you can definitely reply in a way which is more or less likely to offend.

So yeah, I dunno. Maybe I react negatively to being told I'm wrong, that's always a possibility too I just thought it was worth mentioning, that's all. As I said, I read 20Tigers' post yesterday, and decided against posting, but when a similar thing came up today I figured it was worth bringing up.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#22
I think you can reply in a fashion that is less likely to offend, but some people will take offence if you question what they have strongly believed for a couple of years.

Interestingly most of the anti comments I've scored on my wall or in my mailbox are as a direct result of comments I have posted on the lesson articles regarding modes.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#23
Quote by AlanHB
(a) I think you can reply in a fashion that is less likely to offend, but some people will take offence if you question what they have strongly believed for a couple of years.

(b) Interestingly most of the anti comments I've scored on my wall or in my mailbox are as a direct result of comments I have posted on the lesson articles regarding modes.


(a) agreed.

(b) that is pretty funny. is that from the people writing the lessons or from people replying to those lessons?
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#24
Quote by merks7
Hi i want to learn all the shapes for the Aeolian mode, I cannot find a page that has all of them I am hoping for 5 of them, dont tell me to learn the notes and the formula for the scale please, i learn the way i do, plz help, thanks

Albeit merks DID "Flip It" a little overboard and a little too early (A LITTLE?!!! I hear you some of you say...)
yeah yeah I know i've read the thread... and wall... please bear with me.

Not ignoring the fact that people were trying to help, I think sometimes when people post for help (and regardless of OUR OWN point of view to things they might have written) they would just appreciate if people who reply would just stick to what it is they are asking, without another music lesson on what's correct and what's not (in their own opinion)...

In all fairness if you re-read merks' initial post carefully (quoted above), he does clearly state what he asking for help with and even goes so far as to mention that he doesn't need a lesson in theory at this stage (who are we to say WHY or WHAT he may need the 5 shapes for?), it may be for something that he wasn't prepared to share at this time.

Who here hasn't posted something asking for advice specific to them, and try to word their post in such a manner that hopefully might eliminate alot of unwanted mostly unrelated noise/opinion/lessons/education/competition/dick measuring contests etc etc...

even amongst it all... one person (IMO) at this thread seemed to have read Ts' request and replied accordingly without any unnecessary questioning... "BIG Props to ya mate, always the professional"

NB: (no offense Sam I know your were only trying to be helpful!)

Flippin 'eck!
Last edited by tonibet72 at Apr 10, 2014,
#26
Quote by tonibet72
Albeit merks DID "Flip It" a little overboard and a little too early (A LITTLE?!!! I hear you some of you say...)
yeah yeah I know i've read the thread... and wall... please bear with me.

Not ignoring the fact that people were trying to help, I think sometimes when people post for help (and regardless of OUR OWN point of view to things they might have written) they would just appreciate if people who reply would just stick to what it is they are asking, without another music lesson on what's correct and what's not (in their own opinion)...

In all fairness if you re-read merks' initial post carefully (quoted above), he does clearly state what he asking for help with and even goes so far as to mention that he doesn't need a lesson in theory at this stage (who are we to say WHY or WHAT he may need the 5 shapes for?), it may be for something that he wasn't prepared to share at this time.

Who here hasn't posted something asking for advice specific to them, and try to word their post in such a manner that hopefully might eliminate alot of unwanted mostly unrelated noise/opinion/lessons/education/competition/dick measuring contests etc etc...

even amongst it all... one person (IMO) at this thread seemed to have read Ts' request and replied accordingly without any unnecessary questioning... "BIG Props to ya mate, always the professional"

NB: (no offense Sam I know your were only trying to be helpful!)

Flippin 'eck!

You don't know merks7 do you?

I've seen him post stuff like "**** you asshole" to at least 4-5 people on UG. It doesn't matter what you tell this guy or how friendly you are. If you say something he doesn't like(even if it is the truth/answer to his question), he will call you an "ass hole".
#27
Quote by Dave_Mc
(b) that is pretty funny. is that from the people writing the lessons or from people replying to those lessons?


Always the guys also commenting. They are also never regulars of MT. Check out pretty much any lesson that references modes in the last couple of years. I have a lot of "fans" in the comments.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#28
Quote by AlanHB
Check out pretty much any lesson that references modes in the last couple of years. I have a lot of "fans" in the comments.


I may be new to these forums, but holy nitpicking batman! Since when did MT become the temple of syrinx? Nobody's ever allowed to talk about modes because there's a sticky with a couple links? No one on a guitar forum should be allowed to like Steve Vai because OMG "Lydian" should just be called "a major scale with an augmented 4th" for simplicity's sake?

All we're accomplishing here is establishing that major and minor should suffice for everyone. We might as well pick on people who ask about minor scales in this music theory forum because, really, it's all the same as major. Why have two names for one scale? That's so confusing and silly. While we're at it, why don't we argue about when breakfast time ends and brunch begins? Either way, you're eating pancakes and it's delicious.

Major/Minor people will probably never see eye to eye with Ionian/Aeolian people, but that doesn't make either side wrong. I hope all you alleged "music theory" guys like 3-chord songs, radio rock, and the pentatonic scale because from what I can tell on these forums, it sounds like that's all you're going to be playing.
#29
Major and minor aren't the same though. They function differently.
Major and minor KEYS suffice for almost all western music. I dont care about scales much.
Chord tones, non chord tones and chromaticism cover just about everything.

Tell Bach and Charlie Parker how they were only generic radio rock musicians because they only used major and minor keys, chord tones and chromaticism.
Last edited by Duaneclapdrix at Apr 10, 2014,
#30
Quote by Duaneclapdrix
Tell Bach and Charlie Parker how they were only generic radio rock musicians because they only used major and minor keys, chord tones and chromaticism.



Bach used more than major and minor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDN4uznAtv0 These harmonies are Phrygian.

Being a guitar forum, I'm surprised you're using Bach to debate Steve Vai's use of Lydian though.
#31
Quote by AlanHB
Always the guys also commenting. They are also never regulars of MT. Check out pretty much any lesson that references modes in the last couple of years. I have a lot of "fans" in the comments.




yeah that's kind of one of the problems of UG- the forums and lessons (and also reviews, though that applies more to the gear forums than here) are sort of separate.

i've never written any lessons, I stick to the forums. I wrote a couple of reviews way back in the day when UG wanted more to be written, but I've kind of disowned them. if you could self-delete them I would, but i've never got a straight answer on whether the admins will delete them if you ask so I just gave up.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#32
I find the amount of fear mongering about modes to be rather funny. The modes of the major scale are very simple. They are a great way to really learn the major scale inside and out, learn about intervals and the sounds they create, and they provide an excellent framework for composing and improvising.

It's just putting names to sounds. Sometimes the sound of a song can be well described with a mode - Blind Melon - No Rain = mixolydian, So what Miles = Dorian, Santana Oye Como va = dorian , Flying in a Blue Dream Satriani - Lydian etc.. Other times, the modes don't really provide a useful point of reference at all.

Before everyone here starts obsessing over whether those progressions are "modal" or not - that's not my point. My point is - there is no better way, imho, to summarize the feel of those melodies. As a lead player or songwriter, it helps to know how to evoke different feels. Whatever concepts help you get there are useful.

Most young players inquiring about this stuff want to learn how to jam over riffs and songs. In that context, the modes are very useful and its an easy way to get started. The modes probably don't help much with learning a Bach Fugue or with ripping through Giant Steps, but that isn't to say that they aren't useful in other contexts.
#33
Quote by cjohnson122989
Bach used more than major and minor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDN4uznAtv0 These harmonies are Phrygian.

Being a guitar forum, I'm surprised you're using Bach to debate Steve Vai's use of Lydian though.


Bach wrote that piece in the style of pre baroque composers. That's not a good example of what I was talking about.
You implied that our views about modes limit us and make us like "boring radio rock and 3 chord songs". I said that almost all western music since the time of bach has used Major/ minor keys and it's certainly been more interesting than "3 chord radio rock".
Modes don't make music better or more creative. Most of the time it seems that's what guitarists try to use them for. They talk about adding "flavor" and "spice" so much you'd think they were chefs.
#34
Quote by reverb66
I find the amount of fear mongering about modes to be rather funny. The modes of the major scale are very simple. They are a great way to really learn the major scale inside and out, learn about intervals and the sounds they create, and they provide an excellent framework for composing and improvising.


I don't think there's fear mongering of modes going on. Most people here say learn about x, y and z before going to modes because you have to learn x, y and z before you can understand modes.

Unfortunately an increasing amount of users don't get a firm grasp on keys before moving to modes, and then assume that everything is in a mode. The modes may be "simple" in some respects but there is a whole heap of knowledge that you have to possess to understand how to use them.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#35
Quote by cjohnson122989
I may be new to these forums, but holy nitpicking batman! Since when did MT become the temple of syrinx? Nobody's ever allowed to talk about modes because there's a sticky with a couple links? No one on a guitar forum should be allowed to like Steve Vai because OMG "Lydian" should just be called "a major scale with an augmented 4th" for simplicity's sake?

The difference is, Steve Vai actually plays the Lydian mode. He doesn't play a major scale with an augmented 4th. It is the Lydian mode. He is very good at writing modal songs, when he wants to. (He also writes a lot of songs that are strictly tonal [major or minor]. )


Major/Minor people will probably never see eye to eye with Ionian/Aeolian people, but that doesn't make either side wrong.

Except...calling it Ionian/Aoelian is stupid 90% of the time, since 90% of the time...it isn't functioning modally. 90% of the time, when people use the terms Ionian or Aoelian, they think they're doing something really, really modal. And then, musicians listen to their music and go, "Um...what's modal about this?"

If you can come up with a concrete example of music, composed after the early 1800s, that used the Ionian mode or the Aoelian mode, please share it. By the 1800s, composers weren't really into the modes, because major/minor allowed more freedom, generally.

I hope all you alleged "music theory" guys like 3-chord songs, radio rock, and the pentatonic scale because from what I can tell on these forums, it sounds like that's all you're going to be playing.
Yes...because that's all the guys from the 1800s and onward ever played.

As a modern example, the majority of metal songs tend to be in a minor key. And I don't think a lot of metalheads would take you seriously if you were ignorant to believe that most metal is only 3-chords. (That's not to say that a lot of metal isn't simplistic, just that there's enough metal that isn't simplistic to balance things out.)
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Apr 10, 2014,
#36
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
The difference is, Steve Vai actually plays the Lydian mode. He doesn't play a major scale with an augmented 4th. It is the Lydian mode.


Would anyone on this site care to explain once and for all why a major scale with an augmented 4th is not the Lydian mode? (Are we assuming the backing chord has the same root note?) If I'm playing/improvising/learning a song, is the difference really worth all these arguments about modes as long as I know the chord progression?


Quote by crazysam23_Atax
If you can come up with a concrete example of music, composed after the early 1800s, that used the Ionian mode or the Aoelian mode, please share it.


I have a feeling we're talking about two different things. I've been talking about specific instances in a song where a "major scale with accidentals" is played over a chord. It sounds like everyone else is talking about a song having a chord progression in some specific mode.
#37
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Except...calling it Ionian/Aoelian is stupid 90% of the time, since 90% of the time...it isn't functioning modally. 90% of the time, when people use the terms Ionian or Aoelian, they think they're doing something really, really modal. And then, musicians listen to their music and go, "Um...what's modal about this?"

If you can come up with a concrete example of music, composed after the early 1800s, that used the Ionian mode or the Aoelian mode, please share it. By the 1800s, composers weren't really into the modes, because major/minor allowed more freedom, generally.

What exactly does it mean to "function modally"? Please be as clear and concise as possible.

Ionian is Major. It's a waste of time using the term Ionian because we are much more familiar with the term Major.
Si
#38
Quote by 20Tigers
What exactly does it mean to "function modally"? Please be as clear and concise as possible.

That line was mostly me being facetious. Sorry.

Ionian is Major. It's a waste of time using the term Ionian because we are much more familiar with the term Major.

Yeah. It also could be argued that calling something "Ionian" is simply trying to make something modal just for the sake of making it modal. It's useless, imho.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Apr 10, 2014,
#39
Quote by cjohnson122989
I have a feeling we're talking about two different things. I've been talking about specific instances in a song where a "major scale with accidentals" is played over a chord. It sounds like everyone else is talking about a song having a chord progression in some specific mode.


I get what you're saying, but your version of modes is:

Quote by cjohnson122989
It makes sense for guitar players especially to learn the 7 modes because we can take one scale shape and play it starting on any fret. Learn all seven modes (it's just one scale shape starting at 7 different points), and you can play any scale in any mode in any key.

Originally posted here https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?p=32544783


And that introduces a third thing, that modes are the names given to 3nps patterns. These are NOT the major or minor scale with accidentals, because there's no accidentals.

So to have this argument we'd really have to get on the same page as to what exactly a mode is.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#40
Quote by AlanHB
And that introduces a third thing, that modes are the names given to 3nps patterns. These are NOT the major or minor scale with accidentals, because there's no accidentals.


You're still hung up about that every mode of every scale in any key thing? K. Apparently, giving on-topic advice to a forum post makes me a beginner as well (we've all been there).

And did I ever say that modes are simply the names of the 3nps patterns? I've gone off quite a bit about intervals and relations to the major scale in just the past couple days in these forums. I don't think it's fair to assume that I have no idea what notes I'm playing.

Personally, I like the 3nps method because there's a really great pattern that spans across 7 strings. Say what you want, but I'm comfortable recognizing the major scale at any point based on knowing the intervals of all seven modes.
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