#1
I'm stuck on a riff that can't seem to end right. If I add half a note it throws the whole pacing off. Any idea what's wrong?

I think I may have to start with a 5/4 rather than configuring a 4/4 to fit 5/4. But even then, I just can't think of 5/4 riffs for some reason.
I really wanna remedy this. Any tips?
#2
Do a compound time, like 9/4.
One...and...two...and...three...and...four...and...one...and...two...and...three...and...four...and...five.
#3
Why are you writing in 5/4? Stop being a wanker. You decided on the timesig before yeu wrote the riff. Thats stupid. Start again.
Last edited by innovine at Apr 9, 2014,
#4
Quote by innovine
Why are you writing in 5/4? Stop being a wanker. You decided on the timesig before yeu wrote the riff. Thats stupid. Start again.

For the sage of being PROG of course!!!!1

On a more serious note, maybe he just wants to experiment/practice using a time signature other than 4/4 (or 3/4). I don't see anything wrong with that even if it doesn't come naturally.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Apr 9, 2014,
#5
Subdividing it into groups of 3 and 2 (1, 2, 3, 1, 2) or 2 and 3 (1, 2, 1, 2, 3) usually helps in making it feel more musical.

Why are you writing in 5/4?


Why are you writing in any time signature?
.
#6
Quote by Phazon
I'm stuck on a riff that can't seem to end right. If I add half a note it throws the whole pacing off. Any idea what's wrong?

I think I may have to start with a 5/4 rather than configuring a 4/4 to fit 5/4. But even then, I just can't think of 5/4 riffs for some reason.
I really wanna remedy this. Any tips?


Hi Phazon, i'm having trouble understanding exactly what you are asking so please don't take my post the wrong way... it's just a kind of thinking aloud process if you will, and so not meant to come off as offensive...

I'm stuck on a riff that can't seem to end right.
(here I am expecting a link or something to listen to coming up)

If I add half a note it throws the whole pacing off.
(hmm... where abouts in the riff might you be refering too?... at this stage i'm guessing yr probably adding the "half a note" to the end of the riff, resulting in a kind of incomplete 5/4 beat?)

Any idea what's wrong?
(is it possible could you post an example) ie: 1 (& 2 (& 3 (& 4 (& 5 (?)
(which seems to be the closest guess to your issue, that I can come up with so far???)
Basically you just need to add the extra (& after the 5... could you just be missing the (?) beat...?


I think I may have to start with a 5/4 rather than configuring a 4/4 to fit 5/4.
(yeah okay i'm a bit lost now... because yr "thread title" wants to "make 5/4 flow the right way"... not getting 4/4 into fit into 5/4... yeah... I think I might need an example of what you mean exactly)

But even then, I just can't think of 5/4 riffs for some reason.
Well... 5/4 can be counted out a number of ways:

1. by just counting to 5 for example.
(but i'm guessing yr wanting the half values in there)

2. then maybe count twice as fast... to get the half notes in there...
(but count to 10 instead, or count out 2 sets of 5's).


I really wanna remedy this. Any tips?
(here's a few 5/4 ideas that maybe of help... maybe?)

[B][color="Blue"]1__   2__   3__   4__   5__[/COLOR][/B]   |


1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 |
[B][color="Blue"]1__&[/COLOR][/B]  2__&  [B][color="Blue"]3__&[/COLOR][/B]  4__&  [B][color="Blue"]5__&[/COLOR][/B]  |


1  2  3  4  5  [B][color="Blue"]1 _2 _3 _4 _5 _[/COLOR][/B]|


1  2  [B][color="Blue"]1__2__3[/COLOR][/B]  1  2  [B][color="Blue"]1__2__3[/COLOR][/B]  |


1  2  [B][color="Blue"]3__4__5[/COLOR][/B]  1  2  3  [B][color="Blue"]4__5[/COLOR][/B]  |


1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 |
[B][color="Blue"]1_2_3[/COLOR][/B] 1 2 3 [B][color="Blue"]1_2_3[/COLOR][/B] 1 2 3 [B][color="Blue"]1_2_3[/COLOR][/B] |
Last edited by tonibet72 at Apr 9, 2014,
#7
Quote by innovine
Why are you writing in 5/4? Stop being a wanker. You decided on the timesig before yeu wrote the riff. Thats stupid. Start again.


20tigers gave me a warning for the above, saying that it is flaming. I disagree, I think it is full of useful advice.
#8
The point of having an odd meter is to not flow.

It's meant to sound a bit chased and deceptive.

But you should group it in 2 groups. Groups of 3 beats and 2 beats. Music is always said to be divided into groups of 2 beats and 3 beats. So you could either do ONE two THREE four five... or you could do ONE two three FOUR five.
#9
Quote by innovine
20tigers gave me a warning for the above, saying that it is flaming. I disagree, I think it is full of useful advice.

Sure it might be, but you said it in an unnecessarily offensive manner.
#10
Quote by liampje
The point of having an odd meter is to not flow.

It's meant to sound a bit chased and deceptive.

But you should group it in 2 groups. Groups of 3 beats and 2 beats. Music is always said to be divided into groups of 2 beats and 3 beats. So you could either do ONE two THREE four five... or you could do ONE two three FOUR five.

Wrong. There are lots of odd time signature songs that don't sound odd at all. I think the best odd time signature songs are those that don't sound strange. For example Money by Pink Floyd doesn't really sound odd at all (7/4). Listen to some Soundgarden. They use lots of odd time signatures but I bet they didn't know they were odd time signatures (ie, they came naturally) and that's what gives the songs a great flow. Let it happen if it happens. Sometimes you just write in an odd time signature without noticing it.

Mission Impossible is the best example of a rhythm that works for 5/4. The rhythm is 3+3+2+2 (two long beats, two short beats). You don't even count it to five, you count it to four. The same rhythm is also in Take 5.
Quote by AlanHB
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#12
Quote by innovine
Why are you writing in 5/4? Stop being a wanker. You decided on the timesig before yeu wrote the riff. Thats stupid. Start again.

maybe hes new to odd time signatures. if you want to get good with them, you kinda have to practice in them at first

i sometimes naturally write in odd time signatures. but of course at first i had to purposely practice in them at first
#13
Quote by Elintasokas
This is a good example of a 5/4 that doesn't even sound weird at all. I didn't even realize it's 5/4 until I saw the sheet music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btHMMDz27hw

Yeah, again the same rhythm as in Mission Impossible (3+3+2+2). It seems to be the rhythm with the most flow in 5/4.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#14
You can't be writing 5/4 under the pretense that it's the same as writing in 4/4 with another beat at the end. Trust me I've tried that and it doesn't work well. It's a feel thing, the melody in your head should be in 5/4 to begin with, if it's not, then you shouldn't force it. About a year into playing guitar, before I even knew what time signatures were, I accidentally wrote a phrase in 5/4 followed by a bar of 4/4 (9/4 for simplicity's sake), and it worked because that's what naturally came out.
But say you really want to write in that time signature, try getting used to the feel of 5/4 to begin with. I recommend listening to fives by Guthrie Govan, the whole thing is in 5/4 and it flows really well. Writing in odd time sigs also takes longer, as you have to think about it more, it took me a couple of days to write a riff in 9/8.
#15
I just came in to say that people who want to learn to write in a different signature well are doing good work in actively trying out random stuff in odd meters.

"needs to flow naturally"

I agree 100%, but everything you learn starts out slow and "unnatural".. as in the way you learn is never the end result.

Ie. Learning another language by constant repetition (Rote learning) is what's done all across the world, and does not result (for the most part) in unnatural speaking, yet it's also a "forced" method.

And there are many other things that are repetitively forced, before someone can do it naturally.

Please have more trust in people's ability to be able to learn to adapt things they learn in a more admirable end product.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Apr 14, 2014,
#16
That Final Fantasy track is technically in 10/8, with three compound and two simple beats.

5/4 is very similar to 4/4. One, two, three, four, five... one, two, three, four.

Without knowing the music you're writing, I'm assuming you're writing in 4/4, but have some sort of accent on the '1' and '3' beats of your music, as in 'one two three four'.

If that's the case, don't try to force 5/4 on music specifically written in 4/4. You have a very strong pulse in a strong 4/4 rhythm, and adding an extra beat will sound off because you're breaking that rhythm. You will need to write something that utilises some sort of pulse, whether it's 'one two three four five' or something else, something that actually has rhythm, something that's expected.

If all else fails, there's this track from Sonic CD that has three sections: 5/4, 4/4, and 7/4. Each section uses a simple beat on each quaver. Only when I bothered to listen did I realise just how effectively it uses 5/4 and 7/4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqhZhqQJHkg
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#17
^ If you are in 4/4, it doesn't mean the rhythm needs to be just straight one two three four. For example a basic rock rhythm is 3+3+3+3+2+2 (used by AC/DC and many other bands). It's still in 4/4. 4/4 only means that the bar length is four quarter notes. So 5/4 doesn't necessarily go like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It can also go like 3+3+2+2. The time signature doesn't tell about the rhythm. But I agree that 4/4 with an added beat in the end is not going to have the flow. It will sound like 4/4 with an added beat. You need to come up with a good rhythm to make 5/4 flow.

Also the accented beats in popular music are usually 2 and 4 (the beats snare drum usually plays), not 1 and 3. If you clap your hands to the music, it feels a lot more natural to clap on 2 and 4, not on 1 and 3.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#18
Quote by Dayn
If that's the case, don't try to force 5/4 on music specifically written in 4/4. You have a very strong pulse in a strong 4/4 rhythm, and adding an extra beat will sound off because you're breaking that rhythm. You will need to write something that utilises some sort of pulse, whether it's 'one two three four five' or something else, something that actually has rhythm, something that's expected.


This pretty much cleared up odd time signatures for me, thanks. :p
#19
5/4 pretty much always flows for me, I use it unintentionally quite a lot in acoustic jams, I mean you could count 10 or just 5 but if your having trouble with the time signature I can only recommend learning some songs that use it extensively or learn it as 10/8 instead as was said before compound signatures work a lot for that as well

P.S try 11/4 (jesus of time signatures that aren't by 2)
#20
Quote by innovine
Why are you writing in 5/4? Stop being a wanker. You decided on the timesig before yeu wrote the riff. Thats stupid. Start again.


I'm not you friggen tool.

I started a riff and it ended up that way, I just can't seem to make an end so it's loopable/coherent with the other parts I got.
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#21
You don't need to make it loop or end on a beat. Barlines and time signature only exist to make interpreting music easier.