#1
Composed something, can't really record it all right now so I made a Guitar Pro rendering for the moment.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/40_OAWmJvn0

Any thoughts? I'll probably try to change a few spots with different instrumentation as I'm not sure about their current fluidity.
Last edited by TLGuitar at Apr 12, 2014,
#2
The intro harmonies were a bit strange at parts and didn't have flow. But I think it sounded pretty good. Also, I think some of the drum beats were a bit strange. The bass drum was on the 2nd and 4th beat when it should have been on the 1st and 3rd beat. I don't know if it was like that on purpose but I think it would have sounded better if the snare had played on the 2nd and 4th beats and bass drum on the 1st and 3rd beats and not vice versa.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#3
What part of the intro, the acoustic opening? If you're talking about that, what exactly in it? I used some chromaticism in it and so it also has an augmented/diminished modulation in it, maybe it sounded strange to you.

Referring to the drums: well, I'm not a drummer and I basically added these more as an idea of how I'd integrate them. I don't think the how the beat is accentuated should be set in stone, but I can fix it so it's no biggie.

Thanks, any other?
#4
Quote by TLGuitar
What part of the intro, the acoustic opening? If you're talking about that, what exactly in it? I used some chromaticism in it and so it also has an augmented/diminished modulation in it, maybe it sounded strange to you.

Referring to the drums: well, I'm not a drummer and I basically added these more as an idea of how I'd integrate them. I don't think the how the beat is accentuated should be set in stone, but I can fix it so it's no biggie.

Thanks, any other?

Yeah, the acoustic part with the augmented chord. I don't think it fit it that well. I don't know why but it just didn't sound right. IMO the harmony just didn't have the flow.

The first chord that doesn't sound right is the IV7 chord after the V7. It may be due to the voicings you are using. Then the next two chords are OK but the augmented chord feels like it doesn't fit. Again, it may be due to voice leading. Those two chords just sounded a bit wrong to me. They kind of came from out of nowhere.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#5
I think it would fit well with the right sounds, Guitar Pro does not really do much justice in how things blend together in a mix.
#6
^ That's true. It would be cool to hear the piece played with real instruments.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#7
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Yeah, the acoustic part with the augmented chord. I don't think it fit it that well. I don't know why but it just didn't sound right. IMO the harmony just didn't have the flow.

The first chord that doesn't sound right is the IV7 chord after the V7. It may be due to the voicings you are using. Then the next two chords are OK but the augmented chord feels like it doesn't fit. Again, it may be due to voice leading. Those two chords just sounded a bit wrong to me. They kind of came from out of nowhere.


I'm not sure that I catch you on that one, as I don't see this progression (it's built upon Eb, just to make it clear). What part exactly in the video did you refer to?
#10
Quote by NewDayHappy
So impressed by this, absolutely love it.

Did Beethoven write this?


I'm not sure if I should take it as a huge compliment or that you were sarcastic?
#11
Quote by TLGuitar
I'm not sure that I catch you on that one, as I don't see this progression (it's built upon Eb, just to make it clear). What part exactly in the video did you refer to?

The first chord that didn't sound good was the third chord of the piece.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#12
Quote by MaggaraMarine
The first chord that didn't sound good was the third chord of the piece.


Well, in that case it should be the Ab dominant seventh (basically it should be the 4th degree of Eb minor), just that it doesn't come after a V7. The second chord is basically either a diminished 7th chord (D, in this case) or IIdim with an added 13th (F). I don't know, it sounds completely fine to me (and it definitely sounds better on live guitar), even though I'm not sure of how you could analyze such a progression. There is as I said chromaticism going on in it so something about the voice leading does seem to work this way.
#13
Yeah, if it sounds fine to you, it is good.

What sounds bad to me in the augmented chord is the bass note. The Db7/F chord doesn't really move smoothly to the Aaug (if there's A in the bass). Maybe try F or F# in the bass.

I think what may be wrong with the Ab7 chord is also the bass. Pay attention to how the bass moves.

The chords don't sound bad. It's just the bass.

Oh and I didn't notice it was a vii dim, not a V7. But they are almost the same chords.

At 4:08 the drum beat is "reversed". The kick drum should be where the snare is and the snare should be where the kick is. So change their place and it sounds good.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Apr 13, 2014,
#14
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Yeah, if it sounds fine to you, it is good.

What sounds bad to me in the augmented chord is the bass note. The Db7/F chord doesn't really move smoothly to the Aaug (if there's A in the bass). Maybe try F or F# in the bass.

I think what may be wrong with the Ab7 chord is also the bass. Pay attention to how the bass moves.

The chords don't sound bad. It's just the bass.

Oh and I didn't notice it was a vii dim, not a V7. But they are almost the same chords.

At 4:08 the drum beat is "reversed". The kick drum should be where the snare is and the snare should be where the kick is. So change their place and it sounds good.



Well, I can kind-of see what you're referring to, but it sounds to me like the best representation of the underlying harmony. You might have felt it as more fluid if I've used Ab in the bass of the Db dominant 7th so the augmented bass would simply go half a step upwards, but it doesn't sound as interesting to me. It's an augmented chromatic function so it's ought to sound somewhat out of place anyway.

Well, thanks for the suggestions.
#15
Yeah, do what you feel. If this is what sounds best to you, keep it this way. It didn't sound that bad. But the first time I heard it, it sounded a bit out of place. And yeah, the rest of the piece is really good.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#16
Thanks! Just thinking of adding some more instrumentation in the last section to give it a grander sound rather than just playing the theme the same a fourth upwards, though.
#17
Thanks for your review! It's quite long so I'll have to give it a couple of good listenings to tell you my overall feel about it. But so far I have one question: how did you work out the sixth chord in the first part? You start on I- (Eb minor), then you go to VIIdim7 (F in bass), IV7 (from melodic minor I guess, right?), bVII, VIIdim7 (again F in bass), then that A augmented chord. The voicing you use makes it sound quite in place, I think the F you keep playing in the highest voice gives that effect. How did you work out that chord? Where did you take it from? Cheers!
#18
Quote by JP50
Thanks for your review! It's quite long so I'll have to give it a couple of good listenings to tell you my overall feel about it. But so far I have one question: how did you work out the sixth chord in the first part? You start on I- (Eb minor), then you go to VIIdim7 (F in bass), IV7 (from melodic minor I guess, right?), bVII, VIIdim7 (again F in bass), then that A augmented chord. The voicing you use makes it sound quite in place, I think the F you keep playing in the highest voice gives that effect. How did you work out that chord? Where did you take it from? Cheers!



About the sequence - I'd say it's more like the fifth chord as the subtonic doesn't go into VIIdim7 in that part, I simply added the seventh for Db (it basically plays the IIdim in the second half of the bar), but anyway, well, I didn't take it (the augmented chord) from anywhere. I just kinda worked it into it. I'd say it's basically a chromatic modulation of raising the 5th from the Db chord.

Thanks, I'd like to hear what you have to say about the rest.
#19
You say that the bVII does not go to VIIdim7? From what I heard, Ab7 goes to Db and then I hear a diminished 7th chord with an F bass (which is not the root, I reckon) that goes to Aaug. Could you post your version of the chord sequence for that first part? It will be easier to compare with what I could figure out. Besides, I love analyzing stuff!
#20
It goes like this -

------S S S S S S S S
Eb||----------2-----------2-||
Bb||-------3-----------1----||
Gb||----2-----------2-------||
Db||--0----------------------||
Ab||--------------------------||
Eb||--------------2----------||

It's not a diminished 7th. As I said, the second half is rather Fdim (playing root-3rd-5th-root) if you'd like, but it's basically a continuation of the Db chord.
Last edited by TLGuitar at Apr 19, 2014,
#21
I see I got the notes right! The thing is that you have a b5 between the third (bass) and the 7th of that Db 1st inversion, and being that section in a minor tonality it quite suggests an inversion of the VIIdim7, its tension make me listen to it as a VIIdim7 (and we also have that bVII7 does not have a dominant function in minor tonality, it does not create that tension I'm hearing).

Moving the bass a good minor 6th down to a note that is not the root is quite misleading as well; I listened to that part once more and still sounds (to me) like a dim7 that is about to resolve to the I chord, but instead goes to that Aaug chord (even though it hasn't the flat 7th). Sorry for the wall of text lol. I'll give it some other full listenings and review and ask about the rest! Cheers.
#22
A diminished 7th chord would mean that the chord has moved from Db to D. I don't play the Db itself in the inversion, but I don't feel like it implies it was sharpened. As I said, it's more of an articulation to the dominant 7th chord. This kind of arpeggio is not uncommon as far as I remember. I feel like I rather chose to add the 7th (regarding the descending from Db to B) because it creates a sequence of two descending whole tones into Aaug.
Last edited by TLGuitar at Apr 19, 2014,
#23
Quote by JP50
I see I got the notes right! The thing is that you have a b5 between the third (bass) and the 7th of that Db 1st inversion, and being that section in a minor tonality it quite suggests an inversion of the VIIdim7, its tension make me listen to it as a VIIdim7 (and we also have that bVII7 does not have a dominant function in minor tonality, it does not create that tension I'm hearing).

Moving the bass a good minor 6th down to a note that is not the root is quite misleading as well; I listened to that part once more and still sounds (to me) like a dim7 that is about to resolve to the I chord, but instead goes to that Aaug chord (even though it hasn't the flat 7th). Sorry for the wall of text lol. I'll give it some other full listenings and review and ask about the rest! Cheers.

It is a Db7 chord in the second inversion.

The "IV7" (Ab7) chord is actually the dominant chord of Db major (which is also the next chord) so I would say there's a modulation to Db major. If you look at the chord after Aaug, it's Gb major. You could also look at it being in Bb minor. After the Gb major chord there's an Eb minor (iv), Edim7 (vii*/V) and F (V) and this really suggests Bb minor. And that way the aug chord would also make more sense. I would actually not call it Aaug. I would call it Dbaug with A in bass. That way it would be the III+ chord which is not extremely rare.

So it starts from Eb minor, modualtes to Db major and to the relative minor (Bb minor).
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Apr 20, 2014,
#24
Yeah, I basically thought of it like that as it's the only "natural" place it would appear in a scale. But it has some off key modulations all over so the key is kind of fluid anyway. It then play in Bbmaj but modulates back to Ebmin, even though the main theme goes Ebmin - Fmaj, which suggests Bbmin but doesn't resolve to it.
#25
Db7 with F bass is 1st inversion, not 2nd.
1st inv = 3rd in bass (F is the third of Db major)
2nd inv= 5th in bass
3rd inv= 7th in bass


To summarize, proggresion in that part is: Eb- Ddim7/F Ab7 Db Fdim Dbaug Gb

IV7 IS from melodic minor. Melody plays D (the #11 of Ab) right before the Ab7, the lydian dominant sound is fairly obvious.

It does not modulate, at least according to my college's definition. Modulation takes place when a new tonality or tonal center is established, and Db never gets to be in that place. I would say that Ab7 is a pivot chord, it's heard like a IV7 but then acts as a V7/bVII (as secondary dominant; as I said before, Db isn't enough time around to be heard as the new tonal center thus there is no modulation).

The Fdim chord still sounds like a dim7 without the 7th to me. Try playing F-7(b5) (II chord of Eb minor) over it, the minor 7th (Eb) does NOT fit. If you play Fdim7 in the same arpeggio fashion, it does fit (Ebb sounds in place). If a chord doesn't have a note, it doesn't mean that it does not suggest it. In this context it does not sound as a 1st inv Db7 at all, at least to me.

But you are right about the Aaug chord. I hadn't taken the time to figure the resolution to Gb, so now it does make sense, and so does the Fdim7 stuff. Both have a possible resolution to Gb, so it's summed up in playing the same dominant function with two different chords.

What do you think?

Cheers!
#26
But there's no E in either of these chords so I don't get your point. Fdim would have F - Ab - B. Dbmaj got Db instead of the B. Combining them in an arpeggio implies a simple Db dominant 7th chord. As I said, in the Eb minor context the diminished 7th chord would be D.

And the modulation doesn't resolve in Db, as you later wrote. It is basically going to (but no quite resolving to) Gb, but as I said, it's all very fluid and chromatic so it's can't really be fitted into an exact scale by using each note, rather implying a temporary tonal center. Let's say that notation wise I wouldn't be changing the key signature.
Last edited by TLGuitar at Apr 20, 2014,
#27
@JP50: Yeah, I meant first inversion.

There is definitely a modulation. And I would say it's a short modualtion to Db major and then it modulates to Bb minor. It is definitely in Bb minor. Or then it modulates straight to Bb minor and the "IV7" is actually a V7/III. But many times it can be hard to tell exactly when the modualtion occurs.

I wouldn't call it melodic minor. Melodic minor is used to avoid the augmented 2nd when going up (like 6-7-1). If you played it using the harmonic minor scale, it would be b6-7-1 and sound a bit dissonant. But when you go down, you don't use the leading tone (because leading tone wants to go up) and that's why you don't need to use the major sixth either. So when you go down, you play 1-b7-b6. So when you are using a major sixth in this case, I wouldn't call it melodic minor. It's not using melodic minor like melodic minor is used. There's a modulation so it's using the notes of the next key. You shouldn't really think in scales. Look at the harmony.

The IV7 acts like a dominant chord because the next chord is Db (yes - you do first hear it as IV7 but that's not where it stays. It would be a IV7 if the next chord was Ebm). Ab7-Db - that's a clear V-I. And you can see how the next part is clearly in Bb minor (I explained it in my post). Then the comes a couple of chords (the vii*/V) and the V chord that goes to a major I. There's a modualtion to parallel major (Bb major). Then it goes like I-V7/IV-IV-iv-V-iv-I - which also acts like the V7 of the new key which is Eb minor.

But about the Db7 chord. Maybe I'm used to this basic chord progression C-C7/E-F (I-V65/IV-IV) and to me it sounds exactly like it.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#28
Overall i really like it! It's got a great bouncy rhythm which I wouldn't have expected in a song like this

not digging the harmonies around 1.05 though Maybe it would sound better on a real guitar? GP has a hard time with bends, I think

1.27 harmonies are really cool, try to keep a real harpischord or organ if you're recording it again

Will you be able to try to get some mountain horns or something in there? between 1:40 and 2:00 would be cool, get that whole

bouncy rhythm at 2.30 is cool. do it more, if you can
#29
Thanks! About that part around 1:05, if you meant specifically to the chord in the background, it may cause some dissonance with the harmony, so I might move some notes around, even though obviously everything sound better on a real guitar. I don't really know what a mountain horn would be, but I could check into that.
Last edited by TLGuitar at Apr 28, 2014,
#31
Quote by DaveMindframe
Seems pretty impressive!

I would like to hear it with real instruments though


Thanks! Do you think the structure works, though? Regarding the development and different parts, that is? I think maybe to change the harpsichord in the last section where it plays the original part higher, as it sounds to tight to me. Do you agree?

Thanks.