#1
I'm trying to learn the intro to master of puppets and I'm having difficulty with my technique playing open strings and then the notes in between the open strings...

My fingers get a mind of their own, especially when trying to play something like this with an open "e" string against the single notes on the "a" string...

I can play it slowly but when I try and increase my speed it doesn't work well for me...

Any suggestions on practice exercises to get a better rhythm technique for playing this kind of rhythm?

And is there a specific name for this type of rhythm?

Thanks for the time and suggestions....
#2
I'm a little confused to be honest, as far as exactly how you're playing the song.
A|----2----3----4-----3----2
E|0-1--0-1--0-1--0-1--0-1

Right?

Best thing I can tell you, slow it down, WAY DOWN. Then when it becomes easy at that speed, make it a little faster. You gotta build your way there. And take a break from it after, let it soak in. Hope that helps.
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#4
Quote by Rune Playaz
I'm a little confused to be honest, as far as exactly how you're playing the song.
A|----2----3----4-----3----2
E|0-1--0-1--0-1--0-1--0-1

Right?

Best thing I can tell you, slow it down, WAY DOWN. Then when it becomes easy at that speed, make it a little faster. You gotta build your way there. And take a break from it after, let it soak in. Hope that helps.


In a nut shell, yep that part, and I'm fine playing slow like you said just when I try and go faster at the actual tempo it just kind of goes down the drain. Im playing the part before and the chords after that and just keep repeating it but this type of riff seems to be one thing that I'm hitting a road block on...

Hence I was hoping for some thoughts on other riffs like this that I could practice with to try and further develop my playing on and between two strings like that...

Thanks
#5
It took me a long time to be able to play that properly (like 3 years after starting) so I would say: don't expect to be able to play it straight away, take your time and build up the speed and stamina. And remember to palm mute the open E and F so it doesn't all clash together.

Anyway, similar songs that have this style of E and A string switches are 'Blackened' (quite hard) 'Creeping Death,' 'No Remorse' to name a few...
Quote by chrisyoonyoon
where i'm from it's very different with emotionships
#6
Are you doing all down picks or alternate picking? I can't do it all down picks, and I know people say there is a difference but i can't hear it.

Other songs that may help.
Holier than Thou - Metallica
Hand of blood - BFMV
Unholy Confessions - a7x

Honestly, a lot of BFMV's older stuff helped me get my speed in regards to picking between other strings. My 2 cents bro. But like krimson on said, you can't expect to learn it over night.
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#7
I always found practicing alternate picking with chromatic scales quite boring. Instead I took very hard songs and slow them down until i can play them perfectly and then continue to speed up just a bit as i go.

Try Paul Gilbert - Technical Difficulities (intro) or Unearth - Giles. I know both are quite hard and you will have to slow it down ALOT, but for me these 2 songs did wonders when it comes to alt. picking. Remember speed up very slightly (3-5bpm) when it becomes easy at the current tempo.
#8
Quote by Cing Krimson
It took me a long time to be able to play that properly (like 3 years after starting) so I would say: don't expect to be able to play it straight away, take your time and build up the speed and stamina. And remember to palm mute the open E and F so it doesn't all clash together.

Anyway, similar songs that have this style of E and A string switches are 'Blackened' (quite hard) 'Creeping Death,' 'No Remorse' to name a few...

this. I've been playing for 3 and a half years and it's still difficult for me to downpick it at original tempo, if I'm not warmed up. It's not an easy thing to do, it'll take you a lot of practicing to be able to play it, but try balckened, it is 20 bpm slower than Master. Loop it on guitar pro with lowered tempo and play it a couple times in a row. It'll help you build stamina in the right hand, which will lead to speeding up over time. At least it helped me. For me, everything is stamina, it makes you play more relaxed.
#9
Quote by Rune Playaz
Are you doing all down picks or alternate picking? I can't do it all down picks, and I know people say there is a difference but i can't hear it..


I practice both ways... Definitely better with the down picking... The alternate picking isn't second nature (if it ever is?) because my mind is always thinking about the next string change and whether that's a down or up pick to get there....

I try and practice perfectly when I practice so I'm always thinking about
Posture, left hand/right hand positioning, thumb position, not anchoring pinky on guitar body, playing on time, trying to keep track of counting, remembering what note to play next, where I am at in the riff I'm playing, not pressing to hard (no accidental sharps) pressing hard enough to get a clear note, palm muting, and listening to what I'm playing etc. etc.

I know it takes a while for all this stuff to become second nature... I see people play and it's like they don't even listen to what they play and I can hear all these types of mistakes so I'm really careful not to make the same mistakes and I think sometimes having so much on my mind makes things that much harder to play..

But if I ignore all these things, I hear the "sloppiness" in my music and to me it's not worth it...It sounds like crap.

Eventually it comes with practice, but sometimes I get better by practicing something else and that makes what i can't play "easier" to play.... Or it seems that way
#10
Quote by kimi_page
For me, everything is stamina, it makes you play more relaxed.

For metal songs, especially ones that involve a lot of downpicking, stamina is VERY important. Playing a riff like that at full speed is a challenge in itself, but playing the full song is stepping it up A LOT and you need the stamina or it'll fall apart.

You need accuracy as well as stamina though...
Quote by chrisyoonyoon
where i'm from it's very different with emotionships
#11
A lot of beginner guitarists start learning this song after a few weeks/months of play. And that's fine, those riffs are cool and great practice. But seriously, it's not a beginner song and it takes several years to play it well at full speed. People sometimes throw around "MoP is piece of cake", that it's easy, and those are either already an advanced player -- or over-exaggerating and probably playing some very sloppy version of it themselves. You can practice this song for weeks straight early on, but unless you're a very special guy, don't expect to be able to really play this anytime soon.
#12
Quote by fanapathy
A lot of beginner guitarists start learning this song after a few weeks/months of play. And that's fine, those riffs are cool and great practice. But seriously, it's not a beginner song and it takes several years to play it well at full speed. People sometimes throw around "MoP is piece of cake", that it's easy, and those are either already an advanced player -- or over-exaggerating and probably playing some very sloppy version of it themselves. You can practice this song for weeks straight early on, but unless you're a very special guy, don't expect to be able to really play this anytime soon.

I've never seen a guy so special that he can play stuff like that in a first 2 years of playing. If you practice 8 hours a day though... but that's top shit
#13
Quote by fanapathy
A lot of beginner guitarists start learning this song after a few weeks/months of play. And that's fine, those riffs are cool and great practice. But seriously, it's not a beginner song and it takes several years to play it well at full speed. People sometimes throw around "MoP is piece of cake", that it's easy, and those are either already an advanced player -- or over-exaggerating and probably playing some very sloppy version of it themselves. You can practice this song for weeks straight early on, but unless you're a very special guy, don't expect to be able to really play this anytime soon.



Yeah, MoP is really fun song and simple to learn but no way in hell you are going to play it in full speed early on. I can barely play Creeping Death, Master Of Puppets at full speed is still out of question for me. Progress has been slow but steady.

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#14
Quote by kimi_page
this. I've been playing for 3 and a half years and it's still difficult for me to downpick it at original tempo, if I'm not warmed up. It's not an easy thing to do, it'll take you a lot of practicing to be able to play it, but try balckened, it is 20 bpm slower than Master. Loop it on guitar pro with lowered tempo and play it a couple times in a row. It'll help you build stamina in the right hand, which will lead to speeding up over time. At least it helped me. For me, everything is stamina, it makes you play more relaxed.


Thanks, I think you hit the nail right on the head... stamina is what I'm lacking. That's why I can get up to speed and then it goes to crap after a few bars... Thanks for all the replies...
#15
I would try to learn that riff with alternate picking. It will be much easier and you won't be able to tell much difference like you can in the verse riff, where it's very important you use all down picking.

If you learn the correct way to play RHCP's "Snow" it will be a HUGE help in teaching you to alternate picking across multiple strings.
#16
Quote by 757ian123
I would try to learn that riff with alternate picking. It will be much easier and you won't be able to tell much difference like you can in the verse riff, where it's very important you use all down picking.

If you learn the correct way to play RHCP's "Snow" it will be a HUGE help in teaching you to alternate picking across multiple strings.


thanks for the suggestion... wasn't ever really into RHCP but sometimes i guess you just gotta learn something not really your taste to make an improvement elsewhere.. They got some good tunes and riffs but i tend to like harder rock and metal more...

what messes me up is when there's a spot where it changes to up/up/down/up or down/down/up/down... i'm so focused on the u/d/u/d that i lose track of either timing, the note or the picking pattern when i try to make a string switch.

as they say, practice makes perfect. thanks for the suggestion.
#17
Quote by fastforded
thanks for the suggestion... wasn't ever really into RHCP but sometimes i guess you just gotta learn something not really your taste to make an improvement elsewhere.. They got some good tunes and riffs but i tend to like harder rock and metal more...

what messes me up is when there's a spot where it changes to up/up/down/up or down/down/up/down... i'm so focused on the u/d/u/d that i lose track of either timing, the note or the picking pattern when i try to make a string switch.

as they say, practice makes perfect. thanks for the suggestion.



That is economy picking, which is all cool but at this time might be too hard (timing is harder as you noticed). Try strict alternate picking, down/up/down/up even if you have to move from one string to another. Yes there is more wasted motion when you need to move opposite direction than you are striking but the motion itself helps keep timing better. Economy picking is useful skill but not all players bother with it and stick to strict alternate picking. Its a matter of taste.

Economy tends to sound softer too because you are almost like sweep picking when moving from string to another where with alternate there is always a concious, perhaps even accentuated strike.

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#18
Quote by fastforded
In a nut shell, yep that part, and I'm fine playing slow like you said just when I try and go faster at the actual tempo it just kind of goes down the drain. Im playing the part before and the chords after that and just keep repeating it but this type of riff seems to be one thing that I'm hitting a road block on...

Hence I was hoping for some thoughts on other riffs like this that I could practice with to try and further develop my playing on and between two strings like that...

Thanks


Honestly if you want to play this riff the best way to practice is to play this riff slowly. The reason you want to play slowly is that you can consciously play the riff with perfect technique (complete relaxation, economical movements and proper articulation) which will ingrain it into your muscle memory and your brain. The reason you can't play it past a certain speed is that you haven't practiced your technique enough (or haven't practiced properly, with perfect technique).

That being said learning other songs with a lot of downpicking, such as Blackened and Creeping Death, will obviously help your technique. If you are fairly close to playing the riff to speed then you can probably just practice it and get there soon, but if not learning other songs will probably be better.

Quote by fanapathy
A lot of beginner guitarists start learning this song after a few weeks/months of play. And that's fine, those riffs are cool and great practice. But seriously, it's not a beginner song and it takes several years to play it well at full speed. People sometimes throw around "MoP is piece of cake", that it's easy, and those are either already an advanced player -- or over-exaggerating and probably playing some very sloppy version of it themselves. You can practice this song for weeks straight early on, but unless you're a very special guy, don't expect to be able to really play this anytime soon.


Quote by kimi_page
I've never seen a guy so special that he can play stuff like that in a first 2 years of playing. If you practice 8 hours a day though... but that's top shit


I completely agree that this isn't a beginner song, however you can play this after maybe 1 - 1.5 years of solid practice (1-3 hours a day purely practicing technique). That being said most people don't learn how to practice properly for a good few months to even years after they start playing; I wasted a good year practicing with shit technique (including learning this song and using my elbow to downpick fast...) before understanding how to actually practice.

But yeah, learning this song before you actually have decent technique down isn't going to be a fun time speaking from experience.
#19
One more thing about alternate picking this riff: it would be benefitial to be able to play it alternate picking, but on much higher speed, because for alternate picking, it's slow riff. And if you're deeply into metal, no matter what anyone says to you, you WILL NEED DOWNPICKING. Seriously. I'm not an expert, but I'm speaking from a heart and personal experisnce. No matter what anyone says to you, it's not possible to get the same agressive sound with alternate picking while riffing in the manner of 8th notes from (lets say) 150bpm to 220bpm (this is just random choice of beats per minute). I personaly, for riffs, use downpicking always when I'm able to do it on certain speed.
#20
Quote by MaaZeus
That is economy picking, which is all cool but at this time might be too hard (timing is harder as you noticed). Try strict alternate picking, down/up/down/up even if you have to move from one string to another. Yes there is more wasted motion when you need to move opposite direction than you are striking but the motion itself helps keep timing better. Economy picking is useful skill but not all players bother with it and stick to strict alternate picking. Its a matter of taste.

Economy tends to sound softer too because you are almost like sweep picking when moving from string to another where with alternate there is always a concious, perhaps even accentuated strike.


gotcha, sometimes when i practice my 1-2-3-4 or 4,3,2,1 etc. chromatic scales/runs, i try different accents on like 1 2 3 4 or 1 2 3 4

something that just seems to be a another weakness for me is counting time in my head (at the correct tempo of songs)... as an example, ive met people who play by ear well, cant read a note but can play something like "stairway" by ear. if they try and play sheet music, they lose the ability to play... now for me

I often wonder counting say 1,2,3 4 (or 1 e+a, etc) time in my head vs. actually feeling that timing and not counting... im more of the feeling type of player. i seem to lose time when i "try" and keep time, but I'm playing in time without counting (consciously)...

I can see the weakness though, when, as another example, I try and get the fabled Iron Maiden gallop.. if i try and keep time, it goies to crap. now if i ignore keeping time, i play the gallop ok.

Now this is kind of weird to me trying to beat this bug as when i slow down and play the D DUD DUD DUD DUD slowly, it doesnt sound right (the tempos too slow of course)

So then i try and speed up the tempo, and my counting gets lost trying to play at tempo. If i play by "ear or feel' it seems to work out for me...

I went so far as to try and practice off hours with drum sticks and work on some beats, but I'm no drummer, and it helps my timing (somewhat), but that drum or timing "practice" doesn't really transfer itself to my guitar playing at all... still trying to get the counts down perfect or as close as i can. just seems the more i'm consciously aware of my timing, the worse out of time i get, and the less i worry about timing, the better in time i play...
#22
Quote by fastforded
gotcha, sometimes when i practice my 1-2-3-4 or 4,3,2,1 etc. chromatic scales/runs, i try different accents on like 1 2 3 4 or 1 2 3 4

something that just seems to be a another weakness for me is counting time in my head (at the correct tempo of songs)... as an example, ive met people who play by ear well, cant read a note but can play something like "stairway" by ear. if they try and play sheet music, they lose the ability to play... now for me

I often wonder counting say 1,2,3 4 (or 1 e+a, etc) time in my head vs. actually feeling that timing and not counting... im more of the feeling type of player. i seem to lose time when i "try" and keep time, but I'm playing in time without counting (consciously)...

I can see the weakness though, when, as another example, I try and get the fabled Iron Maiden gallop.. if i try and keep time, it goies to crap. now if i ignore keeping time, i play the gallop ok.

Now this is kind of weird to me trying to beat this bug as when i slow down and play the D DUD DUD DUD DUD slowly, it doesnt sound right (the tempos too slow of course)

So then i try and speed up the tempo, and my counting gets lost trying to play at tempo. If i play by "ear or feel' it seems to work out for me...

I went so far as to try and practice off hours with drum sticks and work on some beats, but I'm no drummer, and it helps my timing (somewhat), but that drum or timing "practice" doesn't really transfer itself to my guitar playing at all... still trying to get the counts down perfect or as close as i can. just seems the more i'm consciously aware of my timing, the worse out of time i get, and the less i worry about timing, the better in time i play...


Do you have a metronome? Practice with a metronome so you dont have to count in your head. Actually when you are playing yourself and keeping the timing on your head you easily start to chase your own tail so to speak, go faster and play a note too early. Metronome helps to keep your timing and speed at steady pace.

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#23
Quote by Cing Krimson
For metal songs, especially ones that involve a lot of downpicking, stamina is VERY important. Playing a riff like that at full speed is a challenge in itself, but playing the full song is stepping it up A LOT and you need the stamina or it'll fall apart.

You need accuracy as well as stamina though...



I agree. I can play this song all the way up to the solo before my wrist and forearm start aching. LOL. ONce solo gets there the pressure/tension eases away. Great/fun song.