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#1
Hello,

I am a beginner player and I am now dabbling in basic guitar theory and scales.
I know and can play my major scale in all positions all over the guitar no problem, I practice and practice and practice.
I am trying to understand about modes and I am confused. I have learned all the shapes of the 7 modes with root on 6 and 5th strings.
Now let's say I am trying to improvise over a simple C Am chord prog in the key of C. I want to get that minor, sad feel to my impro, I am going to play my Aolian shape with my starting note the A on the 6 string with the scale being ABCDEFGA.
Now, if I decide to play a Dorian shape, can I start it on a C note somewhere? That would change the key (like from C to Bb?)?
To remain in the key of C, I have to start my Dorian on a D and play DEFGABCD. But now what's the difference between playing DEFGABCD (Dorian) and ABCDEFGA ( aeolian)?

I hope I am making some kind of sense and that someone can help!

Many thanks and happy playing,
#3
if you play the different relative modes over a basic major progression it won't sound like the mode, it'll sound major. E.g. if you play D dorian over a C major chord progression it'll just sound like you're playing C major.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#4
There's no difference between DEFGABC and ABCDEFG. Choose the same melodies when using either of the "modes" and you wouldn't be doing anything different because your ears would still create melodies based on a chord progression the same way.

Modes are essentially modifications to the major scale (lydian is the major scale with an augmented 4th, for example). These modifications create accidentals that make them sound different from the actual major scale. Since you only get the typical sound of the modes by highlighting these accidentals, that's what you do. You do this by using chord extensions. Using a simple chord progression like C, Am, G, D won't work.
#5
I see, many thanks for the link and the answers.
I need to apply a mode matching a chord progression. I am trying my very first impros on very simple progressions that I loop (only can play simple stuff), mostly in C and I am focusing on playing the major scale up and down the neck. I don't understand yet all this about accidentals and the different important notes (or interval?) of each mode though I try to play 3rd and 5th of whichever chord I am over.

Damned, 2 months ago Dorian was just the name of restaurant and Ionian a place to go swimming.
#6
Quote by requin02
I see, many thanks for the link and the answers.
I need to apply a mode matching a chord progression. I am trying my very first impros on very simple progressions that I loop (only can play simple stuff), mostly in C and I am focusing on playing the major scale up and down the neck. I don't understand yet all this about accidentals and the different important notes (or interval?) of each mode though I try to play 3rd and 5th of whichever chord I am over.

Damned, 2 months ago Dorian was just the name of restaurant and Ionian a place to go swimming.


I think of it as the note/chord on which the melody resolves without leaving a feeling of tension. So Aeolian on natural notes resolves to A/Am, Dorian resolves to D/Dm
#7
Yeah. you're gonna want to focus on the root note whenever you change modes. If you're playing in the key of A minor, try to be aware of which note is the A note in all your modes. Modes are just a way of helping you move up and down the neck. Although they have been known to be used as scales themselves.
#8
If you're a beginner player who's just starting out with theory then you shouldn't be going anywhere near modes yet, they'll only serve to confuse you.

Modes aren't "basic theory", they're not even essential and they'll make absolutely no sense to you until you've got an understanding of some of the more fundamental concepts in theory.
Actually called Mark!

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#9
Quote by steven seagull
If you're a beginner player who's just starting out with theory then you shouldn't be going anywhere near modes yet, they'll only serve to confuse you.

Modes aren't "basic theory", they're not even essential and they'll make absolutely no sense to you until you've got an understanding of some of the more fundamental concepts in theory.


yeah you need to get major and minor down first (in terms of scales). and probably a bunch of other stuff about chords etc. too.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#10
To me, a mode is the same scale started from a different finger.
Sort of a 'duh' thing.
#11
Quote by AngryHatter
To me, a mode is the same scale started from a different finger.
Sort of a 'duh' thing.


Pretty much it for me, too.
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#12
^^And that's not what a mode is, and that's why people get confused.

Seriously, as a beginner the best thing to do is forget you ever heard the word - they're something you can visit a year or so down the line if you feel the need when you've got the foundation knowledge required to make sense of them.

Moved to MT for damage limitation, please be nice regs!
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

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i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


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#13
Quote by requin02
Hello,

I am a beginner player and I am now dabbling in basic guitar theory and scales.
I know and can play my major scale in all positions all over the guitar no problem, I practice and practice and practice.
I am trying to understand about modes and I am confused. I have learned all the shapes of the 7 modes with root on 6 and 5th strings.
Now let's say I am trying to improvise over a simple C Am chord prog in the key of C. I want to get that minor, sad feel to my impro, I am going to play my Aolian shape with my starting note the A on the 6 string with the scale being ABCDEFGA.
Now, if I decide to play a Dorian shape, can I start it on a C note somewhere? That would change the key (like from C to Bb?)?
To remain in the key of C, I have to start my Dorian on a D and play DEFGABCD. But now what's the difference between playing DEFGABCD (Dorian) and ABCDEFGA ( aeolian)?

I hope I am making some kind of sense and that someone can help!

Many thanks and happy playing,


If you're playing a C - Am vamp then depending on how it is played either chord could sound like the tonal centre. Thus C major or A minor would be the way to go but typically in those instances you would call it C major. Any order or arrangement of the notes of the C major scale over that progression will sound like C Major.

If you want to bring out a Dorian flavour you will need to ensure that the tonal centre is in the right place. The difference between D Dorian ( D E F G A B C D) and A Aeolian (A B C D E F G A) is that in D Dorian the tonal centre is D.

The harmony plays a big part in determining the tonal centre so if your chord progression resolves to C major then you are NOT playing D Dorian. In order to play D Dorian you would need the music to establish Dm as the tonal centre.

In A Aeolian the tonal centre is Am and you would need to clearly establish that Am is the tonal centre in order to play A Aeolian.

Think of it like this: In D Dorian D is the tonic while A is the perfect fifth. E is a major second F is a minor third, B is a major sixth, etc. In A Aeolian A is the tonic while D is the perfect fourth, F is a minor sixth and E is a perfect fifth.

When you clearly establish D as your tonal centre E will sound like a major second but when A is clearly established as the tonal centre E will sound like a perfect fifth. Do you see how that works? Same notes but different context and different functions.

This is why modes are not just "starting the same scale on a different finger" or one of seven fretboard patterns of the major scale. When C is your tonic it does not matter where you play your scale on the fretboard, or on what finger you start your major scale...D will still sound like a major second against that tonic C.

I'm glad you read that Corwinoid link, it can also be found in the "Modes sticky" here at the Musician's Talk forum.

All the best.
Si
#14
Quote by requin02
Hello,

I am a beginner player and I am now dabbling in basic guitar theory and scales.
I know and can play my major scale in all positions all over the guitar no problem, I practice and practice and practice.
I am trying to understand about modes and I am confused. I have learned all the shapes of the 7 modes with root on 6 and 5th strings.
Now let's say I am trying to improvise over a simple C Am chord prog in the key of C. I want to get that minor, sad feel to my impro, I am going to play my Aolian shape with my starting note the A on the 6 string with the scale being ABCDEFGA.
Now, if I decide to play a Dorian shape, can I start it on a C note somewhere? That would change the key (like from C to Bb?)?
To remain in the key of C, I have to start my Dorian on a D and play DEFGABCD. But now what's the difference between playing DEFGABCD (Dorian) and ABCDEFGA ( aeolian)?

I hope I am making some kind of sense and that someone can help!

Many thanks and happy playing,



What you play in the background has everything to do with whether you are playing modes or not. The way you are describing, does not change the key, regardless of the note you start on. If you fix that premise, and move forward, I can answer your question.

Improvising over the key of C:

You can't get a sad minor feel, by going to A over that progression. I see what you think you are doing, but, in order for you to have a sad minor sound, you need to change keys in the song, to an A minor. In this case what you describe, what you are really doing...is simply playing in C major.

You can play that Dorian shape, as you call it, but, again, you're only playing C major, because of the chords. So don't allow yourself to be fooled into believing that anything modal, novel or exotic is happening.

If you pull a C Dorian shape, its going to sound pretty odd, but unless your KEY and chords physically change to Bb major, the key will remain in C and you'll just sound like you're playing a lot of bad scale notes, unless you are aware of using the notes as passing tones, but that takes a scale command that most do not possess, If you modulated to the key of Bb and the chords are in Bb major, then your C Dorian scale is simply Bb major.

You asked the smartest question in the entire post, next:

"what's the difference between playing DEFGABCD (Dorian) and ABCDEFGA ( aeolian)?"

Exactly......the answer is NONE, in the context of these chords you are playing.

Its all C Major.

Best,

Sean
#15
Quote by steven seagull

Moved to MT for damage limitation


Best plan ever

Though it's actually working out ok so far...
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#16
Quote by AngryHatter
To me, a mode is the same scale started from a different finger.
Sort of a 'duh' thing.


More like a 'facepalm' thing.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#17
Quote by requin02
Hello,


I hope I am making some kind of sense and that someone can help!

Many thanks and happy playing,


hey how do you post a new thread?
i can't find anyway!
#19
Quote by Abhishek1993
hey how do you post a new thread?
i can't find anyway!


If you click on the open forum/thread list (rather than within a thread like you are now), there's a button at the top left of the listed threads which will let you start a new thread.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#20
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Might I suggest you learn what a key is, how it works, what defines a key, etc. BEFORE working on modes?


The Wikipedia article is helpful, but the idea of key seems a bit slippery. Do you notate D dorian in the key of C or in the key of F with accidentals, or something else?
#21
Quote by Tony Done
The Wikipedia article is helpful, but the idea of key seems a bit slippery.

I wouldn't trust wikipedia on something like this, because there's a lot of misinformation on modes and anyone can edit wikipedia. (I doubt that wikipedia staff would flag something like a wrong interpretation of modes. )

Do you notate D dorian in the key of C or in the key of F with accidentals, or something else?

D dorian resolves to D. It feels "at rest"/"at home" on D.

This is why you need to understand keys and harmony, because the key of anything is what it resolves to. So, D dorian resolves to D (not C, F, or anything else).

In fact, we have an entire sticky that covers what to learn BEFORE working on modes:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1042392
That sticky even has recommended threads that help with understanding modes, once you get all the prerequisites down.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at May 3, 2014,
#22
Quote by Tony Done
Do you notate D dorian in the key of C or in the key of F with accidentals, or something else?


Are you asking about key signatures? If C major and A minor use the same key signature (no sharps, no flats), I see no reason why D Dorian wouldn't do the same. Only difference is that D Dorian resolves to D, just as C major and A minor resolve to C and A respectively.
#23
^I've seen it both ways. I have seen a key signature with no sharps or flats and a note that says "key signature denotes G mixolydian" it was years ago. I remember it was a published book of sheet music but I can't remember what song it was or anything now. But I do remember seeing it.

I've also seen Dorian with the key signature of it's parallel minor with acccidentals.
E.G. A Dorian notated with an A minor key signature (no sharps or flats) and accidentals used to notate the major sixth.
===

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Might I suggest you learn what a key is, how it works, what defines a key, etc. BEFORE working on modes?

What is a key? How do they work? What defines a key?
I'm just wondering, are you, yourself, able to answer these questions?
Si
#24
Quote by 20Tigers
(a) I've seen it both ways. I have seen a key signature with no sharps or flats and a note that says "key signature denotes G mixolydian" it was years ago. I remember it was a published book of sheet music but I can't remember what song it was or anything now. But I do remember seeing it.
===


(b) What is a key? How do they work? What defines a key?


(a) Same here (I think the one I saw was phrygian or phrygian dominant, can't remember for sure). I can't remember where I saw it, either. I thought it was in a Steve Vai tab book I had but when I flicked through it, I couldn't find it.

(b) Trying really hard not to post a picture of a door key and a lock
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#25
Quote by cjohnson122989
Are you asking about key signatures? If C major and A minor use the same key signature (no sharps, no flats), I see no reason why D Dorian wouldn't do the same. Only difference is that D Dorian resolves to D, just as C major and A minor resolve to C and A respectively.


That's my view too, but there seem to be differences of opinion - see Wikipedia article.
#26
Quote by Tony Done
That's my view too, but there seem to be differences of opinion - see Wikipedia article.


I'm not sure which wiki article you're referring to (I re-read this thread and found no links), but if you're handing off sheet music to someone else, it's probably best to use a conventional major/minor key signature whenever possible. Phrygian, like any mode, is not all that unusual as it is based on intervals of the major scale, so the relative major (or minor) key signature should probably be used.

Phrygian dominant (with a raised third) however, could either have an odd key signature to account for the raised 3rd, or use accidentals. Think of the main guitar lead in The Offspring's "Come out and Play." Root, minor second, major third.
#27
Quote by cjohnson122989
I'm not sure which wiki article you're referring to (I re-read this thread and found no links), but if you're handing off sheet music to someone else, it's probably best to use a conventional major/minor key signature whenever possible. Phrygian, like any mode, is not all that unusual as it is based on intervals of the major scale, so the relative major (or minor) key signature should probably be used.

Phrygian dominant (with a raised third) however, could either have an odd key signature to account for the raised 3rd, or use accidentals. Think of the main guitar lead in The Offspring's "Come out and Play." Root, minor second, major third.


Here ya go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)
#28
Key is the pitch a phrase or piece of music resolves to. Strictly resolution. Literally anything else can happen and it doesn't change the key unless it changes what the music resolves to.

Key signature is just a number of sharps/flats on the staff to tell you that pitch. While it shows the sharps/flats you'd see in the regular old major or minor scale of the tonic, the music can contain any notes. Even in music where the tonic uses a mode like mixolydian or phrygian, you'll see the "normal" key signature because it's a standard indication.
#30
Quote by cdgraves
Key signature is just a number of sharps/flats on the staff to tell you that pitch. While it shows the sharps/flats you'd see in the regular old major or minor scale of the tonic, the music can contain any notes. Even in music where the tonic uses a mode like mixolydian or phrygian, you'll see the "normal" key signature because it's a standard indication.
A piece of music that resolves to two completely different pitches can have the same key signature. Therefore, on it's own a key signature can't tell you the pitch to which a piece of music resolves, which is exactly what you are saying it does.

A key signature does indicate the sharps or flats to be used throughout the entire piece (of course any of the notes can be temporarily altered at any time during the piece of music through the use of accidentals).
Si
#31
Quote by cjohnson122989
Phrygian dominant (with a raised third) however, could either have an odd key signature to account for the raised 3rd, or use accidentals. Think of the main guitar lead in The Offspring's "Come out and Play." Root, minor second, major third.


But that song is not in the phyrigian mode. From memory it's in the key of B minor. The guitarist uses accidentals.

A better example may be the intro of "Pay the Man" by The Offspring.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#32
Quote by AlanHB
But that song is not in the phyrigian mode. From memory it's in the key of B minor. The guitarist uses accidentals.

A better example may be the intro of "Pay the Man" by The Offspring.


I understand that normally you would have the key signature reflect the key of the chord progression, but I only meant to provide a popular example of the phrygian dominant sound (since modes are allegedly uncommon and useless ). The song "Come out and Play" may not be in the phrygian mode, but that main "egyptian" guitar lead toward the intro is indeed B phrygian dominant at that moment. Hence why I said "the main guitar lead" and not "the chord progression of the entire song." You could technically call any non-major scale a "major with accidentals," and that would tell somebody else nothing specific about it. This "minor-with-accidentals" scale in question happens to be phrygian dominant, so I called it by it's name.

Point is, you could use a major or minor key signature to indicate a melody that is in any standard mode of the major scale just as interchangeably as you would with C major and A minor. If you prefer to call a scale in the regular phrygian mode a minor scale with accidentals, that is entirely up to you.
#33
Quote by 20Tigers
What is a key? How do they work? What defines a key?
I'm just wondering, are you, yourself, able to answer these questions?

A key is defined by where the piece/progression/riff resolves to.

I really have no idea why you keep acting like I need to be questioned on shit like this.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at May 5, 2014,
#34
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
A key is defined by where the piece/progression/riff resolves to.

I really have no idea why you keep acting like I need to be questioned on shit like this.
That's a fair point and deserves an answer.

Your advice to him was:
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Might I suggest you learn what a key is, how it works, what defines a key, etc. BEFORE working on modes?

The answer you gave to those questions is this:

"A key is defined by where the piece/progression/riff resolves to."

It takes longer to post your suggestion that he find the answer to some questions than it does for you to post your answer to those same questions.

Why not save yourself (and him) some time and just get straight to the heart of the matter rather than making it seem like some complex mystery? (or maybe I'm being socratic - I sent you a PM)
Si
#35
Quote by cjohnson122989
I understand that normally you would have the key signature reflect the key of the chord progression, but I only meant to provide a popular example of the phrygian dominant sound (since modes are allegedly uncommon and useless ). The song "Come out and Play" may not be in the phrygian mode, but that main "egyptian" guitar lead toward the intro is indeed B phrygian dominant at that moment. Hence why I said "the main guitar lead" and not "the chord progression of the entire song." You could technically call any non-major scale a "major with accidentals," and that would tell somebody else nothing specific about it. This "minor-with-accidentals" scale in question happens to be phrygian dominant, so I called it by it's name.

Point is, you could use a major or minor key signature to indicate a melody that is in any standard mode of the major scale just as interchangeably as you would with C major and A minor. If you prefer to call a scale in the regular phrygian mode a minor scale with accidentals, that is entirely up to you.


Maybe I misunderstood your former post, I think we're on the same page however. Song isn't in phyrgian so the b2 would not be noted in the key signature.

Still check out "Pay the Man" though. Great song anyway.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#36
Quote by 20Tigers
That's a fair point and deserves an answer.

Your advice to him was:

The answer you gave to those questions is this:

"A key is defined by where the piece/progression/riff resolves to."

It takes longer to post your suggestion that he find the answer to some questions than it does for you to post your answer to those same questions.

Why not save yourself (and him) some time and just get straight to the heart of the matter rather than making it seem like some complex mystery? (or maybe I'm being socratic - I sent you a PM)

Lol, yeah. If it's something that can be explained in a single sentence, why not just say the answer instead of going like "In order to understand this, you need to know what X means. Well, too bad, because I'm not going to tell you."
#37
Quote by 20Tigers
That's a fair point and deserves an answer.

Your advice to him was:

The answer you gave to those questions is this:

"A key is defined by where the piece/progression/riff resolves to."

It takes longer to post your suggestion that he find the answer to some questions than it does for you to post your answer to those same questions.

Why not save yourself (and him) some time and just get straight to the heart of the matter rather than making it seem like some complex mystery? (or maybe I'm being socratic - I sent you a PM)


LOL

I noticed a similar thing in a music book I got recently (I think it was a piano book). It said it wasn't for everyone and listed the stuff you needed to know. It saidyou needed to know the notes of the treble clef and said it wasn't going to tell you (but IIRC had a slightly cryptic diagram of the clef anyway), and that if you couldn't figure them out yourself (or get someone to tell you) maybe music wasn't for you.

Now, I already know the treble clef but I thought that was very condescending, not to mention pointless- as you said it would have taken far less time to just tell you.

I didn't read any more of it. That'll show him.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#38
Quote by 20Tigers
That's a fair point and deserves an answer.

Your advice to him was:

The answer you gave to those questions is this:

"A key is defined by where the piece/progression/riff resolves to."

It takes longer to post your suggestion that he find the answer to some questions than it does for you to post your answer to those same questions.

Why not save yourself (and him) some time and just get straight to the heart of the matter rather than making it seem like some complex mystery? (or maybe I'm being socratic - I sent you a PM)

PM read and replied to. Thanks!

Quote by Elintasokas
Lol, yeah. If it's something that can be explained in a single sentence, why not just say the answer instead of going like "In order to understand this, you need to know what X means. Well, too bad, because I'm not going to tell you."

That wasn't really my aim. I was aiming to point him in the right direction, so to speak. My thoughts, "Well, if he spends 5 minutes looking up what a key is...then, maybe he'll get to some related (but very slightly) more advanced concepts, like chord construction, harmony, etc., etc., etc."
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at May 5, 2014,
#39
Quote by Dave_Mc
LOL

I noticed a similar thing in a music book I got recently (I think it was a piano book). It said it wasn't for everyone and listed the stuff you needed to know. It saidyou needed to know the notes of the treble clef and said it wasn't going to tell you (but IIRC had a slightly cryptic diagram of the clef anyway), and that if you couldn't figure them out yourself (or get someone to tell you) maybe music wasn't for you.

Wow, seriously? If everyone had that "go find the answer somewhere else" attitude, no one would ever learn anything. How does an editor allow something like that to make it to print???
Si
#40
^ Yeah. It left a really bad taste in my mouth (and I should clarify, when I wrote that, I didn't mean to imply that I thought crazysam23_Atax was anywhere near as bad as that, just what you said reminded me of it).

What I also found kind of bemusing was the fact that the book claimed to cut through the crap of stuffy music lessons and stuff like that and teach you the "real" meaning of music, how to make music on your own etc. I found it kind of ironic how the person writing the book was arguably even more annoying and condescending than the people he was complaining about.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385142633/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i03?ie=UTF8&psc=1#reader_0385142633

Yeah there on the bottom of page 7. I suppose they would claim it's aimed at people who had learnt before... but even still. It annoyed me, and I know the darn clef.
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I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

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Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

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Et tu, br00tz?
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