#1
I'm wondering if there are any other guitar players who also play a short scale six string bass ? I play both and switch back and forth during a gig. I find myself seriously looking at an Eden WT800 to replace the two different amps I now use. I tend to play very clean tone wise so the solid state won't bug me. I have another solid state amp that I love. And the Eden has a 12ax7 that can be put into the preamp which I probably would for the guitar anyway. I would then use a 12" or 15" sub woofer along w/ the EVM 12L's I now use. They just cannot cut it at the bottom of the bass. Probably just figure out an easy way to rolloff a little bit of the bottom when just playing guitar. It's all conjecture at this point. I would think that someone in the FRFR guitar community would have tried this? Any thoughts?
#2
I would get a tube amp and switch cabs for guitar or bass or find one that works for both. Something like an Ampeg V4B sounds great for both guitar and bass. I played guitar through one into a 6x10 and it just sounded like a really good guitar amp but it sounded equally good with a bass. A rig like that can be used for both with great results. But I was playing older models. I don't know how the newer models fare. But they have a 2x12 cabinet that would probably sound good for both guitar and bass. I think tube is the right way to go because a tube bass amps and tube guitar amps are extremely similar. But a SS bass amp is nothing like what you typically want in guitar amp, even if you're playing clean. Modern SS bass amps are very sterile. I'm planning on getting a Bass VI and I'm planning on using it with a guitar amp through a bass cab.

What are you currently playing through?
#3
Well, it's funny you should ask because I know you're just going to say,"DUH!". My favorite amp in my collection is a THD Flexi50. Only for guitar, bass sounds like absolute crap even though I put a pair of KT88 tubes in the power section. I love the thumping tight low end of those tubes. But it breaks up way too quick with a bass. I know a lot of tube bass amps use KT88s. I did also replace the 12ax7s with 5965s which are more like a lower gain tube like a 12at7. All that to rein in the gain of the amp which it has accomplished. I have been using my little back up amp, a Crate Power Block, for bass and that sounds really good. So in theory I guess I agree with the idea of a tube bass amp. I have played guitar through the Power Block I have to say it sounds pretty good too. The main problem is with the speakers I think. They just don't have the frequency response for anything above fairly quiet volume. Low E just farts out.
I am being lazy here, I'll admit it. But I have to think it is possible to have one bi-amped system that will sound good with both bass and guitar. I guess I was afraid that a tube bass amp would have too much break up for my taste. I should go somewhere and try on out with both instruments. Maybe I won't need to bi-amp?
#4
I heard a bass through a Rockerverb into a bass cab at a gig the other day and it sounded pretty damn good.
If you were to run it into EVM12L speakers I reckon you'd have a great multipurpose rig. EVM12L's work equally as well for both instruments. Actual bass speakers are usually pretty lack lustre for guitar, EVM12L's kick arse for everything.
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#5
Well I can't get a consistent clean sound putting bass into my EVs. They have a rated frequency response down to about 80Hz. Most bass speakers even at 12" seem to be rated closer to 40Hz. This is why I thought a bi-amped rig would be the best of both worlds. With the crossover set around 150-200 Hz. EVs on the top and a nice 15" bass cab on the bottom. I could then try the stereo effects run on top and bottom. I have never tried that so I have no idea how it might sound. Probably going to take some careful programming of patches but It should give a stereo field. Just that one "side" of the stereo will be all low frequencies and the other "side" will be all mids and highs. As we speak I'm looking around to see if there is such a thing as a tube bass amp with bi-amping. I doubt it. It'd have to be two complete amps, easy enough for solid state, not for tubes. I would give the stereo idea up to get a good sound on the bass and the guitar though. This damn Ibanez Crossover is destroying my peace of mind! But I love playing it now and I just have to go through the process of figuring out the best single rig for both.
#6
Different tools for different jobs. A bass actually sounds decent through a Fender Twin in a pinch but it's a lot tighter and better through a bass-tuned cab. A preamp like the POD and powered PA cab like a Mackie SRM450 might be your answer. Plenty of clean sound and good bass response to 50 hz. It won't have the punch of an Ampeg 8x10 cab but it sounds like good clean bottom is more important to you.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SRM450v2/

Large dedicated subs add power to PA rigs but have slow transient response compared to a good tuned instrument cab. Experiment a little with different setups to find what you are looking for.

I am an EVM fanboy and have owned a bunch of them over the years. They excel with voice and guitar but roll off quickly below 80hz so probably not the ideal bass speaker.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
Last edited by Cajundaddy at May 7, 2014,
#7
Would you like me to try my guitar through my bassists Little Mark Tube 800? He has the Mark 6x10. I suspect that it would do a pretty decent clean guitar sound. I've never tried it but I can if you like.
Gilchrist custom
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#8
Yeah, for a minute I thought about getting a Sansamp PSA1 for the warm tones. Then into a crossover and then some kind of bi-amping. I , too, love those EVM12L speakers. That's why I'm trying to figure out a way to keep them in the mix. Doesn't have to be a sub woofer. Unless you consider something like this a "sub", a Hartke HX115.
http://www.zzounds.com/item--HTKHX115
Has a frequency response down to 20Hz !!??!!. It does have a 1" compression driver but also a switch to take that out. I have never enjoyed the sound of a guitar through a hi-freq. compression driver.
#9
Quote by Cathbard
Would you like me to try my guitar through my bassists Little Mark Tube 800? He has the Mark 6x10. I suspect that it would do a pretty decent clean guitar sound. I've never tried it but I can if you like.

Sorry, I had to look that up. It looks fairly similar to the Eden I mentioned in that it has some 12ax7 in the preamp and I almost lost track of that fact. I would be really curious as to how that sounds. It should be quite a bit warmer than a purely solid state amp, no? I borrowed a re-issue Fender Bassman w/ four 10" Jensens I think it had. And that sound got under my skin. It had an amazing thump in the bottom that almost drum like. No effects loop though. And it is not going to break up for love of money. Have you ever tried out one of those? If it sounds anything like that, I will definitely like to know. I figure I have pedals to add more 'character' or grit to the guitar sound anyhow.
#10
The MarkBass uses an old American military 6205. It's a mini pentode that should last pretty much forever, well, a bloody long time anyway. You can alter how much the tube is actually used. It's not so much warmth that it adds as bite. Personally I think it a better amp than the Eden but that's just a matter of taste. I suspect that the Mark would be better for guitar.
I've used Bassmans for guitar of course but never bass.
If you are running an amp clean there is no real need for an FX loop unless you are trying to run old studio effects that require line level inputs.
Gilchrist custom
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Cathbard Amplification
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#11
Woah.... I just checked out the new Markbass Multiamp. It's basically a modeling amp for bass and has stereo or bi-amping. Should be able to introduce all kinds of character with that. I could even set up patches specifically for guitar and bass each. But looks to be waaay out of my budget. Dang. I may have to actually break down and sell something....
The effects loop would be for reverb, delay via a Lexicon MP1 or even a pedal. Just don't like to put those in front of an amp. Now that may be the old habits of a guitar player but you know what they say about old habits...
Last edited by atomheart411 at May 7, 2014,
#12
I haven't tried that but Mark stuff kicks arse, man. When my bassist bought his we A/B'ed a great shitload of amps and the MarkBass was a clear and obvious winner. He was initially going to buy an SVT7 but the MarkBass 800 blew it clean out of the water.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#13
Wow, really? That's a pretty strong recommendation. I saw some youtubes of similar amps and I thought I heard a bit of compression being introduced when the 12ax7s were brought in. Of course that was youtube. Never can really tell with that stuff.
#14
And the MarkBass 6x10 is incredible too. He's been using house cabs a lot with his head and it's nowhere near as good, even the GK cab. With those Neo speakers it weighs **** all too.
I've become a huge fan of MarkBass.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#15
Yeah, I can see why. It looks like the Multiamp may not be available in the US yet. I'm going over their website with a fine tooth comb right now. I'm going to guess that the "Classic 300" sounds aaaamazing. "The Classic 300 uses two ECC83 preamp tubes, two ECC99 tubes, and six KT88 power tubes". But without bi-amping I'd be looking for that 'bass' speaker that sounds good with guitar.
Yeah. if you have a chance to play through your bass players rig I'd love to know your impressions of amp AND cabinet. Thanks.
#16
I'll have a go at it tonight then and get back to you. What sort of guitar do you use? Just so I can try the right guitar, I've got several guitars, one of them is bound to be similar enough.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#17
Quote by atomheart411
I'm wondering if there are any other guitar players who also play a short scale six string bass ? I play both and switch back and forth during a gig. I find myself seriously looking at an Eden WT800 to replace the two different amps I now use. I tend to play very clean tone wise so the solid state won't bug me. I have another solid state amp that I love. And the Eden has a 12ax7 that can be put into the preamp which I probably would for the guitar anyway. I would then use a 12" or 15" sub woofer along w/ the EVM 12L's I now use. They just cannot cut it at the bottom of the bass. Probably just figure out an easy way to rolloff a little bit of the bottom when just playing guitar. It's all conjecture at this point. I would think that someone in the FRFR guitar community would have tried this? Any thoughts?

Nice!

I used an Orange Thunderverb 200 through a Fender 412 with EVM-12Ls for both bass and guitar. It was very sufficient for both but it would be unfair to compare it to a dedicated bass rig.

I like the Markass hybrids a lot, so much bang for the buck. I've gone through the various Little Marks and currently use the TTE 500 through a 215 with EV-15Bs.

Check out the Genz Benz GBE 1200 and ShuttleMAX12.2, too! Very nicely-priced and built like tanks.
#18
The cabinet is equally as important as the amp in getting good bass tone. Playing an amp through a bass cabinet is probably the single most important step in getting a rig to sound "bassy." You'll get more clarity, more depth, more fullness, and less distortion. I think it's very possible to find a rig for both guitar and bass without compromise. I recommend trying some bass cabs with your current amps and see how you like them. The right bass cab can sound good for guitar.
#19
@cathbard, sorry I missed that last post, dinner time in Norcal. My 1st guitar is usually a Godin Freeway, probably set more often in full humbuckers as opposed to split coils.

@lppon, do you play guitar through the EV15bs?
I'm faced with the choice of either looking for a 'bass' speaker that performs well for guitar OR a bi-amped system, which is more to my liking for a couple of reasons. I get to keep using the speakers I love (EVM12L ) and less turn over of gear, always a PITA. I just don't want the studio cluttered up with extraneous ocassional usage gear, if I can help it. Meanwhile I'm developing serious lust for that Markbass Classic300. My god that looks like a beast! At nearly 50lbs. though.... sheesh.
#20
I tried my Yamaha SG through it. That's basically a Les Paul. Same timber, same construction, same scale, even has Les Paul pups. So it should be close enough to your Godin for the situation.
It sounded ok. Lacking in top end a bit, as you would expect, but I was able to rectify that to some degree by putting an EQ in front of it (Dano Fish & Chips). It didn't really do a lot for the top highs though but it would certainly be useable for a lot of styles. Jazz sounded quite good on it. It would depend on what you are playing.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#21
Was that with the six 10"s ? Kind of surprising unless the HF compression driver was off? My experience with any such beast is to want to turn it off if possible. In any case this makes me re-inclined towards a bi-amp scenario. The highs in EVs are sweet. Just goes to show that all SS amps are not equal. I'm assuming that the tube made no appreciable difference?
I've been seriously looking into tube based bass amps, getting back to Jelifish's point. But no bi-amping going to happen there. Still thinking about that HatrkeHX115.
Sansamp PSA>crossover>power amp>EVm12L and Hartke 115 ?
#22
Through the 6x10. Tbh, I didn't think about the tweeter. I don't think he turns it off though.

I'll tell you how I'd do what you want. You play bass mostly, yes? If so, buy the best bass amp you can afford and get yourself a decent MFX (PodHD, GT-100, etc) for your guitar and plug that straight into the PA.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#23
Yeah, that's why I'm thinking Sansamp. It's basically an analog 'emulator', but sounds like it has tremendous flexibility. I'm going to go to GC and see if they have one of those Hartke cabinets I can check out. Worse case scenario I can bring the little old PowerBlock out to run it alone. Just have to put a switcher after my pedal board. I think that's job one- get a real bass cabinet. Thanks a lot for all the feedback,etc.
Here's hoping our Cali summer doesn't rival your's for all the wild fires. Ain't looking good though. Thanks again.
#24
My bass player has a Sansamp that he used to use until he bought the Mark. It's not as versatile as you may think, certainly not in the same league as a Pod or a GT-100
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#25
Okay, some FRFR stuff.

A lot of Bass players are moving from the rigs the average manufacturer puts out (1x15's, 4x10s) to something a bit more sophisticated. In particular, the higher end boys are moving toward what amount to FRFR designs with a lot of power handling and woofers that have some serious XMax. Alex Claber at BarefacedBass (dot com) in the You Kay and folks like Dave Green ("greenboy") in the You Ess are designing lighter weight cabinets designed with specific woofers (and mids and tweeters) in mind, most of which are neo based, most of which are done in lighter-weight plywood with well-thought-out bracing outperforming brute-force seriously thick (and heavy) plywood. The results include cabinets like the fEARful 15/6/1, which can be built in the 40-pound range, which houses an Eminence Kappalite 3015LF 15" woofer with nearly 4" of available voice coil excursion plus one of a couple of very cool high-power-handling 5 and 6" mids drivers and a 1" tweeter. These cabinets handle 900W or so each at 8 ohms and outperform 4x10s and easily fit into your Honda FIT or Civic's back seat. The cabinets are flat response (rather than exhibiting "baked-in" characteristic sounds) and go lower and higher than the usual suspects. In effect, they act like PA-type speakers...

For someone switching between, say, modeled guitar and six-string bass, starting with the cabinet (and specifically a cabinet like this) is the way to go. For someone like me, switching between modeled guitar, full-length 5-string bass and 88-note keyboards, these are a must. I power them with a Carvin HD1500 (about 900W bridged, mono, at 8 ohms, and 1400W bridged mono into 4 ohms (two cabinets)) or the equivalent. It takes far more air (perhaps 4X as much) moving to reproduce bass at the same volumes as the same note an octave up. In short, it's been a great solution.
#26
You're making a lot sense here. I had drawn up a list of 15" speakers to consider building my own cabinet around and there is a little asterix next to the Kappalite. The specs, freq. response, weight, sensitivity, etc are quite good. Looking at a whole host of specs led me to believe that it's still pretty hard to replace the sheer power of ferrite magnets. But clever cabinet design can sure make a big difference. And the weight is certainly worth trying to get to. Just to clarify, I may be living in a fools paradise but I don't see myself as a 'modeler'. I've come close to picking up a full fledged Eleven/axe/POD a couple of times. For recording those are an amazing tool. But, like today for example, when I plug into those EVM12l's and crank up the juice I just about piss myself on account of how much sheer joy it gives me. I have a few amps laying around but today I pulled out the Crate PowerBlock "backup" amp. Truth be told I've done whole series of gigs with that due to flight/cargo/costs. Giving credit where it's due, it was something that Frank Gambale said in an interview about the DV Multiamp (same manufacturer as Markbass I believe). He was talking about the bass response of solid state versus tube amps and how he felt it was just quicker, tighter. I gotta say I agree.
The funny thing is that some people refer to the PowerBlock as a tube "emulator". Can't really argue with that I suppose except to say that I just don't see it as the same animal. Did they fail? Spectacularly I'd say. I admit I always have a compressor first in line on my pedal board and that make a bit of difference in the "emulation" department. But I can play a 4 or 5 note 'jazz' chord and the clarity is phenomenal. Even with the short scale six string. Tons of punch. The main difference is down low and higher volume starts to fail. More head room, right? Yeah, if only. I suppose I could get two power blocks, each running in mono bridged to yield the full 150 watts. But, come on. How old is that technology? I have to believe that with all that's been going on in solid state amp development, especially in bass amps, that there exists a circuit that comes close to that feel.
Okay, I've dropped my drawers and let it all hang out so to speak. I know a lot of people have made careers out of dissing the PowerBlock so I don't expect universal love on this topic. But you can see where my logic leads me, right? A bi-amped bass amp with my beloved EVs and a sweet 15" bottom. One that hopefully has that thump and likes pedals. I play loud but not with a lot of distortion. Compression, hell yes. Somewhere between Holdsworth and Martino, shaken, strained and served at room temp. Which is all to say that you are making a lot of sense to me right now. FRFR may be the ultimate solution. Problem is I still am in love with the 'character' of my EVs. But as I do use a fair amount of effects(Eventide) fidelity is important to me. Am I schizophrenic and just don't know it? That name 'fearful' keeps showing up in my search. I will look into it. Thank you, now it's time for my medication. Where's that shaker?
#27
Don't worry about dspellman, he's a digital fanboi who thinks amps are a thing of the past.

Btw, the tweeter was turned off on the MarkBass when I tried it. I rang him and asked and the switch must have been knocked off last time he transported it. I'll try it again, hopefully today and get back to you.


Edit: OK I tried it again, this time with the tweeter on. Not too bad. I needed the EQ pedal to get a decent sound out of it but it wasn't bad at all. If I was to pick an amp similar I'd say Roland JC120. Not the same, but similar vibe. Certainly useable as a pedal platform.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at May 10, 2014,
#28
Oh , JC120 eh? Funny, I played the living hell out of one of those for many years. Just about broke my back but you couldn't kill with an A-bomb. It def had that thump, up to a point. Open back couldn't cope with extreme volume. It wasn't enough finally and I let it go. Still kind of wish I had it. But I just did an experiment A-B-ing the PowerBlock and the THD Flexi with the KT88s on board. I mean the Flexi rocks super hard. But the Power Block could not only keep up with it but was much more articulate/immediate in the response. I do believe that is a solid state quality. That and head room. That's what the Flexi lacks, headroom. I was recently reminded of the fact that KT88s can replace EL34s, with a biasing adjustment of course. Carvin owes me some money so I had the thought to spend it on a TS100. Just trying to find out if there's enough room inside for the much bigger bottles. Going to talk to one of their tech guys tomorrow. I figure a stereo power amp rated at 50 watts per side with a good preamp might get me there. I played through one of those before and was impressed at the clean,clean tone. Of course there's always the BX1500 bass amp.....
I don't believe that ANY solid state will act like the Power Block. There is def some mojo going on in there. It may just come down to buying a second Power Block and sticking them both on a shelf in a rack. Stick a preamp in front w/ a xover. Nah, too dorky. Just have to find one amp. Tomorrow I will go and ask the nice young man at the local GC if I could please play my geetar through one of his bass amps. That should be fun !
#29
If I had to I'd be happy to use his rig with a few pedals. Wouldn't that be funny? "My backup amp is a $3k 6x10 bass rig."

My backup amp is actually an old JCM900 combo.


Here's another option to consider. Get yourself a Randall RM100 and run it through the EVM12L's and stick one of these modules in one of the slots.

http://www.jadedfaithmods.com/svp.html

That would leave you two slots for your guitar modules.


Edit: In case you are wondering, the RM100's power amp would shit it in with bass. The amount of bass an RM can pump out is astounding. I have to be quite careful how high I turn up the bass on mine playing guitar because it gets overwhelming very easily. With an actual bass preamp like that SVP it'd have to be good.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at May 14, 2014,