#1
I understand some very basic theory and want to learn more.
What would really help me now is learning about what scales I'm playing and why they work where they do. Where is a useful place to find this information?

I know the pentatonic scales and why they work where they do, and the shape of the major scale. When I'm playing C # minor pentatonic, there's a 3 NPS scale starting w/ E that also works. Where can I find out more about this scale, why it works, and how to find it on the fretboard?
Last edited by RyanMW2010 at May 9, 2014,
#2
I'd learn the pentatonic in all modes, in all keys, all over the neck.

That should keep ya busy until you tell us what type of music you're trying to play.

To start by answering your other question i'd open one of these....

#3
The short answer is that the C minor pent shares the G note with a flat 2nd which is a common interval in much jazz and blues.
#4
Quote by RyanMW2010
I know the pentatonic scales and why they work where they do, and the shape of the major scale. When I'm playing C minor pentatonic, there's a 3 NPS scale starting w/ E that also works. Where can I find out more about this scale, why it works, and how to find it on the fretboard?


C minor pentatonic doesn't have an E in it. Do you mean C# minor pentatonic?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#5
Quote by AlanHB
C minor pentatonic doesn't have an E in it. Do you mean C# minor pentatonic?


Yes! oops.
#6
Hi Ryan

It sounds like you want to get down to learning the fundamentals, the nut and bolts of music theory, chords, scales etc.

The best advice I could give would be to study with the Registry of guitar tutors.

http://www.rgt.org/

It's nice to be able to play other peoples music but it's even better to understand what they've written. It's also nice to know how to write your own music!

I've been studying RGT for the last few years after a long break from the guitar and it's the best thing I ever did. I would also advise getting a teacher that's familiar with RGT who can coach you towards each grade.

Go for it, you won't regret it!

And no I don't work for RGT!..lol
#7
Quote by RyanMW2010
Yes! oops.


No worries. Assuming you weren't playing along with a backing track, your answer is:

C# minor pentatonic and E major pentatonic share the same notes.

The reason you like the sound of the C# minor pentatonic starting on E is that you are actually playing the E major pentatonic.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#8
Quote by aps7393
The short answer is that the C minor pent shares the G note with a flat 2nd which is a common interval in much jazz and blues.


Mate this and your previous answer make no sense. However you read your book backwards so you are excused.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#9
Quote by RyanMW2010
Yes! oops.

Irrelevant. The is E used as a chromatic stepping stone, if you will, in phrasing similar to blues and jazz.
#10
Quote by aps7393
Irrelevant. The is E used as a chromatic stepping stone, if you will, in phrasing similar to blues and jazz.

Turns out he did actually mean C#minor instead of C minor so it's quite relevant.

Unless you don't consider there to be a relevant difference between C#minor and C minor.
Si
#11
Quote by aps7393
Irrelevant. The is E used as a chromatic stepping stone, if you will, in phrasing similar to blues and jazz.


If you are playing the E major pentatonic, why would you treat the E as a chromatic stepping stone?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#12
I was playing over a C#m, B, G#min7, F#min7 progression. The C# minor pentatonic worked, but there was also the major sounding scale starting w/ E that worked, but wasn't E major. It was 3 NPS. I come across these scales a lot. How do i find out what they're called, their shapes and how to use them?
#13
Quote by RyanMW2010
I was playing over a C#m, B, G#min7, F#min7 progression. The C# minor pentatonic worked, but there was also the major sounding scale starting w/ E that worked, but wasn't E major.

Despite the fact that it was an E scale, the key was actually C#minor. Even if some of the notes weren't considered diatonic (read: notes included in the key signature; which are C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A, & B since this is the key of C#minor)...then that wouldn't change the key. If you want to know more, I'm sure myself and others could assist you with learning basic functional harmony.

Edit:
Could you identify the note names of the E scale you used? That may help us figure out what's going on here.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at May 9, 2014,
#14
On keys: if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

The only thing you can do is play lots of music and find out (by research if necessary) what the key is.
Numeral analysis is helpful for chord progressions but not necessary. If your piece has all the notes of a cmin scale then it's probably cmin
#15
Quote by RyanMW2010
I was playing over a C#m, B, G#min7, F#min7 progression. The C# minor pentatonic worked, but there was also the major sounding scale starting w/ E that worked, but wasn't E major. It was 3 NPS. I come across these scales a lot. How do i find out what they're called, their shapes and how to use them?


As noted above your song was in the key of C# minor.

Considering the relationship between the scales, I bet $10 that you were playing the same C# minor scale in a different position on the neck.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#16
Quote by AlanHB
As noted above your song was in the key of C# minor.

Considering the relationship between the scales, I bet $10 that you were playing the same C# minor scale in a different position on the neck.


This. If you want to know the name, it's just E major pentatonic

Or

A five note scale with a major second, major third, P5 and major 6

Or

An interval cycle of fifths terminating at the 5th interval

Or

Pitch class set (O,2,4,7,9)

Or

A major scale with no leading tones
#17
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Despite the fact that it was an E scale, the key was actually C#minor. Even if some of the notes weren't considered diatonic (read: notes included in the key signature; which are C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A, & B since this is the key of C#minor)...then that wouldn't change the key. If you want to know more, I'm sure myself and others could assist you with learning basic functional harmony.

Edit:
Could you identify the note names of the E scale you used? That may help us figure out what's going on here.


Oops, it starts w/ C#, not E.
These are the notes of the scale I'm curious about:

C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E

I guess I didn't need to write all of that out, but those are the notes as I play them from the C# on the low E, 9th fret, to the E on the high E, 12th fret.
Last edited by RyanMW2010 at May 10, 2014,
#19
Quote by RyanMW2010
Okay, that's the natural minor scale, right? Googled it, lol.


Yes, the C# minor scale. Meaning that you started playing the C# minor scale but skipped two notes for fun, then you played the C# minor scale with all the notes, and AlanHB won $10.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#21
Quote by RyanMW2010
Oops, it starts w/ C#, not E.
These are the notes of the scale I'm curious about:

C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E

I guess I didn't need to write all of that out, but those are the notes as I play them from the C# on the low E, 9th fret, to the E on the high E, 12th fret.

Ok...that's the just notes of the C#minor scale.

Let's do a quick exercise though. What if you started on E? So, it went something like: E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#? What then? Well, your key is still C#minor, so you're still playing a melody in C#minor.
What if we use a flat a few of the notes (just for fun)? So...maybe we use E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D? 2 things happen. 1) We now have to be a bit careful where we play those notes. (D against the C#min won't sound good, neither will G against the G#min7 chord.) 2) The key of our melody is STILL C#minor. It's just that now we have non-diatonic notes (read: notes that are outside the key signature).

My whole point here is that key is determined ONLY by where the song/piece/progression resolves. Your progression resolves to C#minor; therefore, that's the key. Make sense?
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at May 10, 2014,
#22
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Ok...that's the just notes of the C#minor scale.

Let's do a quick exercise though. What if you started on E? So, it went something like: E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#? What then? Well, your key is still C#minor, so you're still playing a melody in C#minor.
What if we use a flat a few of the notes (just for fun)? So...maybe we use E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D? 2 things happen. 1) We now have to be a bit careful where we play those notes. (D against the C#min won't sound good, neither will G against the G#min7 chord.) 2) The key of our melody is STILL C#minor. It's just that now we have non-diatonic notes (read: notes that are outside the key signature).

My whole point here is that key is determined ONLY by where the song/piece/progression resolves. Your progression resolves to C#minor; therefore, that's the key. Make sense?


Yes! Thanks
#24
Quote by RyanMW2010
How do i find out what they're called, their shapes and how to use them?


To do all that, I'd suggest learning music theory. Those are all skill sets that come from a study and application of theory, starting at the basics. I mean its not hard to get there, I teach it all the time. There are tons of books and ways to get there, and people on this forum might suggest a few self-taught approaches like music theory.net. Mike Dodge also teaches it for free.

But those are all just notes of the C# minor scale, and it helps to see that in context of what you think the Key is or the note that seems to finish the progression if it were to end at that moment.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at May 11, 2014,