#1
Something crossed my mind while reading another thread. I know MT has a phobia of calling anything a mode, which I can understand, so heres my question.

Do you consider the common practice substitution of mixolydian for major, and dorian for minor in jazz to be using modes?

Feel free to post just a simple yes or no, or add anything else if you like

#2
If you're substituting mixolydian for major for one particular line, I don't think it's fair to call it modal in a strict sense of the word. You're using accidentals that allude to a particular mode for a second, then you come back to home base.
#3
Quote by TV-Casualty
If you're substituting mixolydian for major for one particular line, I don't think it's fair to call it modal in a strict sense of the word. You're using accidentals that allude to a particular mode for a second, then you come back to home base.


I had several jazz teachers whom all taught be to play b7 over all major chords (unless maj7 was specifically notated) and dorian over all minor chords (unless b6 is specifically notated, which is much more rare than maj7)

Also, a follow up question that anyone can answer:

How do you define modal in the strict sense of the word?
#4
Quote by bassalloverthe
Do you consider the common practice substitution of mixolydian for major, and dorian for minor in jazz to be using modes?

I would just call that major with accidentals and minor with accidentals. To be truly modal, imho, there needs to be modal harmony. And most Jazz is based on tonal harmony.
#5
Quote by bassalloverthe
I had several jazz teachers whom all taught be to play b7 over all major chords (unless maj7 was specifically notated) and dorian over all minor chords (unless b6 is specifically notated, which is much more rare than maj7)

Also, a follow up question that anyone can answer:

How do you define modal in the strict sense of the word?


A b7 over a dominant chord makes sense. Over a M7 chord it makes no sense if you're trying to target chord tones.

As for the dorian thing, you can do it, but again if your goal is to target chord tones it doesn't always make sense.
#6
Why are people so curious about modal music? The Major and Minor scale will serve you with limitless possibilities for the rest of your life. Of course though I do not think it would be wrong to say the natural minor scale is technically a "mode"
#7
learn a natural scale, take that scale and disregard anything about modes, and remember fifth string positions in the scale, remember those bar chords u learn? any where u would play those chords play your solo in that area, and voila your on the road to modes, even tho u dont know the names yet, theres a lotttttttttttttttttttttttttt more to it than just that, but i had a guy tell me something kinda like that and it helped alot in the beginning and over time i just started learning more specific things : )
#8
Quote by TV-Casualty
If you're substituting mixolydian for major for one particular line, I don't think it's fair to call it modal in a strict sense of the word. You're using accidentals that allude to a particular mode for a second, then you come back to home base.


This. This is basically how I see it. Here is an example: If an Amaj7#11 comes up. Im not thinking "OH I NEED TO PLAY A LYDIAN NAAAOOO!" I just play A maj with a #4. Im not for one to memorize all the modal names. Even though by now through jazz in college, with everyone saying like "Lydian Dominant over any b7#11 chord." I just try to recognize the accidentals and add them to whatever the basic harmony is. IE Major or Minor.


Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I would just call that major with accidentals and minor with accidentals. To be truly modal, imho, there needs to be modal harmony. And most Jazz is based on tonal harmony.


And This.

If you want to get that Modal sound. Progression wise, its going to be very limited. Usually one or two chords using a vamp or a consistent pedal tone.



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#10
Quote by bassalloverthe
I had several jazz teachers whom all taught be to play b7 over all major chords (unless maj7 was specifically notated) and dorian over all minor chords (unless b6 is specifically notated, which is much more rare than maj7)


To determine whether a song is "in a mode" or not, you must analyse the chord progression, not the notes you play over it.

If after analysing the chord progression you find it to be in a key, then it is not in a mode, and everything you play over it will function as either the major or minor scale rather than a mode.
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#11
Quote by bassalloverthe
Something crossed my mind while reading another thread. I know MT has a phobia of calling anything a mode, which I can understand, so heres my question.

Do you consider the common practice substitution of mixolydian for major, and dorian for minor in jazz to be using modes?

Feel free to post just a simple yes or no, or add anything else if you like

You're generalizing, though I understand.

And yes.

EDIT: I was thinking of it being used over the entire progression in which case I do consider it to be using modes. In this sense my interpretation would be different from AlanHB. If you're changing modes over each chord then I'm with Sean: CST, not modes. However if that chord is held long enough to develop a complete melodic idea...then maybe.

Modal in a strict definition would be "of or relating to modes". A mode is the set of notes that make up the tonal character of a piece of music. Thus every piece of music is modal and major and minor are modes.

However, in normal usage the term modal is usually restricted to describing music that uses modes other than the major or minor modes. What determines whether a note is part of the set of notes that make up the tonal character of a piece of music is down to it's tonal importance and whether it forms a distinctive sonic relationship with the tonic as opposed to an ornamental chromatic note.
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#12
I tend to see it as mentioned by others here, as (depending on how concrete/cloudy you want to go with it) major or minor with alterations or accidentals, chord-scale theory, (attentively using the ear?), etc. I also interpret or perceive things in a non-analytic sense as ragas, in the way presented by Hindustani and Carnatic music from India and neighbors.
You might could use some double modals.
#13
Quote by Unreal T
Why are people so curious about modal music? The Major and Minor scale will serve you with limitless possibilities for the rest of your life. Of course though I do not think it would be wrong to say the natural minor scale is technically a "mode"

No, just using major and minor scale is many times limiting. You are allowed to use accidentals too. Also, many songs do use modal scales (I'm talking about dorian, mixolydian, etc) but they are still tonal. Being in a major key doesn't mean you can't use notes outside of the major scale. Many songs in A major use A mixolydian scale. But they are still tonal.
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