#1
Hi all,

I am still somehwhat of a newb. although I have been jamming around for several years. I know natural scales when I see them, diatonic chords etc. Using the nashvile system I get a little confused when I see things like bIII and bii, would that mean Eb minor and Db minor in C? someone told me that a bii is always a diminished triad?
I have no idea what the non-diatonic chords of scales would be.

Also, I have heard about arranging primary secondary tertiary chords and outside chords, does this mean what ever chord you are on you have 3 or 4 types of options and then you sum it up with a turn around?

Is there some kind of law that says for a generic major chord your primary options = etc etc

cheers
#2
Okay so the whole bIII and bii thing is really simple. Its based on a major scale with no accidentals where i=the tonic, ii=supertonic, iii=mediant (third). B is vii, and the pattern restarts at the octave. So if you are in the key of C, and you see any kind of I or i, the chord will always be some kind of C chord. II or ii is always some sort of D chord (D is always the root). III is E, IV is F, etc. Flats and sharps simply add an accidental, so bIII is some sort of chord with Eb as the root. You have to be aware of what key you are in to use this system. So a C major scale built diatonically with no accidentals looks like:
I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii(dim)

Whether the chord is major or minor is notated by either upper case or lower case numerals. Upper case numerals are always major (I=Cmaj, IV=Fmaj). Lower case numerals always have a minor third (ii=Dmin, i=Cmin, iv=Fmin)

Sometimes, there are extra markings. A plus sign (+) means augmented. A triangle will mean play a major seventh. A circle with a line through it is half diminished, and a circle with no line is either a diminished triad or fully diminished 7th.

To answer your final question, yes. Its sometimes called the "harmonic progression road map" or "chord progression map" and there is one for major, and one in minor. Go to page four of this link under the heading "preliminaries." http://jerodsommerfeldt.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/mus102-vlandchorale.pdf

Creating chords diatonically means you pick any root note from the scale, then play the diatonic third and diatonic fifth from root not. For instance, if you want to play a diatonic E chord in C maj, you would start at E. Now you go up to the nearest third, G. Now up to the nearest fifth, B. So the chord is E G B. E minor, notated in numerals as iii. If you wanted to play an E major chord, you would sharp the G and write III, but you would no longer be playing diatonically because G# is not in a C major scale

Most non-diatonic chords are secondary dominants, or closely related to a secondary dominant. I recommend you digest this new info for a few days and then take on the out of key chords. Practice playing a C major scale diatonically in triads for a week or so
Last edited by bassalloverthe at May 23, 2014,
#3
Quote by 094568029434geo
Hi all,

I am still somehwhat of a newb. although I have been jamming around for several years. I know natural scales when I see them, diatonic chords etc. Using the nashvile system I get a little confused when I see things like bIII and bii, would that mean Eb minor and Db minor in C? someone told me that a bii is always a diminished triad?
I have no idea what the non-diatonic chords of scales would be.


You have that almost right. In C, the bIII is the flat three - but those roman numerals are capitalized, so it's a major chord. The three is E, so flat it'd be Eb, So Eb major.

The bii is the flat two minor, so Db minor.

The most common non-diatonic chords in a major key are the bVII (Bb in C) the bVI (Ab) the bIII (Eb), the II (D) also called the V of V (five of five) and the iv (Fm). But you also see others - but for most popular (non Jazz) music those are the chords you're going to be dealing with. But the reality is that you can use any chord at any time if you like the sound of it.

You'll notice that the bIII, bVI, bVII and iv are all chords from the parallel minor key - they're all major chords in the key of C minor.



Also, I have heard about arranging primary secondary tertiary chords and outside chords, does this mean what ever chord you are on you have 3 or 4 types of options and then you sum it up with a turn around?


I don't understand this question.


Is there some kind of law that says for a generic major chord your primary options = etc etc


Yes, the FBI sends a SWAT team to your house if you break the law and use the wrong chords.

Really, what you need to do is learn to compose musically, rather than academically. The laws are useful for learning concepts, but good music isn't composed by saying, "Well, I have four types of chords I could use here, I'll use that one because I haven't used it in a while."

What you want to do is to internalize the sound of the different chord types. Listen to music you love. Identify the chords they're using. Practice making music with them.

Start with the basic triads. Just get comfortable with their sounds, major and minor. Then add the 7ths chords, then diminished and augmentd. But again, learn these IN THE CONTEXT OF SONGS so that you can identify the SOUNDS in practice.

Once you have internalized the sounds, you will probably discover that you naturally compose with those chords without trying. You will want to hear the sound of a particular chord, and so you'll play it. But that doesn't happen until you have hear them in practice.
Last edited by HotspurJr at May 23, 2014,
#4

Hi,

So a bVII,BVI and BIII are major triad? Thank you for the minor vi and major II.

When I see a chord like the above i think , oh great Looks to me like some kind of modulation to Eb Ab etc as they can all funtion as 2 3 6 of other keys. This is where I seem to be going round in circles and perhaps missing the point.

My initial guitar lessons explored 2 3 4 5 chord tricks etc. Then I learnt the 12 bar blues and the ideas of relative majors and minors. But I still don't seem to be able to finish an arrangment. I assumed after learning 1 4 5 and 251 concepts that they were attributed to verse structures like "autumn leaves" etc. But when i research resolving chords and turn arounds they also seem to work iwth 145 251. So I feel lost.

intro: 2 chord trick
verse: 4 chord trick
chrous: relative minors/majors
middle8: ?
outro: ?

I'm not sure I understand what I am working towards? Is ther a book or video around?

If I see a figure such as viiø7/V what does the /V mean? Does it mean F#ø7 in C? F# is the 6 of G which is the 5 of C?
Last edited by 094568029434geo at May 24, 2014,
#5
Quote by 094568029434geo
Hi,

So a bVII,BVI and BIII are major triad? Thank you for the minor vi and major II.

When I see a chord like the above i think , oh great Looks to me like some kind of modulation to Eb Ab etc as they can all funtion as 2 3 6 of other keys. This is where I seem to be going round in circles and perhaps missing the point.

My initial guitar lessons explored 2 3 4 5 chord tricks etc. Then I learnt the 12 bar blues and the ideas of relative majors and minors. But I still don't seem to be able to finish an arrangment. I assumed after learning 1 4 5 and 251 concepts that they were attributed to verse structures like "autumn leaves" etc. But when i research resolving chords and turn arounds they also seem to work iwth 145 251. So I feel lost.

intro: 2 chord trick
verse: 4 chord trick
chrous: relative minors/majors
middle8: ?
outro: ?

I'm not sure I understand what I am working towards? Is ther a book or video around?

If I see a figure such as viiø7/V what does the /V mean? Does it mean F#ø7 in C? F# is the 6 of G which is the 5 of C?



You are not wrong associated borrowed chords with the keys they come from. In fact, keys that share many chords are closely related. Keys which share no or few chords are distantly related. You dont always need to analyze everything as a strict modulation, but its good that you realize both when you are temporarily implying another key, and which key it is.

bIII and bVII are both major triads. In the key of C, bIII is an Ebmaj and bVII is Bbmaj. Both these chords are found in the parallel minor, Cminor, so that is most likely the key they are borrowed from.

V/x is whats called a secondary dominant. For instance, you are in C and ultimately want to finish the progression with V-I. In this key, V is G. A common move is to borrow V from the key of G, which would be Dmajor (Dmaj does not occur in the Cmaj scale). The Dmaj is now a borrowed chord used to approach Gmaj. Since its a borrowed V chord, its notated as V/x. X of course referring to the note of the scale you are tonicising with the V chord. In this case, you are tonicising the G, which is the fifth note of a C major scale. So you are on V/V

You can do this to any chord (V/vi, V7/IV, V/bIII) The exact same rules apply to vii chords (vii/V, etc)

In conclusion, the example you gave was correct. However, its not because F# is a 6th from G (its not btw, its a major 7th), its because F#dim is the viidim of X. X, in this case is V. V translates to G in C major

This type of analysis was invented to analyze baroque and classical music, so it makes the most sense there. Its also extremely useful for reading lead sheets in jazz. Personally, I find it useful in pop music because its one more method of predicting and interpreting music.

Also, writing songs is not about putting tricks or chord progressions. You could very well have a song with one chord. Writing a song is about complete execution of your musical intent

@hotspur, why are you trying to be the free jazz punk? Of course there are no music police, but there does exist something that fits OPs description: the harmonic progression road map, and its standard material taught in conjunction with the rest of numeral analysis
Last edited by bassalloverthe at May 24, 2014,
#6
Quote by 094568029434geo


intro: 2 chord trick
verse: 4 chord trick
chrous: relative minors/majors
middle8: ?
outro: ?

I'm not sure I understand what I am working towards? Is ther a book or video around?


You're thinking too much.

This is a hard concept for people to get, sometimes, but it's important:

You can't think your way through creating music. You want a middle 8, you want an outtro, great. You have to listen to the song inside your head until you know what you want to hear.

There are common approaches, but they vary by genre. The right thing to do is to study songs you love, by ear, and transcribe them and figure out their harmony. The more you do that the more you'll be able to hear different concepts in your head when you want to compose.

The best book I know for all this stuff is "Songwriting Secrets of the Beatles" by Pedler. Really great stuff.
#7
Quote by HotspurJr
The right thing to do is to study songs you love, by ear, and transcribe them and figure out their harmony.



Isnt that what hes trying to do by learning numeral analysis
#8
Quote by bassalloverthe


This type of analysis was invented to analyze baroque and classical music, so it makes the most sense there. Its also extremely useful for reading lead sheets in jazz...


Thank you for highlighting that as a student guitarist, learning modern conteporary gutiar (pop/indie/folk) songwriting we/I can confuse princials of classical and 20thC Jazz. Country and western style seems to be the finite example of modern song writing that translates to what we hear on the radio in rock/pop of the 70s/80s/90s. A while ago, I became bemused with concepts of N6 It6 GR6 (tristian und isolade) chords and attempted to realise them to an ultimate diatonic principal for chord selection. I have become lost before browsing the chords of the hypo-modal scales etc.

I appreciate the relative minor idea, some kind of hybrid theory? I have read the idea in terms of uisng major and minor pentatonic simultaneously before only. It gives me more options than the standard diatonic 7ths which is the ultimate aim of this thread. Unterstanding all the possible chords from a singular tonic.

I have read more about secondary and tertiary chords. In one example they were explained as primary being major triads, secondary being minor triads and tertiary being diminished/augmented. In another example I read that tertiary substituion is replacing a chord chord with one that is a thrid above or below it, and of modal substituion... This is where my understanding of modulation becomes clouded. In another expample I read that primary chords are 1 4 5 and secondary are 2 3 6 7 leaving tertiary to be chords out side the tonic, which was my initial interpretation of the terms when i started the thread.

In terms of sequencing chords I have seen diagrams offering visual guides to chord substituion, cycling and resolving. I believed that there may be a determinative selection from one tonic degree to the next. I can not find the answer.

I ask the question "do we ever really change key?" It appears we seem to relate all the chords (V7/ii vi/VI ) back to the initial tonic regardless?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUwIDafNTTc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rf9p95KkMM
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2y7gk_barney-kessel-stella-by-starlight-v_music
#9
^ Thats a big post, but Ill try to respond to all of it.

First of all, dont feel bad about mixing up the reals for jazz and classical. They are actually very similar in the way that chords work--its mostly aesthetic differences, not functional. Good voice leading in jazz is very similar to good voice leading in classical

As a guitarist who is not trying to write Bach chorales, forget about N6 I6 etc. Learn what a "tritone sub" is, and remember that the nationalist naming convention applies to specific voicings of a tritone sub. Forget you ever heard the term "Tristan Chord." Its a term that only exists because of the cult around Wagner, and I havent seen a score in a while, but I seem to remember it being easily analyzed as an altered chord of some sort.

Parallel keys are not "hybrid theory," its actually just a normal part of common practice that you would learn in the first 3 months of a class called "Music theory 101."

When people are talking about tertiary harmonies, they are talking about any chords with 9ths or greater. Visualize C9 on a piano. If you take the triad built off C, youve got C E G, a major triad. Now build a triad off the G. Youve got G Bb and D, a minor chord. Essentially, its a way of viewing extended chords as two chords stacked on top of each other. Jazz players also do this with tetra chords (Lydian tetrachord+major tetrachord=Lydian. Minor tetrachord+major tetrachord=Melodic minor)

Modulation or substitution by third is so common because think of how many notes Gminor and Ebmaj7 share. Beethoven LOVES to modulate down by third.

If you are looking for the harmonic progression roadmap, which tells you what chord comes after what chord, see my the link in my original post. Its on page 4 of that link

Yes, we DO modulate. I dont analyze much jazz, so I wont talk about that, but in classical music, a song may modulate keys in the middle, and then remain in the new key for the rest of the song.
Last edited by bassalloverthe at May 26, 2014,
#10
Quote by bassalloverthe
^ "Music theory 101."

.


this is great and new to me!

Altered chords, close related and distant keys, tritone substituion , secondary dominant substituion... I feel like I can identify primary secondary and tertiary chords where before the terms had no meaning. Also, thanks to your hint I can possibly target modes seeing that they are relaint on extended tetrachords. However I am not sure I am 100% on your definition:

(Lydian tetrachord+major tetrachord=Lydian. Minor tetrachord+major tetrachord=Melodic minor)


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 11 13
c d e f g a b c d f a

cegb d f a I iii V Vii IV vi i can see all these diatonic chords in Cmaj13 they are all
dfac e g b ii IV vi iii V vii ii13 chords a third away from each other
egbd f A C iii V ii IV vi I iii13
face gbd IV vi I iii V vii ii
gbdf a c e V vii ii IV vi I iii
aceg b d f vi I iii V vii ii IV
bdfa c e g vii ii IV vi I iii V

3:4 4:3 tone apart ?

ceg +dfa? dfa+egb? iii= emin+ fmaj = Fmel minor?
fmaj + Gmaj = Gmixo?

I can see a reoccuring cycle of chords built from a 3rd degree but I am not sure I see your hint: (Lydian tetrachord+major tetrachord=Lydian. Minor tetrachord+major tetrachord=Melodic minor), can you illustrate it further?


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